What would YOU want to hear at church?
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Profound statement but probably true. (You didn't steal that from Yogi, did you?)
That mean to show that verse is accurate you should be able to show 'other Scripture' that supports that particular view. It does not mean all other textbooks of any kind that can be found in the world must agree. If I was to 'set out to prover resurrection means coming out of the physical grave' I would have to find some passages that reference that happening from other places in the Bible (Scripture, the beginning and the end of the reference material) If you were to test the verses at IIThess:2:1-5 you would be supplying references to other passages, such as the 3 trumps that are called woes. Combine those and you have something that has been questioned and that is the 'good part'. Thess tell us that the dead will be gathered before the living are and the gathering is after Satan has been 'doing great things'. That is what has to be proved, does it mean what it 'plainly says'?
Here's a update on something you mentioned a page or two back. Adam and Eve were not made perfect when they should have been (or something along those lines). At the end of the 6th day things were not said to be 'perfect', the state they were in was close to perfect but there was an weak link between there and perfection. Law and sin can happen even when things are 'very good', Law can happen but sin cannot happen in a 'perfect world' which is the way thing are starting the day of return. The first 'group of people' that realize that kind of world are the ones that are to be alive for the 1,000 year reign after the return. In that time the temple described in Ezekiel is said to be in effect. Part of the description says there will be a way for blood sacrifice to take place for the remission of sin (or something like that). With a people that are 'perfect in heart as far as Law is concerned' temptation never enters their thoughts so no sinful acts would take place and no sacrifice for sin would be needed. You can put that 'proof' together as there are passages to point to that being the case. What would you hope to prove by taking the opening question to a library of books that have nothing at all to do with Biblical prophecy?
If you put stepping stones like that in front of yourself you will never be able to connect the dots that leads to the Bible being 'above interesting' as far as reading material goes. If you read the first verse in Genesis and balk at going any further until it is 'proven' then expect to be in that same spot for quite some time. The way it works is you should keep skimming over various parts and you will pick up a bit here and there, sooner or later that first verse will have it's question answered, starting with it has a few verses and other topics have many more verses, which should you be studying if knowledge is your goal?
Moses was still raised by his natural mother, he would have learned the Hebrew ways but not taught them any of the Egyptian ways. I doubt those other Gods would have had them spreading blood on their houses to keep them safe and leave everybody else unprotected.
Why were they even still there, some 430 years after they got there while escaping a famine? Shouldn't they have 'gone home' about 420 years earlier?
Is 430 years the time it takes to be a member of that nation, they were Egyptians more than they were Hebrew by that time. By taking up the 'labor class' they were a 'prized possession', in the exile after 70AD when they got involved in ploitics and banking they faced endless exile. Perhaps that was 'plan 'B'' if the 7 plagues didn't work.
I have a book that gives me a 'animated view' of how I am supposed to picture it. Some of the things that Revelation covers is very detailed, nobody is real big on reading all the reference material, a nice summary in 10 words or less. Yes, there is a plan, a very, very good plan.
LOL, the biblical God show no mercy to any. He is portrayed as an evil tyrant. I may make mistakes, I do not consider them sins and I learn from them This is what growing up or older is all about. One may make a mistake, but as far as I know, few actually practice making them.
What a bunch of nonsense......free to do what I ought to?? Who decides that, but myself. Ergo, I am free. What exactly is the purpose of anyone's life?? Certainly not to spend it on one's knees wondering if such a position is pleasing to an autocratic, prejudical tyrant, who's main aim is in having blind worshippers.
I have learned that guilt is a useless an emotion, which came from open eyes.
Christians have historically been understood as those who accept the Biblical version of the gospel, and the Bible as God's word. Those who reject the Bible have been understood as heretics and enemies of Christ.
The Bible is either God's word, or it is not. If it is not, then what has your version of "God" given you to understand and discern truth? What is your foundation? Dreams?
That sort of attitude under-girds the destruction of our post-modern, sophisticated Western culture that is falling apart because of its rejection of God.
Any follower has a voice, patriots believe anything the Gov says, the Flock believes anything the Priests say and the Shareholders believe anything the Banks say, that a lot of voices to not be influenced to some degree.. Do you call reading Scripture 'hearing voices'?
And who are you to say what those other Gods would or wouldn't want? Who is to say Ra or Osiris would have not wanted the Hebrews protected. Who are you to say they would not forgo punishing their own people to prove a point? After all, your version of God has supposedly punished his own people before. So why not other Gods?
If the stories are even true which, as mentioned, there's no sign of a "Moses" being adopted into a royal house or anything.
