What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendum?

[iamcanadian]

No Quebec lost its soverenty on the Plains of Abraham.

Quebec belongs to all of Canada equally and we all have the right to vote on taking it out of Canada's federation.

If the majority of Canada want's Quebec out, then out Quebec must go. It has no choice in the matter of staying part of Canada. If the majority of Canada does not want it to go, then it has no choice but to stay, or pay its way out.

We are doing everything ass backawards, paying into trying to make it want to stay. Quebec, by itself has no say in the matter.

Quebec has no legal or democratic right in Canada over the rest of Canada.

 

[Booh]

RE: What if the Provincia

No Quebec lost its soverenty on the Plains of Abraham.

Actually, Québec was never sovereign.

If the majority of Canada want's Quebec out, then out Quebec must go.

Sure.

But Canada can't keep us in by force.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: What if the Provincia

But Canada can't keep us in by force.

Who ever said that anyone would want to keep Quebec in Canada by force?

No part of Canada has ever said that they would. I don't know who gave anyone this impression?

It's all internal within Quebec. Those in Quebec that want to stay and those in Quebec that want to go, should fight it out amongst yourselves and let the rest of Canada know who wins and we will open the doors again after you are finished fighting with yourselves.

 

[Calberty]

I get a kick out of Canadian nationalists. they ar insecure like a bullying boyfriend.

'I love you, Quebec. I truly do. Please stay. I love you'...'but if you leave I hope you fall flat on your face and your life is miserable'...'but, oh yeah, did I tell you I love you?'.

Pathetic. Get over it. If the majority of Quebecers want independence so be it.

 

[Booh]

Re: RE: What if the Provincia

It's all internal within Quebec. Those in Quebec that want to stay and those in Quebec that want to go, should fight it out amongst yourselves and let the rest of Canada know who wins and we will open the doors again after you are finished fighting with yourselves.

It's quite simple. The people of Québec, federalists and sovereignists alike will follow the will of the majorité of our people. If the oui wins they will accept the result, just like we accepted the result of the 1980 referendum. Keep in mind that the 1995 referendum was not a denial of the 1980 referendum (you all know why there was a second referendum).

An eventual 2008 referendum is considered to be a repeat of the 1995 referendum. Chances are we wouldn't be facing another referendum if we had not learned about the sponsorship scandal and all the cheating that took place on the non side in 1995

Also, keep in mind that every new generation of Québécois since my parents' is in favour of sovereignty in a proportion of well over 50%. In fact, those of my generation and younger support sovereignty in a proportion of 67% or so. Not only that but immigrants are more and more in favour of Québec becoming independant (the proportion is WAY higher than it was 10 years ago) and so are their children. It is only a matter of time before Québec becomes sovereign.

If the majority of Quebecers want independence so be it.

It's good to see that some are still pro-democracy.

It's not like wanting to become independant is something we do against Canada. It's something we want to do for ourselves and something that would benefit both Canada and Québec.

 

[Calberty]

I don't think there is any great shame in the UK because former colonies like Canada, Australia, New Zealnad, etc, are thriving democracies and among the most positive societies in the world. Similarly Quebec and Canada don't have to feel diminished in someway if both adhere it basic principles of idemocracy, human rights, etc.

I like the idea of smaller democratic states. It means more human experiments ...from health to politics to education to culture, etc. The world id becoming monolithic in enough ways and I'm encouraged when cultures can find expressions at more human levels of society.

Also, what a great example to the world. There's very little war between countries in the last couple decades but a lot within countries. Quebec nationalists embrace freedom of speech and acknowledge that at the end of the day the only weapon is the vote. What a great coup for democracy when the BQ can sit in the Parliament of Canada and have actually made up the Official opposition.

As long as Quebecers feel they have the control of their own destiny, they'll stick to the democratic process and that benefits all of us.

 

[Colpy]

Well, there's no arguing sensibly with you guys.

BTW I never mention the Constitution Act of 1982, it did not create the country.

The BNA Act of 1867 did.

Keep going the way you are, and you will wind up with a bayonet in the arse.

Which in your case would be fatal.

 

[Booh]

it did not create the country.

Your point being?

Keep going the way you are, and you will wind up with a bayonet in the arse.

In other words, you can't give a me good reasons why we should want to remain a part of this country. Got it.

 

[Numure]

RE: What if the Provincia

Do you honestly think the internationnal community would stand by and let Canada trump on a democratic process? I think not. East timor... Who was the bad guy there? Exactly.

France won'T stand by and watch, for a few concessions the US would jump in and back us up.

See, the fact of the matter is, if we decide to go with 50+1% (Just like Newfoundland got in with 51% after 2 unsuccesful referendums) you will have to accept it, or face your own demise.

We don't want war, and Canada doesnt either. Your a fool to think it would.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

So Canada belongs to Quebec but Quebec does not belong to Canada?

Québec belongs to Québec.

Wrong.

Read the BNA Act. It is our constitution.

That is the constitution Quebec did enter into voluntarily.

It grants practically all power to the federal government.

Quebec belongs to Canada, until and if we decide to dispose of it.

We dont remember voting on that, so its authority is dismisable. And your wrong, it gave limited powers to both and a veto right to Québec. And if you want to go by that document,

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1867.html

 

[Calberty]

The Rest of Canada didn't give today's Quebec territory to Quebec. It was the Parliament of the U.K. The same Parliament that passed the BNA Act creating Canada.

Quebec never did belong to the ROC but, like all of Canadian territory was under the rule of Britain and it's parliament as representative of the monarch. Quebec' territorial integrity comes from a legally passed law. The BNA Act passed in Britain is no 'more of a law' than other laws passed by the same parliament. Similarly the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan are not products of Canadian law but ultimately products of British law.

