Wasted resources in war on terror

[the caracal kid]

"began during and after the fall of Rome."

oh no! he mentioned the fall of Rome!

do you know what particular religion is intertwined with the fall of Rome?

 

[The Gunslinger]

One of the reasons that the western world managed to come out on top was the enlightenment, but moreso, the industrial revolution (which arguably only occured because of the enlightenment). The growing of the middle class, the rapid acceleration of technology and huge expansion of wealth in those nations helped put the West on top. When Japan starting industrial expansion it quickly bounced from a relatively backwards (at least in Victorian standards) medieval society to a world power in just 40 years! Much more of the world could easily reach western standards if they really, really wanted to.

 

[jimmoyer]

And when the Catholic (means univeral in Greek)
Church decreed that the birth of Christ was on
Winter Solstice, a day much celebrated by the pagans
baachanalian revelers (during the fall of Rome),
the Church began a long road of propaganda to
convert the Roman heathen, in between the various
adventures of the Visigoths and Vandal sackings.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Helping a country like Rwanda may be necessary in the future, with UN approval we should possibly have troops available. Political problems in other nations are a fact of life and our involvement is necessary. We will not be in Afghanistan forever, a local political solution has to be found, which requires military assistance in the meantime.

Being in Afghanistan does not make us any more susceptible to terrorism than Holland. The Iraqi invasion was the strategic mistake as it lacked world support.

 

[Mogz]

*sigh*

I read in The Globe and Mail newspaper on Saturday Feb 25 that Canada is considering spending millions of dollars for new equipment like heavy lift aircraft. Yet Afghanistan has a terrorist insurgency on the ground and Afghanis lack proper equipment such as vehicles and weapons to fight it effectively. There is no shortage of Afghani recruits willing to fight al-Qaeda and the Taliban, so why doesn't the Cdn gov't, if it is interested in fighting terrorism, adequately supply those Afghanis who are ready and willing to fight terrorism?

Plus, about 60% of Cdns are against having troops in Adghanistan, poll.

Canada could promise $100 million over four or five years to get Afghanis to bear down on their terror problem and it could be solved relatively quickly as a result.

Is the Cdn gov't and military only interested in its own bureaucratic interests or fighting terrorism right now? The Cdn military presence in Afghanistan is feeling somewhat bogus these days.

You're suggesting that we give millions of dollars to another nation before we support ourselves? That is moronic. Our military has been chopped to the bone by vast liberal budget cuts over decades. How do you expect our soldiers to defend this nation if we aren't given the tools to do so? You decree we should hand over fistfuls of cash to a fledgling nation that doens't even have the infastructure to maintain an Army, let alone equip a bigger one. Our chieif problems with the war on terror right now are:

-Lack of strategic heavylift aircraft
-Lack of tactical heavylight helicopters
-Lack of helicopter gunships
-Lack of bodyarmor (we do not have enough to support an entire roto)
-Lack of soldiers

These issues need to be addressed, for if they're not they'll plauged the CF and make it worse off than it is.

With regard to the Afghan National Army (ANA), we have sunken literally MILLIONS of dollars in to it. Our soldiers training their recruits. We've supplied the modular tents for them to live in. We feed them, clothe them, and supply them with ammunition. The only thing the Afghan Government pays for is the soldiers paychecks. You say we aren't doing anything for them when the truth is we're doing more than any other nation on the planet.

 

[twotoques]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in war on terror

So, we abandon Afghanistan.

Oh, no. We stay there until they stop fighting.
Like the Americans did in Vietnam

The Taliban take over again, terrorist training camps spring up, and the next set of aircraft fly into the CN Tower. Or the next car bomb is in a Jewish community in Montreal.

How many billions of dollars?

How many Canadian lives lost?

How are Canadians fighting in Afghanistan going to stop Canada from being attacked by terrorists?

Logically, it increases the risk by increasing the motivation for the loonies to attack us on our own ground.

You see how crazy they get over a couple of cartoons. Wait until Canadian forces wipe out a wedding or a funeral party that somebody thought was a terrorist convoy.

You people need to pull your head out of the sand.

Maybe you need to study a little history about countries like Afghanistan. A great many of those people are tribalists who have been fighting invaders for 1000 years. They're not going to stop just because we showed up. They don't care who we are or why we're there. They just want us gone.

