What are we doing in Afghanistan

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Looking for answers? Follow the money


Nations pursue foreign policies for wealth and power, either to get more of it or to protect it from somebody else who is trying to take it.




>by Jerry West
March 10, 2006

What are we doing in Afghanistan? That is a question that many Canadians don't have a good answer for. Recent polls have shown that the country is almost evenly divided on the question of whether or not we should have troops in Afghanistan. The government, of course, thinks that we should, and is resisting any attempt by Members of Parliament to have a debate on our Afghanistan policy. What are they afraid of? You would think in a democracy debate on important issues would be a good thing.

Some people say that we are in Afghanistan as part of our commitment to the so called war on terror, others say it is to appease the Americans for ducking out on the Iraq war. If you listen to some of our military leaders we are there to kill “scumbags,” and we will be there for 20 years.

For whatever reason we are there it is costing us big bucks, not to mention the lives of our soldiers, and we must be asking ourselves if the adventure is worth the price, particularly when we have many problems at home that could better use the resources we are pouring down the drain in support of the world's leading producer of opium.

In recent news articles military leaders have indicated that troops returning from Afghanistan will be used for public relations stunts to convince the public of the importance of the mission. Their rhetoric sounds more appropriate for a pep rally prior to a sporting event than for something as important as war. They don't want the mission debated because they say it will be bad for the troops. Such statements are an insult to people of a democracy.

And, what is worse for the troops, society debating whether a policy is worth pursuing or not, or society just docilely standing by as they are led off into what may well be a quagmire?

One wonders if our leaders ever bother to study history. Afghanistan has been a meat grinder for foreign meddlers for centuries. The British lost two out of three wars there during the time of Empire, and the Russians spent about ten years there before they tired of bleeding and pulled out.

To date the Americans and their subordinates have spent almost five years in the country, still dying with the annual death rate increasing, and we are told to expect 20 years more. Twenty years for what is a question that needs to be seriously debated. How much should the Canadian people be expected to sacrifice, and what are the reasons? These are answers that we should have and agree upon before this commitment is continued.

It is simple to look on the adventure in Afghanistan as merely a response to the terrorist attacks of 9/11, or a noble mission to rid the country of religious radicals, but nothing is ever that simple in reality. Today's villains in Afghanistan are yesterday's heroes, at least for the United States. And, yesterday's villains, whose demise was financed by the U.S., were modernizing the country and expanding human rights, something that we now list as a reason for being involved there.

Perhaps if the Americans had not opposed the Russians who were helping the pre- Taliban government fight off the religious fruitcakes and warlords we would not have such a mess there now. Unfortunately human rights is only an issue of convenience for countries like the U.S., to use when it fits their bigger purpose, or to ignore when it does not.

Afghanistan today is certainly no shining example of human rights. To claim protecting human rights as a policy of the occupation of Afghanistan is certainly a joke. Sources report that for women outside of Kabul things may be worse now than under the Taliban. Religious laws still receive official sanction in some areas, and blasphemy is still a crime.

Add to this the fact that the U.S. has been accused of torturing prisoners, accused even by its own troops, and maintains secret concentration camps. It is no wonder that the U.S. refuses to join the international community in its stand against war crimes and war criminals by signing onto the International Criminal Court. Another question that should be debated is how can Canada in good conscience, as a signatory to the court, cooperate with a rogue state like the U.S. which is not a signatory.

Nations pursue foreign policies for wealth and power, either to get more of it or to protect it from somebody else who is trying to take it. The bottom line in Afghanistan, as in Iraq and any other place that armies clash, is all about who gets what. To find the answers as to why countries do things, follow the money. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are about control of resources on one hand, and about the business of war on the other.

Military expenditures and even foreign aid are tools to transfer money from a country's citizens to the international providers of arms and services like Halliburton and others. It would be interesting to compare the supporters of the adventure in Afghanistan with those who stand to profit from it, and the politicians that they bankroll. That is certainly a comparison that should be examined publicly by Parliament, but don't hold your breath.

Jerry West is the editor of The Record, an independent, progressive newspaper published every other Wednesday in Gold River, British Columbia. His columns regularly appear in rabble.ca.
 

zoofer

Council Member
Dec 31, 2005
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Yep lets re-install Mullah Omar and the Taliban.
Women should be treated like cattle. Kick the bitches out of schools. Who do they think they are? Humans?
Homosexuals should be given a choice on how to die. Hanging, cut in two pieces or stoning.