Quebec is all of Quebec. The boundaries today are as legally valid as the boundaries of Quebec at any other time in history as determined by the British Parliament.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: What if the Provincial Liberals initiate a referendu

The Rest of Canada didn't give today's Quebec territory to Quebec. It was the Parliament of the U.K. The same Parliament that passed the BNA Act creating Canada.

Quebec never did belong to the ROC but, like all of Canadian territory was under the rule of Britain and it's parliament as representative of the monarch. Quebec' territorial integrity comes from a legally passed law. The BNA Act passed in Britain is no 'more of a law' than other laws passed by the same parliament. Similarly the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan are not products of Canadian law but ultimately products of British law.

Quebec is all of Quebec. The boundaries today are as legally valid as the boundaries of Quebec at any other time in history as determined by the British Parliament.

It is a simple concept, really. I don't understand why you have such a problem grasping it.

Repeat after me;

If Canada is divisible, Quebec is divisible.

If Canada is divisible, Quebec is divisible.

If Canada is divisible, Quebec is divisible.

If Canada is divisible, Quebec is divisible.

Simple, straightforward logic. I'm sorry you have to see it repetitively to get it. Need some more?

I guess there is no sense arguing the pertinent clauses of the BNA Act, as you think it is simply a British law and not binding on Quebec.

So, diplomacy here will fail.

"War is the extension of diplomacy by other means." Clauswitz

What are you doing to us?? And yourselves?? For god's sake, THINK.

 

[Calberty]

The BNA Act is not the last law passed before the Constitution was repatriated. there were hundreds of Acts in the meantime. One was the British Parliament giving Quebec jurisdiction over all of what we now call Quebec. The same British Parliament did not give Quebec jurisdiction over Labrador.

ROC can't 'claim' northern quebec because it never was under the utimatate legal jurisdiction of Canada but of Britain. This is recognized from everyone from Trudeau to Bourassa to charest to Chretien to Martin to every leader of every major Canadian political party.

The question of 'is Quebec divisible' is a question that only Quebecers can determine. No different from is Alberta divisible or B.C. divisible. It's their choice.

 

[shamus11]

The history of how it all came about means nothing if Quebec has a referendum and they get 50% + 1.

They either have to make a deal with Ottawa or declare independence. No matter how you read it, its a brand new ball game.

There is no doubt that no matter what Ottawa downloads to Quebec, other provinces, particularly Alberta, will want the same.

It means we will have to write a new constitution if we are going to survive at all. Ottawa cannot fall back on Chretien's Clarity Act and agitate a problem even more. The man who wrote the Clarity Act also organized the adscam business. And what adscam started, the Clarity Act could make it worse.

I figure that Ottawa should download about 95% of its power to the provinces. It will take a Quebec referendum for Ottawa politicians to come to the realization that this is what we have to do. We could do it now and maybe cushion any problems but Ottawa is truly married to the status quo and their soft cushy Ottawa employment.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/Canadian_Stuff/index.php?showtopic=29

 

[Colpy]

The history of how it all came about means nothing if Quebec has a referendum and they get 50% + 1.

They either have to make a deal with Ottawa or declare independence. No matter how you read it, its a brand new ball game.

There is no doubt that no matter what Ottawa downloads to Quebec, other provinces, particularly Alberta, will want the same.

It means we will have to write a new constitution if we are going to survive at all. Ottawa cannot fall back on Chretien's Clarity Act and agitate a problem even more. The man who wrote the Clarity Act also organized the adscam business. And what adscam started, the Clarity Act could make it worse.

I figure that Ottawa should download about 95% of its power to the provinces. It will take a Quebec referendum for Ottawa politicians to come to the realization that this is what we have to do. We could do it now and maybe cushion any problems but Ottawa is truly married to the status quo and their soft cushy Ottawa employment.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/Canadian_Stuff/index.php?showtopic=29

This is, as Churchill once described it, "feeding the crocodile".

Sorry, downloading powers to Quebec has never improved their view of Canada, it has only encouraged them.

Case in point: immigration.

Used to be immigrants to Quebec felt a gratitude and a loyalty to Canada. They were a solid Federalist block within Quebec.

Now they are leaning towards support of sovereignty, as their loyalties have been won by the Quebecois, thanks to Ottawa downloading immigration to the province.

 

[iamcanadian]

I still think everyone should vote on the referedum, and I think the vote will be to Separate Quebec from Canada. Its only good for both Canada and Quebec and there IS NO DOWNSIDE in Quebec becoming as seperate country.

 

[Booh]

thanks to Ottawa downloading immigration to the province.

It actually has nothing to do with Québec having more power over immigration but with the way we integrate immigrants.

 

[Calberty]

Just a note. when immigrants vote they vote as Canadian citizens or citizens of Quebec in a Quebec election. They are no LESS Canadian or Quebecois than anyone else and have rights despite what some might wish otherwise. A Canadian citizen, no matter how long he or his family have been in Canada can darn well vote however they want without someone's disaproval overhanging their head.

 

[Colpy]

thanks to Ottawa downloading immigration to the province.

It actually has nothing to do with Québec having more power over immigration but with the way we integrate immigrants.

You are, of course, correct.

Sorry, I misspoke.

The point remains the same, however. Immigrant gratitude and sympathy now lies with Quebecois much more so than it used to.

 

[Booh]

Immigrant gratitude and sympathy now lies with Quebecois much more so than it used to.

How is this a bad thing exactly?