You don't defeat terrorism by creating more terrorists.

Money would be better spent on wells and schools and training apprentices. Hearts and minds. People who are supporting themselves with decent jobs aren't interested in supporting some religious freak and his jihad.

Osama listed Canada among his list of top targets in a tape a couple of years ago. Like the top FIVE.

Oh, yeah. Boogey Man bin Laden. I bet he's got a lot more important things to worry about then attacking Canada. Like keeping his head down and where his next hideout is going to be.

If Canada is attacked by terrorists it'll probably be because of our actions in Afghanistan.

It is only because we've kept the bastards on the run, shot through the head, or blown to bits that we HAVEN'T been nailed.

More likely because we're not the ones who having been blowing up their houses and wiping out their wives and kids.
Until now.

The military is a tool of foreign policy, it is used to promote the interests of Canada.

By invading Afghanistan. Right.

Dead Islamists are in the interests of Canada.

Okey dokey, John Wayne. The only good Indian...

Seems like more dead Islamists=more suicide bombers.

Attacks by suicide bombers and other fighters have been increasing in the last year.
Apparently Afghans didn't believe in using suicide bombers until recently. Now they are. This doesn't seem like progress to me.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in war on terror

Maybe you need to study a little history about countries like Afghanistan. A great many of those people are tribalists who have been fighting invaders for 1000 years. They're not going to stop just because we showed up. They don't care who we are or why we're there. They just want us gone..

History is a great teacher if the students would attend class. Take Viet Nam. After centuries of occupation by the Chinese followed by the French, Viet Nam was moving toward self-determination under the charasmatic Ho and the brilliant military strategist Giap. But then foreign powers decided to divide the nation and put a puppet government with a Catholic leader in the south. Coastal shipping lanes get flooded with shipping. Finally a contrived incident in the Gulf of Tonkin causes an influx of troops until there were a half million foreigners in Occupation. Huge numbers of traditional farmers were moved to protected zones while Catholic government supporters claimed their lands. Despite some 4 million (mostly civilian) deaths inflicted by the American led invasion, eventually the nationalists persevered and the Occupation ended. There are so many other lessons showing that military Occupation, or foreign support of cruel dictatorships will give rise to resistence.
Much better to support than repress.

Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it. – Noam Chomsky

 

[Colpy]

WOW!

You and Neville Chamberlain.....a great pair.....although Chamberlain came around in 1940.

You should look at some very recent history. The training grounds for the group that attacked US on 9/11 were in Afghanistan. The leaders were there. The Taliban rulers of the nation were Islamist scum, who openly supported terror attacks against us. They refused to hand over the guilty parties when we asked for them. They reaped the whirlwind.

Now we are left with the responsibility to try and do our best for the people of Afghanistan. That does NOT include tucking our tail between our legs, and running away.

BTW, this is hardly Vietnam. The Yanks had 540,000 troops in Vietnam in 1967. That doesn't include forces from Australia, and South Korea. There are what.....maybe 25,000 all told foreign troops in Afghanistan? And they are hardly taking casualties.

There IS NO POPULAR UPRISING IN AFGHANISTAN!

Just scumbag Islamists that crawl out of their holes once a week to fire an RPG or two at somebody.

The big problem are local warlords, who need to be brought to heel. A tough job, and a long one.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in war on terror

WOW!
You and Neville Chamberlain.....a great pair.....although Chamberlain came around in 1940.

RESPONSE: obviously you missed a few history classes. When Hitler moved to Occupy part of Austria, Chamberlain ignored a prior treaty and allowed the Occupation to continue. He did not heed the warning from Churchhill. We are not talking 'appeasement' with Iraq or Afghanistan. We should be looking at 'self-determination' a concept lost, apparently to Americans since their own revolution.

quote="Colpy"] You should look at some very recent history. The training grounds for the group that attacked US on 9/11 were in Afghanistan.

RESPONSE: The training grounds in Afghanistan were set up to topple the Russian supported government of Afghanistan. Those camps were financed by Saudi Arabia, money laundered through Pakastan by the U.S., arms filtered through Pakastan by the U.S. and private interests by rich individuals such as Osalma. Those camps were grand opportunities for radical clerics to spread their dogma as well. After that war there were a lot of well trained, well armed and seasoned fighters with fundimentalist leanings.. But the group that attacked the US on 9/11. were trained in the U.S. in the use of their weapons. The training grounds were flight schools and the weapons were jetliners. So go attack those places.

