Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

[jimmoyer]

One way is the fact that women aren't as sexualized in Islam.
---------------------------tracy--------------------------------------

Actually, I think the opposite is true.

Don't dare show blonde hair, or even your hair openly
to men there, because they are so easily tempted by
your temptress ways.

Also I would not define Islamic societal mores as the opposite
of Western culture. Much that is bad remains disguised and hidden.
And much of what men think about women over there goes unchallenged.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

One way is the fact that women aren't as sexualized in Islam.
---------------------------tracy--------------------------------------

Actually, I think the opposite is true.

Don't dare show blonde hair, or even your hair openly
to men there, because they are so easily tempted by
your temptress ways.

Also I would not define Islamic societal mores as the opposite
of Western culture. Much that is bad remains disguised and hidden.
And much of what men think about women over there goes unchallenged.

I think they are more fearful of women's sexuality in some ways, though most of the muslim women I know don't cover their hair. Lebanese and Turkish women may be a little more moderate in general, but they just dress modestly. Maybe Islamic societies attempt to protect women by insisting they downplay their sexuality in public. I don't know if that's worse than what we do to women and girls. We have some really conflicting ideas about women's sexuality and their bodies in this country in particular. Sex and the City was incredibly popular, Paris Hilton's sex tape not a big deal and women's bodies are basically treated simply as objects thanks to diets, anorexia, bullemia, plastic surgery, etc. But at the same time, politicians didn't want Plan B to be available to women because it could encourage them to be promiscuous and Janet's superbowl display was a scandal. I can't imagine raising a daughter around here.

I agree with your second paragraph and only add the same is true here.

 

[jimmoyer]

You mean men's ideas about women
go unchallenged here ?

 

[gopher]

Spell this out more clearly.
In what ways does Islam itself liberate women?
And in what ways does Islamic society liberate women ?





Read my quote again: Islamic women say Islam liberates women.

If you have a question as to why or how, you will need to direct your question to them. See this thread's initial post and see also my earlier posts which quoted from these women extensively for your answer.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

You mean men's ideas about women
go unchallenged here ?

I think a lot of them do, yes. I also notice it isn't just the men. You would be surprised at how many women I know who think women are naturally catty, passive, slutty, moody, etc.

For all our talk of equality, real equality has yet to materialize. Hopefully we're on the way, but we certainly aren't there yet IMO.

 

[Curiosity]

Wow Tracy

I hope you are speaking for yourself - not all women.

I make no gender distinction if something is written on forums or spoken in person, with which I disagree. Women naturally have differing points of view than those which come from the male thought processes.

Compared with the happy burkha wearers, I would rather have all the freedoms western women enjoy along with their faults than having to experience the gory rituals of clitoridectomy and divorce by stoning to death thank you very much.

 

[tracy]

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself and like I said, I wouldn't be in Afghanistan wearing a burkha. It is possible to be a muslim without a burkha or female genital mutilation or stonings, etc. Maybe some of you don't know moderate or modern muslim women like the ones I do.

 

[Zzarchov]

I think many WOULD prefer to live in Iran, Even Afghanistan, than to a Christian Theocratic state.

The problem is the Theocratic State, not the religion its on.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

The problem is the Theocratic State, not the religion its on.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[jimmoyer]

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself and like I said, I wouldn't be in Afghanistan wearing a burkha. It is possible to be a muslim without a burkha or female genital mutilation or stonings, etc. Maybe some of you don't know moderate or modern muslim women like the ones I do.
--------------------------------------tracy-----------------------

You might find those muslim women here, especially
in Dearborn Michigan more often than you'd find
such behavior in the Middle East right now.

 

[Curiosity]

The Modern (moderate) Muslim females I know and have seen on television and the internet....are exceedingly bright and humane people who have through their incredible minds no doubt outwitted the oppression placed on them by their devout religious traditions.

Once freed into western society, they seem to find their voice and opinion and begin the long journey into sunlight, while still remaining
devoted and devout to their religious choice.

I believe their intellect and wisdom have kept them "whole" throughout their horrible history of treatment in their native lands.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself and like I said, I wouldn't be in Afghanistan wearing a burkha. It is possible to be a muslim without a burkha or female genital mutilation or stonings, etc. Maybe some of you don't know moderate or modern muslim women like the ones I do.
--------------------------------------tracy-----------------------

You might find those muslim women here, especially
in Dearborn Michigan more often than you'd find
such behavior in the Middle East right now.

Certainly, so why is it strange to see good things about them and their religious customs? The Middle East isn't the only representation of muslim life. My friends aren't living oppressed lives. Most of the muslim women I knew in Toronto were my colleagues. They were just how WC described (bright and humane). Just like Christian women, they aren't defined by how their more archaic religious factions treat women. Pretty much all the major religions are anti-woman in a lot of ways, that doesn't mean you can't live a good life as a woman and get past those things.