I said maybe, and to answer that - free will. Just because it's what Gods wanted, doesn't mean humans will always follow their wants. Free will is a dictate no God can predict, IMO.
I've read a trilogy of books too that depicts the "end times". It's called the "Genesis of Shannara" and just about as truthful and apocalyptic as your Bible is, full of demons and magic and all sorts of weird things. No reason why it can't be as legitimate as the Bible.
No, the Western Culture is falling apart because we're human and socially we go in cycles, and this cycle is heading towards its end.
But you don't see my joy. My greatest grief right now, is over you.
I have heard and I have understood what "everyone here has replied" with. I just don't agree. Is that what you mean? If I am blind for refusing to embrace what you say, then I'll accept your diagnosis. By this same use of the word "blind," you'll be diagnosed as blind to the truths of the Bible.
Seeing as you don't know me, or anything much about me, I hardly think you are grieving. That's just a BS excuse to make people think Christians give a crap about "us heathens".
If you've joy, good on you.
That's not what I meant by blind, which proves you've not learned or read a damned thing.
As it is, I'm not "Blind to the truth of the Bible", I'm quite willing to accept the Bible has SOME things in it that are truth of God. Some, not all of it, not every word and every story.
That's part of my "faith", that even as corrupted as your Bible is, there may be some grains of truth in it, just as there are grains of truth in all religions.
I'm just "blind" to YOUR supposed truths of the Bible, because they are your truths, and nothing more.
What you don't understand is when you think the Bible is irrational then a rational conversation goes out the window before it ever starts. for instance, the water for the flood would have dropped the ocean level by less than 6ft. Your 'rational' calls for 20T cubic miles of water to come and go within one year. I would have never picked it up again if I thought like that. yet here you are, on a mission apparently.
Read the last 3 chapters of Revelation and tell me if your summation holds true? If there is a difference then you have gotten some part 'of the story' wrong. Easy as that, keep reading and at some point a verse.
He did make allowances for sinners to still be alive at the end of the story, Dexter doesn't like that aspect of the story, if you have to bend the words to get that understanding you get what you deserve i guess, little knowledge and a lot of confusion when you read it.
I certainly agree that being a follower, is the first sign of some weakness, and is a person who
doesn't realize his/her own intelliglence, and is either too lazy or unsure of themselves to find
their own way, without the guidance of others.
that includes all of the above, including scriptures and all gods. we have so much between our ears,
and don't need to be led blindly around obeying rules that want to hit us right in the guilt area, and
keep us there for our lifetimes, latched onto some fairy tale, much like the invisible friend
my grandaughter had when she was a little child, but as soon as she reached a certain age (5), she
deleted that little friend from her imagination, on her own, without the interference of others.
most of us also have the ability to help the helpless, and lead the blind, and deal with those who
choose to hurt others.
one who is strong on their own, and can look into the life of the blind followers, whatever they might
be following, and can also love and enjoy them for who they are, are truly blessed, they do not have
to lead their lives while obeying anything other than 'good human rules' which help us to look after
each other.
there is no such thing as a sinner, we are human, with all of the traits of human behavior, when one
changes that word to what it really is, mistakes, and realize we can deal with any mistakes ourselves,
with the help of ourselves, and all work together to help each other become better people.
I am an example of a person who is god free, completely, and my life has, and is going along nicely.
Why would I ever want to begin looking out into the universe, or whatever one has to look into to find
-----what, everything I need is right here, is inside of me, is part of me.
I do remember as a child, worrying if I said a swear word, that god was watching me, and I am bad, and
couldn't wait to get to confession the next sunday to be forgiven, very silly indeed.
I had a wonderful mother, she forgave me when I misbehaved, and also taught me how to be a better little
girl, moving forward, nothing can replace that, and she never ever told me to believe in god, or not,
that was my choice.
I was in catholic school because of my dad, who only put me in that school because his parents put him
in catholic school.
You are right. My sadness over this forum can only be in a general sense. I would prefer that we met in person, and had insight into each others' lives. Such is the case with others, but not with those we chat over web forums.
Okay, and I am willing to accept that there are some things that you say that are true. But I don't accept all of it, and so you call me "blind" and make out like the issue is that I'm not listening or hearing you or the others.
This is an example of something you seem to refuse to hear from me. If you compare what I say against the scriptures, you will see that these are not "my truths," but are the Bible's truths. I'm not here defending my opinions, I'm here defending the Bible. I don't have perfect clarity on all parts of the Bible, and those things I'm not zealously preaching. But the clear and basic teachings of the Bible, accepted by the universal church of all time, these I am defending -- see how everything I've said in this entire thread match up with that -- and then conclude that these are not "my" truths, but are the Biblical truths.