The leaders were there. The Taliban rulers of the nation were Islamist scum, who openly supported terror attacks against us. They refused to hand over the guilty parties when we asked for them. They reaped the whirlwind.

RESPONSE: Gee, it must be heartwarming for the U.S. Gov. to learn that their propaganda worked so well. Didn't you know that the 'guilty' parties died in the smoke and rubble of 4 downed airlines. Mostly Saudis. No Iraqis. No Afghanis. Time to study current affairs??

Now we are left with the responsibility to try and do our best for the people of Afghanistan. That does NOT include tucking our tail between our legs, and running away.

REPONSE: by installing an executive of an oil company as Prime Minister and completing an oil pipeline to drain the reserves from the southern rump of the old USSR? Isn't it gratifying to know that the opium business is now bigger there than ever. Quite a recovery after that slump under the taliban. No, do not 'tuck your tail', just leave quietly for the exits, take all your weapons with you as well as that phoney democracy.

BTW, this is hardly Vietnam. The Yanks had 540,000 troops in Vietnam in 1967. That doesn't include forces from Australia, and South Korea. There are what.....maybe 25,000 all told foreign troops in Afghanistan? And they are hardly taking casualties.

RESPONSE: did you not know that the civilians of Afghanistan have died in great numbers under Occupation? I suppose the easiest way to 'help' is to put them out of their misery, right?

There IS NO POPULAR UPRISING IN AFGHANISTAN!

RESPONSE: any rising up of the people of afghanistan will be spun out as 'terrorist insurrection'. So yes, there was popular uprising under Communist rule, under Taliban rule, and now under NATO Occupation.

Just scumbag Islamists that crawl out of their holes once a week to fire an RPG or two at somebody.

RESPONSE: please be gentle with your words. These are largely Afghanis who crawl out of their holes because their country is under Occupation after they fought so hard to free it. No doubt they are angry and confused.

The big problem are local warlords, who need to be brought to heel. A tough job, and a long one.

REPONSE: You seem a little confused. Those warlords were armed through third parties, by the U.S. Including a Communist leaning warlord in the North East. They continue to garner that support. Your not suggesting that this protracted war is against them, are you?? That is so far wrong, I am beginning to wonder what you do know about Afghanistan.

 

[twotoques]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in war on terror

The leaders were there. The Taliban rulers of the nation were Islamist scum, who openly supported terror attacks against us. They refused to hand over the guilty parties when we asked for them. They reaped the whirlwind.

Now we are left with the responsibility to try and do our best for the people of Afghanistan.

Oh, c'mon. You couldn't care less about the people of Afghanistan. Otherwise you wouldn't be calling them Islamist scum and making other other offensive remarks.

The keyboard commandos who are all so ready to maim & kill people on the other side of the world remind me of George 'Bring It On' Bush. He thinks he's some kind of John Wayne cowboy swaggering down the street at high noon.

I think I heard George use that "reap the whirlwind" line, too.
What a load of movie macho crap.

There IS NO POPULAR UPRISING IN AFGHANISTAN!

How do you know that? Just curious.

I hear lots of noise about terrorists, insurgents, taliban fighters, warlords, bandits, foreign fighters.

Maybe that's all propaganda. I'm not as ready to swallow it without question as some people seem to be.

Maybe all these people are Afghans who are fighting to get their country back from invaders.

The big problem are local warlords, who need to be brought to heel. A tough job, and a long one.

From what I can understand the warlords are right back in business selling opium to all buyers. I think they're supposed to be on our side. Enemies of the taliban or anybody else who tries to interfere in the opium trade.

By the way here are some excerpts from a news item that the computer warriors will find unpalatable.

http://tinyurl.com/gzsb7

courtesy of The Toronto Star, March 1/06
OLIVIA WARD staff reporter

U.S. President George W. Bush said he went to war in Iraq to make the world safe from international terrorism. Most people believe he's failed.

According to a BBC survey done by the Canadian-headed international polling firm GlobeScan and the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes, more than half the people in 33 of 35 countries surveyed believe the war in Iraq has increased the likelihood of terrorist attacks.