 

[Curiosity]

Tracy

There are extremists in any religious group - we cannot generalize that all women in our western nations are free of their traditions -

"Doctors" are imported from the middle east still to perform the "becoming a woman" procedure on young girls around 13, condoned and desired by the family - especially the patriarch.

Those who escape the oppressive religious beliefs practiced within the home and are allowed to function within western society are the fortunate ones who can maintain their faith and still find productive lives in our world.

This holds true in Christianity, Judaeism and Islam ..... I am not familiar with any of the other major religions to include them in my comment.

Some women on the other hand prefer to remain oppressed, within their home environment in servitude to their keepers and their children - and are quite pleased to do so.

They are not wrong. I however think the old traditions of Islam towards females are abhorrent. But then I am wrong in their eyes as well.

To pretend they don't exist is to keep oneself from learning.

I live in gratitude for my freedom and equality. It doesn't make women better - but more able to handle the role women play in our world with more compassion and freedom of expression, especially in the role of mother and nurturer to children. To teach them to be free from fear.

 

[gopher]

RE: Western Women #1 Conv

We have strayed a bit from the topic at hand.

But just to make a point, I wouldn't think that being male in some ME societies are any easier than it is to be female in them. For example, getting conscripted into the armed forces, fighting in tribal wars under the harshest conditions possible, spending time in a Turkish prison, getting beaten half to death by American or British soldiers, or just trying to make a living when the nation's infrastructure has been bleeped up by foreign invaders - all these conditions do not bespeak of a society that is particularly conducive to alleged male supremacy.

 

[Just the Facts]

The bigoted Islamophobes and America haters coveniently overlook the fact that abuses occur everywhere. One such example follows:


http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm


I suppose these traitors will now say it is nothing more than a fluke.

You do realize that under Sharia, the woman in the link you posted is guilty of a crime punishable by death, don't you?

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Converts to Islam

The problem is the Theocratic State, not the religion its on.

I couldn't agree more.

Theocratic states like Germany?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/06/wgermany06.xml

 

[tracy]

Tracy

There are extremists in any religious group - we cannot generalize that all women in our western nations are free of their traditions -

"Doctors" are imported from the middle east still to perform the "becoming a woman" procedure on young girls around 13, condoned and desired by the family - especially the patriarch.

Those who escape the oppressive religious beliefs practiced within the home and are allowed to function within western society are the fortunate ones who can maintain their faith and still find productive lives in our world.

This holds true in Christianity, Judaeism and Islam ..... I am not familiar with any of the other major religions to include them in my comment.

Some women on the other hand prefer to remain oppressed, within their home environment in servitude to their keepers and their children - and are quite pleased to do so.

They are not wrong. I however think the old traditions of Islam towards females are abhorrent. But then I am wrong in their eyes as well.

To pretend they don't exist is to keep oneself from learning.

I live in gratitude for my freedom and equality. It doesn't make women better - but more able to handle the role women play in our world with more compassion and freedom of expression, especially in the role of mother and nurturer to children. To teach them to be free from fear.

I get what you're saying and I certainly don't pretend the bad doesn't exist. I just don't ignore the good either. I believe in women having the power of choice in their lives no matter what their religion.

A little off topic, but the FGM I've seen has been among African women and it was done to them by other women. It's mysogyny at its worst, completely internalized. (It wasn't just among muslims though, Christians and animists in certain countries practice it).

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Western Women #1 Conv

We have strayed a bit from the topic at hand.

But just to make a point, I wouldn't think that being male in some ME societies are any easier than it is to be female in them. For example, getting conscripted into the armed forces, fighting in tribal wars under the harshest conditions possible, spending time in a Turkish prison, getting beaten half to death by American or British soldiers, or just trying to make a living when the nation's infrastructure has been bleeped up by foreign invaders - all these conditions do not bespeak of a society that is particularly conducive to alleged male supremacy.

Men there don't live well, they just live better than the women they dominate. Many feminists would argue that men are oppressed in western countries as are women. Patriarchal societies set defined gender roles which inhibit the freedom of both genders. The only difference is in the tools men are given to deal with it and the benefits their gender role gives them.

 

[gopher]

RE: Western Women #1 Conv

"You do realize that under Sharia, the woman in the link you posted is guilty of a crime punishable by death, don't you?"


You realize that under the law, those guilty of the offenses are also punishable by death?

 

[gopher]

RE: Western Women #1 Conv

"Many feminists would argue that men are oppressed in western countries as are women."


That much is true. Perhaps it should be emphasized more. And it should be discussed for all cultures without prejudice.