Cut off a hand and opposite foot is great punishment for petty crooks and falsely accused unfortunates. They can survive on the non existent safety net.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
yea and while we are at it lets re-plant the 10 million or so mines we have helped clear...that way more civilians can be blown up.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Beav, have you been reading the articles about Taliban attacks on schools, orphanages, and teachers?

One wonders if our leaders ever bother to study history. Afghanistan has been a meat grinder for foreign meddlers for centuries. The British lost two out of three wars there during the time of Empire, and the Russians spent about ten years there before they tired of bleeding and pulled out.

The difference is that the majority of the Afghan people, after living under the Taliban, WANT the international force there until security can be established. And yes, that might take ten or twenty years.

How do I know this?

The LACK of resistance.

Afghanistan is awash in arms. The first thing an Afghan male does on the birth of a son is buys him a rifle. These peopple drove out 100,000 Russian soldiers.

But the small international force is taking very few casualties.

Would you care to explain that?

I say it is the appreciation of the people.

And yes, I've read Kipling:

"when you're hurt and left on the AFghanistan plains;
And the women come out to cut up your remains,
Just take up your rifle and blow out your brains.
and go to your God like a soldier"

Funny, we don't seem to be having much of that kind of problem.

Wonder why?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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War and peace are too important to leave to generals like Rick Hillier, says Gerald Caplan
Mar. 9, 2006. 01:00 AM

The Canadian media have a new hero. They've fallen hard for a soldier. Gen. Rick Hillier can do no wrong. He speaks; the media salutes. After apparent love-ins last week with the editorial boards of both the Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail, both gave swooning endorsement to his pitch for Canada's mission to Afghanistan.

Few of the general's assertions, however provocative or dubious, seem to get challenged. His more memorable utterances are repeated often and scrutinized rarely.

He is, apparently, an expert on complex geopolitical matters in faraway regions of the world.

He knows exactly what the Canadian military should be doing, though logically in a democracy, military policy should follow foreign policy and should be determined by elected officials.

He marches around the country lobbying newspapers, giving interviews and making speeches to anyone who will listen.

Why is he being permitted to do so?

Given his outspoken views on Canada's duty to Afghanistan, if you contradict him you risk being accused of disloyalty to our troops risking their lives in the field.

His high profile puts enormous pressure on politicians to support his opinions.

The general throws around comments that are really quite unbalanced. "We are the Canadian Forces," he says, "and our job is to be able to kill people."

Surely there's a better job description: The job of our armed forces is to carry out the orders of their government.

The best foreign and defence policy attempts to achieve its goals without anyone dying on either side.

We are fighting "scumbags" in Afghanistan, he says.

How does it help to use such macho vocabulary ? It's also wrong.

If we killed all the "scumbags" in Afghanistan, we'd lose a good chunk of the government we're backing — the warlords, murderers, war criminals, drug dealers, corrupt opportunists and religious fanatics who happen to be on "our" side at the moment.

Conversely, you can't generalize about "the enemy" in Afghanistan as if it were an evil homogeneous mass.

Many are simply ordinary Afghans who oppose foreign armies in their country.

Canadians, he says, haven't grasped that peacekeeping has changed and is now dangerous. Wrong. We know what's going on; does he?

Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen a word by the general on the United Nations' role in this area. The UN now runs 18 peace operations throughout the world; some, like that in the Democratic Republic of Congo, hardly less dangerous than the Afghan mission.

Canadians like me, who support humanitarian military interventions in Congo and Darfur, are fully aware of the potential dangers of those missions, want our armed forces to be trained accordingly, and are prepared to pay for it.

We're also far more comfortable operating under UN auspices than under U.S. command, as we are in Afghanistan.

Yet, most Canadians would be dismayed to learn that Canada has almost entirely phased out its participation in UN peace operations.

According to the Polaris Institute, UN missions accounted for only 217 of the 3,600 Canadian personnel deployed abroad in 2004-05.

As of July 2005, Canada was supplying a derisory one-third of 1 per cent of the 61,500 military personnel then participating in UN missions, putting Canada in 36th place among the 97 contributing countries.

When we shortly withdraw some 200 personnel from the UN peacekeeping operation in the Golan Heights, our international peacekeeping ranking will plummet to about 60th place.

Once we were among the world's 10 most generous contributors, and most Canadians probably think we still are and should be.