"People in most countries feel the world is less safe now, and only a very few countries feel otherwise."

On average, 60 per cent of those who responded felt more vulnerable to terrorist attack since the war, while 12 per cent believed the invasion decreased the likelihood of attacks.

Meanwhile, more people than not in 20 of 35 countries think the U.S.-led forces should pull out of Iraq in the next few months. On average, 50 per cent want to see an early withdrawal of troops, while little more than one-third, 35 per cent, favour remaining until the situation has stabilized.

I don't know if the tinyurl thing will work, but you just have to type BBC terrorism poll into Google.

 

[Colpy]

Oh, c'mon. You couldn't care less about the people of Afghanistan. Otherwise you wouldn't be calling them Islamist scum and making other other offensive remarks.

I called the Taliban leaders of Afghanistan "Islamist scum". That is not the Afghan people.

Colpy wrote:
There IS NO POPULAR UPRISING IN AFGHANISTAN!


How do you know that? Just curious.

I hear lots of noise about terrorists, insurgents, taliban fighters, warlords, bandits, foreign fighters.

Maybe that's all propaganda. I'm not as ready to swallow it without question as some people seem to be.

Maybe all these people are Afghans who are fighting to get their country back from invaders.

We were comparing Afghanistan and Vietnam. In Vietnam, during the Tet Offensive, the Americans were taking thousands of casualties a month. In Irag they are taking dozens of casualties a month. In one of the most dangerous areas of Afghanistan we're taking practically no casualties. If there is a popular uprising, it is spectacularly ineffective, considering Afghanistan is awash in weapons.

From what I can understand the warlords are right back in business selling opium to all buyers. I think they're supposed to be on our side. Enemies of the taliban or anybody else who tries to interfere in the opium trade.

Unfortunately, this is true enough, and a hard nut to chew. Poopy production is lucrative like nothing else. I don't have an answer for this, but turning the country over to dope dealers, or to the Taliban is NOT the way to make us safer in the west.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Wasted resources in w

Colpy, why don,t you put your killer instinct where your mouth is and sign up for the front, I think the reality of conflict escapes you, I know the reality behind the conflict duz.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in w

Colpy, why don,t you put your killer instinct where your mouth is and sign up for the front, I think the reality of conflict escapes you, I know the reality behind the conflict duz.

"Slavery is worse than war. Dishonour is worse than war." Winston Churchill.

To abandon Afghanistan now would mean a return to slavery for the Afghan people, and dishonour to Canada as a nation.

BTW, I'm 51.

When I was 18, I was close to your political stripe, and far too interested in sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to consider the military.

A shame. I'd have been retired to consider 10 years ago.

 

[jimmoyer]

Man, there were so many sincere points brought up
by both sides that beg further discussion, it's impossible
to cover it all, point for point.

And point for point is dreadful for those of us with
ADD, we the attention deficit dummies, myself being
a member of that group.

And yet hypocritically I'm one of those long-post offenders.

So, I just gotta start some new threads on some of
the points brought up in this Mother Of All Threads
(MOAT).

So bring down your drawbrigdes over this MOAT.

Prepare to ENGAGE !!

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in w

Colpy, why don,t you put your killer instinct where your mouth is and sign up for the front, I think the reality of conflict escapes you, I know the reality behind the conflict duz.

"Slavery is worse than war. Dishonour is worse than war." Winston Churchill.

To abandon Afghanistan now would mean a return to slavery for the Afghan people, and dishonour to Canada as a nation.

BTW, I'm 51.

When I was 18, I was close to your political stripe, and far too interested in sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to consider the military.

A shame. I'd have been retired to consider 10 years ago.

Churchhill said a lot of stupid things.I don,t want to abandon the Afgan people, I,am 53 so your just a little snot, I,am still interested in sex drugs and R&R, many soldiers are retired the hard way.
PS: When I was 18 I was exactly of your political stripe, one of us has undergone a regression. :lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in war on terror

Man, there were so many sincere points brought up
by both sides that beg further discussion, it's impossible
to cover it all, point for point.

And point for point is dreadful for those of us with
ADD, we the attention deficit dummies, myself being
a member of that group.

And yet hypocritically I'm one of those long-post offenders.

