What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendum?

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
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Whitby, Ontario
I wonder what would happen if the Charest government initiated a sovereignty referendum. I mean it would certainly give Ottawa and the federalist the power to choose the question and the acceptable limit of acceptance.

That way a clear and concise question could be delivered as Ottawa would want it and it would be devoid of any sugarcoating by the PQ. The provincial Liberals and federal liberals could negotiate the terms of separation before hand without the separatists, that way the people could see the true fate of a yes vote. Finally they could set the bar at two thirds majority which they would probably win and in essence they would push back another referendum back 10 years cause people wouldn't want another so soon after.

It would be risky, but bold. I mean why doesn't Charest try to get Ottawa to spell out what separation would mean. That way the vote would be based on something concrete rather than some abstract idea.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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I don't think Charest and the Feds agree enough on the issue for him to allow the Feds to dictate to Quebec what the issues are.
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
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What is this referendum on? Your posting seems framed in in such a way to repress the democratic aspirations of Quebecers. How would that help halt the mood towards sovereignty?

The Quebec Liberal party recognizes the right of a simple majority of Quebecers to determine their future. It's called democracy. also the Federal governmnet can't offer Quebec much of anything. They don't speak for me, an Albertan, in areas of provincial jurisdiction, constitutional change, etc.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Montréal, Québec
RE: What if the Provincia

Charest would be absolutly killing the Liberal party of Québec for a long time if he allowed the federal government to dictate anything that is a provincial juristiction. The dissent curently present in the Liberal party would amplify x100.

Besides, Charest lacks support within the province, and within his own party to do anything. Charest would be last choice to promote federalism, and if he puts a Referendum up, he has to fight for it.
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Calberty said:
What is this referendum on? Your posting seems framed in in such a way to repress the democratic aspirations of Quebecers.

I agree.
DasFX idea is definitly a plan to repress our democracy.

Dont forget that if there is a referendum tomorow, the Yes side wins.

If it's the only solution the ROC can think of, we're in trouble.
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
0
16
When Quebec becomes a sovereign contry we have to embrace the new country and not act as if Canada somehow failed. Let's have a big party and agree to get together every Saturday night to watch the hockey game.

I'm still going to be a rabid Montreal fan in hockey qnd I sure hope that Quebecers come out to Alberta and visit the Rockies. The more mature and civil we are about a new Quebec country then the better off we'll both be...we'll both prosper more.

Quebec doesn't 'go away' if it gains independence. It's still there as real as ever. The same with the rest of Canada. I hope that the Canadian Prime Minister has a seat of honor along side the new Quebec President when the Quebec flag is raised as a sovereign flag and I hope that the two shake hands and make sure that the relationship is solid because it's in both country's interest.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Calberty said:
When Quebec becomes a sovereign contry we have to embrace the new country and not act as if Canada somehow failed. Let's have a big party and agree to get together every Saturday night to watch the hockey game.

I'm still going to be a rabid Montreal fan in hockey qnd I sure hope that Quebecers come out to Alberta and visit the Rockies. The more mature and civil we are about a new Quebec country then the better off we'll both be...we'll both prosper more.

Quebec doesn't 'go away' if it gains independence. It's still there as real as ever. The same with the rest of Canada. I hope that the Canadian Prime Minister has a seat of honor along side the new Quebec President when the Quebec flag is raised as a sovereign flag and I hope that the two shake hands and make sure that the relationship is solid because it's in both country's interest.

You sir, are one of the very rare breed. I've been saying the new relationship between Quebec as its own Nation-State and Canada should be one of great friendship and partnership. Finaly an anglophone, and at that an Albertan that agrees.

:D
 

Booh

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
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Boucherville
DasFX said:
I mean it would certainly give Ottawa and the federalist the power to choose the question and the acceptable limit of acceptance.

Every single party in Québec is against C-20, including the PLQ and Charest. Sorry. No government in Québec will let Ottawa dictate the way they do things (it would be a complete political suicide).

That way a clear and concise question could be delivered as Ottawa would want it and it would be devoid of any sugarcoating by the PQ.