This is what you are debating against -- the orthodox Christian faith. I am a man who rejects his own opinions and desires and instead supplants them with the word of God. That's what happens to Christians. It's less and less about my opinions and my desires, more and more about His teachings and His will.
The things you hear coming from me were not dreamed up in a corner of my brain. These things are the revealed truths of God that have gripped men and women across all cultures and all times. You're painting a picture of me standing on an island of my opinion and my interpretation. But I don't. I'm part of a family, and I'm speaking the language that my family speaks -- the language that our Father taught us.
So far as I remain faithful to the scriptural truths, you are not resisting me, but you are resisting the God of the Christians, the one who gave you the breath you now enjoy, and who breathed the scriptures that all Christians of all time embrace and submit to.
Where I err, my Christian brothers and sisters could correct me with the scriptures themselves. It wouldn't be the first time.
All the Bible's fault and nothing to do with you personally? If you believe that you are fooling yourself or you are just clutching at any straw you can to remain 'correct' in your current beliefs.
Clarity is a little here and a little, if God put out 10 passages about the 'day of return' and they are in 10 different books in the Bible do we go looking for them and read them as part of the total information available. 10 passages is going to make something clearer than 1 passage.
Yes it is, the 'signs' that show that the 'day of the lord' is happening is so unique that it cannot be faked or mistaken for anything. Only people that have repented get to see that part so it is not a gathering tool, it is a reward for already being gathered. The ones not gathered at that moment are still gathered later so they are not 'lost'.
Not all of our history books a fully compatible with each other, the Bible is unique because it is fully compatible with itself even though it has many authors and it was written over 1,000's of years, yet it reads as if written by a single author that tells a flawless story about mankind and two bruises. The OT is a very detailed account of real people and events leading up to the completion of one bruise, the physical death of one man on a cross.
That may be true, but they all have a purpose to the overall story the Bible tells, the one that mesh that are OT and NT passages are the most interesting because they would be the hardest for 'an author' to 'add-in' to an already complicated story.
Today or over the last 1,000 years or so?
None being offered. If you see God as the 'type of parent' that would send their own kid to their room for breaking a rule and then never opening the door again then so be it, I think you stopped reading too early.
Like being created from 'nothing' (what existed before the Big Bang), lol) Talk about a dreamer.
Would that mean everybody alive on the planet that has heard of God already belongs to one of the 7 Churches in Revelation?
You two are funny,adapted and Mhz. You both claim to read the bible word for word and you both come to very different interpretations. You both claim that every word is true and infallible and that the way you see it is the only way to see it. You guys don't get it. You just think the other is reading it wrong. There is a reason there are 3500 different Christian sects - the bible is ambiguous and contradictory and was never meant to be taken literally. In the hands of the uninitiated it is meaningless gibberish and you two are poster boys for the absurdity of your own claims.
One of our church fathers, I think you've mentioned him before, said this: "In essentials unity; In doubtful things liberty; But in all things love."
Shall we, in this lifetime, in our limited human minds, fully comprehend the eternal God? No. But will we come to understand and agree on the clear parts of the gospel that saves? Yes. Will we sit together and discuss and learn and grow? Yes. This is why we have Bible studies. Nobody is pretending to have God all figured out. Apostle Paul and Peter had a disagreement over doctrine! The point is, we're human, but salvation is a divine act, and there's no stopping it. We're working on unity in this lifetime; this will be fully realized in the next; all glory to God.[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
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There is no way for the finite mind to begin to comprehend the infinite. To even entertain the possibility is a colossal ego trip. To think that the writings of men can contain even a rudimentary understanding of the will of the infinite is stupendous folly.
I mostly agree with you here, with these exceptions:
- the transcendent God has determined to condescend to us, for our benefit, to comprehend a measure of His nature -- as it is portrayed before our eyes in the universe, and as it is more specifically revealed in His word;
- the Christian faith, I'm sure you know, does not submit that the Bible is the "writings of men," as you would have it, but appointed prophets and apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit to reveal God's will; in their human capacity, the prophets sought to comprehend the very things they wrote, and the angels were perplexed; the unity of scripture is a testimony to its One Author. A group of fishermen, a Zionist, a doctor, and a Pharisee could not concoct a story that perfectly fulfilled a couple thousand years of the writings of dozens of prophets, especially as it defied everything that they were by nature, and exposed even themselves to be wretches and fools; Paul was respected by both the Greeks and the Jews; he tossed this all -- he became a fool -- for Christ.
Or do you rather conclude that you and I have absolutely no way of comprehending God -- that He has made no exposure of Himself in any way?