It seems to me that we're conducting our foreign and defence policy in an entirely perverse and inappropriate manner.

We need to hear more from our elected officials and the public and less from the military. Hillier's job is to make recommendations to the government, once the government decides what its policies should be.

The government should hold a major parliamentary debate about these life-and-death issues. The public should have a voice. Tens of thousands of Canadians are remarkably well-informed on these issues.

Why are they ignored?

Let's hear why it's a good thing for Canadian troops to risk their lives in Afghanistan but not, for example, in Darfur or the Congo. War and peace, it's been pointed out, are far too important to leave to the generals — even the media darlings among them.

Gerald Caplan is an international consultant with a particular interest in conflict prevention and humanitarian intervention.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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zoofer said:
Yep lets re-install Mullah Omar and the Taliban.
Women should be treated like cattle. Kick the bitches out of schools. Who do they think they are? Humans?
Homosexuals should be given a choice on how to die. Hanging, cut in two pieces or stoning.

Cut off a hand and opposite foot is great punishment for petty crooks and falsely accused unfortunates. They can survive on the non existent safety net.

You are obviously against injustice, and I am not in favour of any of the above crimes, you,re not very well informed about the history of the country though because everyone of the activitys you mentioned above predate the taliban.
 

zoofer

Council Member
Dec 31, 2005
1,274
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The good fight

Lorne Gunter, National Post
Published: Monday, March 06, 2006

Near the end of the federal election campaign, NDP Leader Jack Layton said the "warlike offensive role" Canadian troops have assumed in southern Afghanistan was wrong. "The peacekeeping role is one that Canadians support. Offensive roles are not roles that Canadians support, and certainly our party does not support."

We're lovers, not fighters. Put some flowers in our hair and pass the bong, man.

According to this logic, fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda in southern Afghanistan -- a mission Canada took command of last month -- isn't our fight. We shouldn't be securing coalition bases in the six southernmost Afghan provinces or hunting down insurgents along the mountainous Afghan-Pakistani border. We should be waiting for the shooting to stop so we can come in and organize some inter-ethnic soccer games and perhaps a group hug or two.

Too bad the real world doesn't always allow a nation to pick only the duties it wants.

The Afghan fight is Canada's fight. We are not there merely to serve as American surrogates in the region or to lend credibility to the White House's claim that the war on terror is an international effort, not just an American one.

Yes, the Americans want to transfer some of their soldiers there to Iraq, and yes our willingness to assume control of the fight in and around Kandahar has made that move possible. But we are not simply doing this to win favour with Washington.

To believe that, you have to forget Canadians were killed by Taliban-supported terrorists on 9/11, that Canadians died as a result of plots hatched in Afghan caves and at the hands of killers trained in Afghan terrorist camps. You have to see the war in the Afghan mountains as just another conflict among far-off warlords who are pretty much morally equivalent. You would have to believe we shouldn't be taking sides.

Above all, you have to swallow the naive conviction that if we simply show no aggression toward the extremist Muslims we are fighting there, they will show no aggression toward us. Canada won't be a target so long as no Canadians are fighting terrorists or their co-religionists overseas. So let's all scurry into our hidey-holes and wait for the current unpleasantness to blow over.

Except, of course, 24 Canadians died in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, or on the planes that slammed into those buildings. And long before we took on our current "warlike offensive role," al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden listed Canada among the six nations he would most like to attack.

Our soldiers are in Afghanistan not to perform some step-and-fetch-it act for the Americans, but -- like the Americans, British, Dutch, Germans, Australians and others -- to ensure that country never again falls under the control of the Taliban, so that al-Qaeda is never again free to use Afghanistan as its base of operations against the West, Canada included.

It is not easy to remember the reason for our involvement four years after 9/11, but it's essential that we do so nonetheless.

Sadly, Layton's shallow sentiments are common. Over the weekend, CanWest released an Ipsos Reid poll showing 54% of Canadians support the use of Canadian Forces for "security and combat efforts against the Taliban and al-Qaeda" -- a solid number, but down significantly from 66% in 2002.

Only 52% believe our troops should stay in Afghanistan, while 48% want them home immediately. And after Saturday's maccabre axe attack on a Canadian soldier, support may go down further.

This tepid support is not solely the fault of squishy anti-war types such as Layton, though.