There is pretty much a general concensus here that the question will be "Voulez-vous que le Québec devienne un pays indépendant et souverain?". It can't be any clearer than that.

Finally they could set the bar at two thirds majority

Look it's simple : 50%+1 is enough. The Liberal Party of Québec already said 50%+1 is enough. 50%+1 is an absolute majority. You don't like democracy? Too bad.

50%+1 is enough to get in, 50%+1 is enough to get out.

I mean why doesn't Charest try to get Ottawa to spell out what separation would mean.

Like every other Québec government, Charest's is autonomist. The PQ just pushes it a little bit further by asking the population if they want Québec to become independant. Again, letting Ottawa dictate how things are done is nothing less than a political suicide here.

I have a question : why is Canada so afraid of Québec becoming a country?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Every single party in Québec is against C-20, including the PLQ and Charest. Sorry. No government in Québec will let Ottawa dictate the way they do things (it would be a complete political suicide).

Quebec has no choice. They freely entered into a Confederation in which power is constitutionally centred in Ottawa. Ottawa has the power to disallow any provincial legislation. (Yep, that's right.....look it up) All residual powers not specifically allowed to the provinces are held by the federal government.

Quebec needs the approval of the Feds to leave, and the Supreme Court decisions on the matter make it impossible for Ottawa to allow Quebec to leave without a CLEAR majority on a CLEAR question, and after negotiation of borders etc.

PERIOD.

Wanna fight?

You're heading for one.

Finally they could set the bar at two thirds majority

Look it's simple : 50%+1 is enough. The Liberal Party of Québec already said 50%+1 is enough. 50%+1 is an absolute majority. You don't like democracy? Too bad.

50%+1 is enough to get in, 50%+1 is enough to get out.

Wrong. In most democratic societies, a two thirds majority is necessary for constitutional change. Being the democrat I am, I would accept 60%, had I any say in the matter.

A clear majority is necessary, both because of the Supremes' decision, and the cheating that went on by the yes side in 1995.

I have a question : why is Canada so afraid of Québec becoming a country?

No country on earth would stand to be torn apart with ease. It is not even Quebec independence that is bothersome.....the devil is in the details. Quebec, when it entered Canada, was a much smaller entity than it is now. 2/3 of the territory was added in the 1920s. Some areas will definately not want to leave Canada. Meanwhile radical separatists think Labrador is part of Quebec.

What would the borders be?

How would Quebec accept its share of the national debt?

How would Canada be garaunteed access to the Seaway?

What about a corridor to the Maritimes?

Just to list a few of the problems.

Quebec separation needs to be handled with kid gloves. Quebecois aspirations for a country are fine, as long as rule of law is followed.

Anything else means conflict, and a good chance of civil war.......and nobody wants that.
 

Booh

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
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Colpy said:
Being the democrat I am, I would accept 60%, had I any say in the matter.

That's democracy for you? It's a good thing you're not against democracy then.

and the cheating that went on by the yes side in 1995.

What cheating? I don't believe there wasn't any cheating on the yes side part but I'd like to know what "cheating" you are talking about. The question?

The no side clearly cheated though. Check the facts.

Meanwhile radical separatists think Labrador is part of Quebec.

They are a minority. Radical federalists of the ROC believe Québec's borders should go back to what they were in 1763 so...

What would the borders be?

The same borders we have now.

How would Quebec accept its share of the national debt?

We would get our faire share of the debt. That would probably be between 22-25% I guess (it's just a guess though).

How would Canada be garaunteed access to the Seaway?

Why wouldn't Canada be guaranteed access to the seaway?

What about a corridor to the Maritimes?

Same as above. Québec is not Canada's enemy.

Anything else means conflict, and a good chance of civil war.......and nobody wants that.

There will not be a civil war. Any war within Québec will be initiated from an outside source (most likely Canada or the USA... or both).

Again, Canadians here show the true face of Canada. Democracy? Bullshit. If we were to listen to the feds, a clear majority would be 100%+1. You have proven countless times that you are completely incapable of showing us why we should vote no, why we should want to stay a part of this "country" and so you resort to scare tactics : "an independant Québec would be a third world country!", "there would be civil war", "Québec would be a dictatorship", "Canada will not trade with Québec anymore", etc.