So, I just gotta start some new threads on some of
the points brought up in this Mother Of All Threads
(MOAT).

So bring down your drawbrigdes over this MOAT.

Prepare to ENGAGE !!

ADD=(attention deficit dummies)
ADD=(ADHERANTS of DEFUNCT DESIGN)

gooday Jimmoyer. :lol:

 

[PoisonPete2]

its the 50 year old men who beat the drums of war. It is the 18 year old men who die in it.

People have not been horrified by war to a sufficient extent ... War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige as the warrior does today: John Fitzgerald Kennedy

 

[FiveParadox]

Not to go too far off-topic, but jimmoyer, I have noticed in a majority of your posts that you tend to manually break the lines; why? Heh. Just curious.

 

[Mogz]

RE: Wasted resources in w

How are Canadians fighting in Afghanistan going to stop Canada from being attacked by terrorists?

Do you actually read/watch the news? Why are the same questions constantly thrown out by people? Are you that uneducated? Afghanistan is a terrorist haven due to the fact it was utterly lawless pre-2001. As a result training camps were in place to train muslims to conduct a "jihad". Couple that with the fact that Al-qaeda has listed Canada as one of the top six threats to Islam and I think the issue is self-evident. For those that cannot draw a correlation on their own, allow me to assist:

Lawless nation + training camps + extremists pissed at Canada = potential terrorist threat

Can't be much clearer than that amigos.

A great many of those people are tribalists who have been fighting invaders for 1000 years. They're not going to stop just because we showed up. They don't care who we are or why we're there. They just want us gone.

Eh, no. While they are a tribal nation many Afghans actually support Canada. When I did my tour there, once a week we'd leave Camp Julien and make stops throughout the city. By and large the people love us there. My section helped build eleven (11) wells in the area surrounding Kabul during my roto and let me tell you, nothing beats working for days on end to get people the basic elements to live, and then having them come up and try to offer you gifts when they're already dirt poor. It shows how much they appreciate us and it makes me honestly feel good about what you've done for them. I had the chance to speak with numerous Afghans during my tour and all but a handful were ecstatic about us being there. A few (the ill informed) thought we were going to do to Afghanistan what the U.S. was doing in Iraq; occupy them. The ones in tune with reality saw the Kabul Multinational Brigade (KMNB) for what it was, a security force there to stop the Taliban and Al-qaeda from resurging and oppressing the people again. To sum up, the average Afghan does not want Canada to pull out, for if we do, they know their lives will sink back in to the hell it was before 2001.

Oh, yeah. Boogey Man bin Laden. I bet he's got a lot more important things to worry about then attacking Canada. Like keeping his head down and where his next hideout is going to be.

Actually considering we're in the G8, a close ally to the U.S., and are one of the most dedicated nations to the war on terror, he has every intention of taking us out where ever he can. Then again, if you read the news you'd know this.

More likely because we're not the ones who having been blowing up their houses and wiping out their wives and kids.
Until now.

This may come as a total shock to you, but uh, we've been fighting in Afghanistan since 2001. Yeah...not just recently...yeah...2001...5 years...yeah. Did you hear that? Oh right, it was your argument going down the toilet. *swish*

By invading Afghanistan. Right.

Exactly right. Our military has deployed in to Afghanistan to prevent the unrest that is present there from ever spilling in to the Western World. If we just pack up, leave Afghanistan, and pretend everything is ok how long until some nut flys another plane in to another building somewhere? How long until the Afghans are opressed again and forced to live in the dark ages?

Attacks by suicide bombers and other fighters have been increasing in the last year.
Apparently Afghans didn't believe in using suicide bombers until recently. Now they are. This doesn't seem like progress to me.

Once again, uninformed. As with Iraq, the vast majority of suicide bombers in Afghanistan come from other Countires; mainly Saudi Arabian, Iran, and Syria. Nice try there Mr. you.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Wasted resources in w

[]

Churchhill said a lot of stupid things.I don,t want to abandon the Afgan people, I,am 53 so your just a little snot, I,am still interested in sex drugs and R&R, many soldiers are retired the hard way.
PS: When I was 18 I was exactly of your political stripe, one of us has undergone a regression. :lol:

Also Churchill (from memory) "anyone who is not a communist at 16 has no heart. Anyone who is not a conservative at 40 has no brain."