The previous Liberal government is somewhat to blame. While they courageously committed our troops' to their current mission, they did so without much public discussion. They hoped to get away with doing the right thing without having to take a political hit from their own party's peacenik wing.

Which leaves the task of building popular support to the new Conservative government. It should start by allowing a Parliamentary debate on the operation -- as Layton himself is now demanding.

It is reluctant to do this for fear of losing such a debate while our men and women are in danger in the field. But they needn't worry. Ordinary Canadians are more sensible than that. With the situation explained properly, in Parliament, a strong majority will rally behind our troops.
Link

I'm not so sure. The Liberal media arm CBC and other far leftwing newspapers will work on ordinary Canadians, most who have no access to my illuminating pastes.
:wink:
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
darkbeaver said:
You are obviously against injustice, and I am not in favour of any of the above crimes, you,re not very well informed about the history of the country though because everyone of the activitys you mentioned above predate the taliban.

but what does that have to do with anything? yes it is understood that its not simply the taliban who have commited all the crimes against humanity.....
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
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Beav,

Years ago I used to watch Gerald Caplan every week on Canada AM in debate with (my memory is gone) that chubby Mulrooney advisor and the Liberal Senator that did the paper on health care (Michael _ ?) The Liberal wasn't a senator then.

Caplan spoke for the NDP.

He proved one thing.

He is a complete, unadulterated, no-holds-barred moron.

Period.

(Edited to say.....Hugh Segal was the PC guy on Canada AM, now Michael......?)
Edited again: Michael Kirby

Par for the course.
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
RE: What are we doing in

We're in afghanistan because it's the only country between China and Iran, and is a direct route for a pipleine that could fuel a Chinese war machine that will mess with our way of living big time. It's likely that China would attack the US and re-establish the taliban government and run a pipeline ASAP without anyone stepping in. By placing Canada in that strategic position, China would have to attack the least aggressive nation on earth with a fairly pristine reputation for peacekeeping, which would draw an attack from pretty much everyone. Also, for the same reason, the taliban won't get any support from anyone else to fight our forces, making the occupation more likely to be successful. It's a damn good strategy, and its the least we can do to make sure that we'll have the upper hand when world war breaks out. Everyone needs to understand that if we don't make this minor contribution now, it could be our asses in the future.

It's just like people who think the US is wrong to be in Iraq, and in Iran this June. It's pre-emptive action to make sure that we can inhibit the Eastern forces so that we don't get wiped from the earth. By controlling the oil around the world, we can make it much harder for any aggressive action to be taken against us, and the odds are against us, so we need all the leverage we can get.

The problem is that two realities exist, one that is ugly, and one that most of us live in and believe, and now the two realities are starting to merge, but the majority of people are still stuck in their skewed reality of the world and can't see the true reality of the current situation. It won't be long before everyone starts to see the true reality of the situation and will understand the reasoning behind our current and past actions.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
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Edmonton
RE: What are we doing in

Why do we keep running around in this circle? Beaver posts some useless tripe, then tries to back it up with "facts" that are completely baseless. Here's my issues with this thread:

The government, of course, thinks that we should, and is resisting any attempt by Members of Parliament to have a debate on our Afghanistan policy. What are they afraid of? You would think in a democracy debate on important issues would be a good thing.

They're afraid of nothing. Afghanistan a fully sanctioned mission. What they are concerned with is that a debate will affect troop morale. A smart move on their part to stand fully behind the men on the frontlines.

The general throws around comments that are really quite unbalanced. "We are the Canadian Forces," he says, "and our job is to be able to kill people."

Surely there's a better job description: The job of our armed forces is to carry out the orders of their government.

Our job is to kill people. We're an Army. You can say "our job is to carry out the orders of the Government", but that isn't our "job". It's like if you work at McDonalds and someone asks you what your job is. Would you say:

A. I ensure that customers get their greaseball burgers hot and fresh from the grill.

B. I work at McDonalds.

In short my job is to defend Canada, and that does mean i'm trained to kill. Do I WORK FOR the Government? Yes. However as I said that isn't so much my job as my employer.

You are obviously against injustice, and I am not in favour of any of the above crimes, you,re not very well informed about the history of the country though because everyone of the activitys you mentioned above predate the taliban.