Why should we want to be part of this "country"? Tell us.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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You mistake me.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what Quebecois do. I'm tired of them running the damn country.

What I do give a damn about is the unfortunate folk who live in areas that would overwhelmingly vote "no". They WILL remain part of Canada.

It is simple.

If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.

Now read that line again.

If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.

The argument over this WILL lead to war.

Mark my words.

Have them put on your gravestone.
 

Booh

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
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Boucherville
Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

Colpy said:
What I do give a damn about is the unfortunate folk who live in areas that would overwhelmingly vote "no". They WILL remain part of Canada.

And what about the areas who voted YES... they are still part of Canada.

The areas who vote NO will remain part of Québec. Everyone agrees with that, our federalists included. Only the rest of Canada disagrees with it (or a small vocal minority anyway). Again, Canadians prove that they are only in favour of international laws when those laws work for their benefit.

Canada a democratic example for the rest of the world? Yeah right.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
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www.expose-ontario.org
Let Quebec go... It's better for everyone. Canada wide referendum is required:

Do you agree to make Quebec it's own sovereign Country? YES / NO

A simple question they can put it on our 2005 Canadian Personal Income Tax Return just above the signing page so there are no issues of mistaken/fixed votes. Each CANADIAN SIN gets one vote since this is what's paying for it all at the end of the day.
 

Booh

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
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Boucherville
Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

iamcanadian said:
Canada wide referendum is required

It's Québec's business and will be decided by the people of Québec, not by Canadians.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Personally, if there is one thing I care less about than Quebecois aspirations it is international "law". A complete joke.

You completely misunderstand me. I don't want a civil war in this country. I'm an old guy, but I have kids of military age. I would literally rather fight myself.

However, you underestimate the rage that would be engendered in the ROC should there be any conflict in Quebec that caused loss of life.

With two entities claiming sovereignty and executive powers over the same piece of turf after a UDI, conflict would be inevitable.

Look at Trudeaus reaction to two KIDNAPPINGS in 1970.

Ask on this forum, a very left-wing anti-war forum, what people thought of Pierre's reaction.

Then tell me you think Quebec could leave with it's present borders and without armed conflict.

Ha!

My point is that Quebecers should understand the forces they are playing with. You're walking through a powder magazine, illuminating your way with a cigarette lighter.

Most Quebecois would have the good sense to back off.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

Booh said:
iamcanadian said:
Canada wide referendum is required

It's Québec's business and will be decided by the people of Québec, not by Canadians.

So Canada belongs to Quebec but Quebec does not belong to Canada? Your view expressed here, is part of the fundamental problem all Canada has with Quebec.

We are all partners in a marriage. Quebec must stop being the proverbial nagging wife saying "if you don't to this or that I will leave you".

All of Canada has as much right as Quebec does to make a decision for divorce. The only proper answer to the preverbial nagging wife is "LEAVE".
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

Booh said:
iamcanadian said:
So Canada belongs to Quebec but Quebec does not belong to Canada?

Québec belongs to Québec.

Wrong.

Read the BNA Act. It is our constitution.

That is the constitution Quebec did enter into voluntarily.

It grants practically all power to the federal government.

Quebec belongs to Canada, until and if we decide to dispose of it.
 

Booh

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
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Colpy said:
That is the constitution Quebec did enter into voluntarily.

Québec didn't actually sign the constitutional act.

Anyways, Québec entered the federation freely will freely leave the federation if its population so chooses.

You have the choice to respect democracy or to not respect it. We respect democracy... will you?

A unilateral declaration of independance is not something anybody here wants. If Canada isn't willing to respect the democratic choice of our nation, assuming that choice doesn't please the true North strong and suposedly free, well we won't have any choice but to separate on unfriendly terms. Is that really what Canada wants?

Again, please tell us why we should want to remain a part of this "country"? If Canada is such an amazing country you shouldn't have any trouble giving us good reasons to stay.

Colpy said:
Quebec belongs to Canada, until and if we decide to dispose of it.

:lol:

You have the mind of a dictator.

At least people like you are only a small minority... right? 8O