Actually they don't. Pre-Taliban, Afghanistan was a tribal culture, bordering on shamanism. Yes they had rules, and yes some were outdated by Western standard, however after the Taliban took power they overhauled the entire legal system. Women were squashed even flatter, homosexuals were persecuted, and often people were snatched from the street and never seen again. The Taliban was the epitome of evil, and after speaking for the better part of 8 months with Afghans ranging from shop keepers to village elders I know full and well how much the Taliban was and still is despised.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
darkbeaver said:
War and peace are too important to leave to generals like Rick Hillier, says Gerald Caplan
Mar. 9, 2006. 01:00 AM

The Canadian media have a new hero. They've fallen hard for a soldier. Gen. Rick Hillier can do no wrong. He speaks; the media salutes. After apparent love-ins last week with the editorial boards of both the Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail, both gave swooning endorsement to his pitch for Canada's mission to Afghanistan.

Few of the general's assertions, however provocative or dubious, seem to get challenged. His more memorable utterances are repeated often and scrutinized rarely.

He is, apparently, an expert on complex geopolitical matters in faraway regions of the world.

He knows exactly what the Canadian military should be doing, though logically in a democracy, military policy should follow foreign policy and should be determined by elected officials.

He marches around the country lobbying newspapers, giving interviews and making speeches to anyone who will listen.

Why is he being permitted to do so?
...

Is this guy really questioning why Canada's highest ranking military officer is "permitted" to tell the rest of us about Canada's military, and its needs...? For Facks sakes people, he's the CDS! His job is to know more about our military than anyone else. Would this guy argue that the surgeon-general is unqualified to discuss medical matters, or that the Pope should leave his musings on Christianities to someone else? War is too important a topic to be handled by a military specialist... :roll:

What a retard!! Who publishes these people??
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RE: What are we doing in

Reply with quote
Why do we keep running around in this circle? Beaver posts some useless tripe, then tries to back it up with "facts" that are completely baseless. Here's my issues with this thread:

Mogz, we keep running arround in this circle as you put it because it is my right to do so, or would you rather I be shot for my point of view. General Hillier is no doubt qualified to speak about matters military, however
geo-political matters are beyond his position and qualifications. The citizens of Canada have an interest in and have questions about this mission.You are sworn to defend the rights and freedoms of this country, among those rights is the right to debate, and thats democracy you are either a believer in democracy and will defend my right to dissent or you will not and if you do not then you
are not a believer in democracy but a believer in somthing else. You can disagree but you cannot advocate
for no debate and remain a democratic individual, its just that simple. The assertion that debate will affect troop morale has little to do with the necessity of debate over this issue and may be seen as part of the difficulties encountered with democracy, or would you favour the blanket approval of a totalitarian regime which of course could be inncorrect but would only be discovered after the fact and to late to prevent the damage.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
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Vancouver, BC
Welcome to CC.net!

Hello, Johnny Utah.

Welcome to Canadian Content! I am happy to see you jumping into the fray — the best way to integrate yourself, by far. If ever you need assistance, I would be happy to field any questions you may have by way of private messages, or you can, of course, contact one of the dedicated Administrators or Moderators.

I hope to see you around the forum!


Sincerely,

Christopher Girodat
FiveParadox
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
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Re: Welcome to CC.net!

FiveParadox said:
Hello, Johnny Utah.

Welcome to Canadian Content! I am happy to see you jumping into the fray — the best way to integrate yourself, by far. If ever you need assistance, I would be happy to field any questions you may have by way of private messages, or you can, of course, contact one of the dedicated Administrators or Moderators.

I hope to see you around the forum!


Sincerely,

Christopher Girodat
FiveParadox
Thanks getting the feel of the site, so far it's good.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
Re: RE: What are we doing in

darkbeaver said:
Reply with quote
General Hillier is no doubt qualified to speak about matters military, however
geo-political matters are beyond his position and qualifications.


Actually, General Hillier probably knows more about the geo-political matters than anyone else in the Government. As the CDS, he has access to all the info coming from the CF's Military Intelligence resources, and quite possibly access to everything CSIS has as well. More than likely, that's being backed up by Intelligence supplied to him by our allies, the US, UK and other countries.

I really don't see how some journalist ensconced in a Toronto studio apartment believes that he knows more about the "geo-political matters" of a country than the Officers and Soldiers who are actually IN the country!
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Perhaps he is equipped to make decisions based on the politics of the reason — however, decision-making should be left, in terms of important issues, to the House of Commons and the Senate. The job of the Canadian Armed Forces (and a valiant job of it, they do) is to carry out on those orders and decisions.