Wasted resources in war on terror
- Thread starter dumpthemonarchy
- Start date
dumpthemonarchy said:
I think you are getting things mixed up a little, but the basic theme (as I understand it) has some merit: that foreign aid can have a HUGE impact in the 'war on terror'. I promise I won't say "root causes" 8O , but everyone knows that desperation, poverty and instability create a fertile ground for terrorism to take root. That's why I've always said that the US's 100's of Billion$ earmarked for ballistic missile defense is a joke: it would do FAR more for their security if they spend the money on direct aid to Middle Eastern countries, or in Africa.
But that doesn't mean that foreign aid can ever take the place of a sound defense policy. Canada will always need their own military, and that military will always need to be equipped and maintained, and that will always cost a lot of money.
I'm a little down on Afghanistan because I wonder, why didn't the US send 50,000 troops there to permanently squash the Taliban and al-Qaeda? Cut down all the opium and force peace upon the country? Because the real target was always Iraq, even if Bush didn't know it. Thanks to the slick operators Cheney & co. Many Cdns, 60% in fact, rightly smell a rat here on this endless "war on terror".
Spend military/foreign aid to Afghn. like microcredit, a little can go a long way and the control is local. Those who succeed get more and after a while due to success they don't need or want any more foreign money or control.
Afghanistan needs some support from us to allow the people to work out a military/political solution that suits their needs.
Spend military/foreign aid to Afghn. like microcredit, a little can go a long way and the control is local. Those who succeed get more and after a while due to success they don't need or want any more foreign money or control.
Afghanistan needs some support from us to allow the people to work out a military/political solution that suits their needs.
dumpthemonarchy said:
For starters, Canada would like to stabilize the region without tossing craploads of weapons in their lap. Remember the last time the West did that? IN the same country? Yep, that was the Taliban, and how'd that work out in the end?
Keeping a force on the ground will help rebuild the society without arming groups that may, later on, become the next Theocracy, Warlords, or Drug gangs. Until the country is fully functioning as a state, Canada should not be handing out arms willy-nilly to whomever lines up for one. That was done too much during the Cold War, and now we're reaping the whirlwind.
"Let us all remember that peace and democracy are not IMPOSED...they must grow out of a grass roots movement."
As nice as that would be...When faced with the mindset and ethics of the Taliban, warlords, and Al Queda peace MUST be imposed, only then can democracy, in whatever form they choose, begin to take a foothold.
As for the purchase of strategic lift aircraft what happens the next time we have a general in some far off country screaming for help to prevent a masacre? Do we repeat Rwanda and stand back and watch? Or do we quickly load up our large capable planes and quickly impose peace?
As nice as that would be...When faced with the mindset and ethics of the Taliban, warlords, and Al Queda peace MUST be imposed, only then can democracy, in whatever form they choose, begin to take a foothold.
As for the purchase of strategic lift aircraft what happens the next time we have a general in some far off country screaming for help to prevent a masacre? Do we repeat Rwanda and stand back and watch? Or do we quickly load up our large capable planes and quickly impose peace?
Any imposed "peace" would need to be "imposed" for many,many years to come.
As I've already said,the Middle East has porous borders and insurgents of all stripes will continue to foment...like little brush fires in a tinder dry countryside.
Is this what we want for our Canadian military? Is this the best use of our human and fiscal resources?
When anyone enters such a venture,it's as important to know how to withdraw,and have a plan for a withdrawal. That was one of Bush's biggest mistakes,and the Americans are going to be on the hook for a long time in Iraq.
As I've already said,the Middle East has porous borders and insurgents of all stripes will continue to foment...like little brush fires in a tinder dry countryside.
Is this what we want for our Canadian military? Is this the best use of our human and fiscal resources?
When anyone enters such a venture,it's as important to know how to withdraw,and have a plan for a withdrawal. That was one of Bush's biggest mistakes,and the Americans are going to be on the hook for a long time in Iraq.
Re: RE: Wasted resources in w
Although the plan wouldn't do much to help Afghanistan, it would greatly improve Canada.
Anyone who thinks that democracy can be forced on countries like Afghanistan needs to cut down on their drugs.
They tossed out the British & the Russians and who knows how many other invading armies before, and now Canada is going to be the new saviour/colonizer?
Could be this be the beginning of the New World Order? Canada. Global Peace Maker.
Instead of imagining yourselves the conquering heroes (we're just trying to make you more like us so you'll all be happy), try thinking like the owners of the country that's being invaded (this is our country. Get out or we'll kill you.)
I read something about long term commitment. So how long would that be? 5 years? 20?
How many billions of dollars?
How many dead Canadians?
And then there's also the increased risk of being targeted by lunatic terrorists right here in Canada because we're now right in there with the US & Britain.
This is the US government's withdrawal plan for Afghanistan. Get some other fool to take over.
Like someone already said, a backbone is useless without a brain.
the caracal kid said:
Although the plan wouldn't do much to help Afghanistan, it would greatly improve Canada.
Anyone who thinks that democracy can be forced on countries like Afghanistan needs to cut down on their drugs.
They tossed out the British & the Russians and who knows how many other invading armies before, and now Canada is going to be the new saviour/colonizer?
Could be this be the beginning of the New World Order? Canada. Global Peace Maker.
Instead of imagining yourselves the conquering heroes (we're just trying to make you more like us so you'll all be happy), try thinking like the owners of the country that's being invaded (this is our country. Get out or we'll kill you.)
I read something about long term commitment. So how long would that be? 5 years? 20?
How many billions of dollars?
How many dead Canadians?
And then there's also the increased risk of being targeted by lunatic terrorists right here in Canada because we're now right in there with the US & Britain.
This is the US government's withdrawal plan for Afghanistan. Get some other fool to take over.
Like someone already said, a backbone is useless without a brain.
So, we abandon Afghanistan.
The Taliban take over again, terrorist training camps spring up, and the next set of aircraft fly into the CN Tower. Or the next car bomb is in a Jewish community in Montreal.
How many billions of dollars?
How many Canadian lives lost?
You people need to pull your head out of the sand. Islamist radicals are not fighting for Afghanistan, they are fighting for an Islamist WORLD order.
Osama listed Canada among his list of top targets in a tape a couple of years ago. Like the top FIVE. Almost all the others have been hit. It is only because we've kept the bastards on the run, shot through the head, or blown to bits that we HAVEN'T been nailed.
The military is a tool of foreign policy, it is used to promote the interests of Canada.
Dead Islamists are in the interests of Canada.
The Taliban take over again, terrorist training camps spring up, and the next set of aircraft fly into the CN Tower. Or the next car bomb is in a Jewish community in Montreal.
How many billions of dollars?
How many Canadian lives lost?
You people need to pull your head out of the sand. Islamist radicals are not fighting for Afghanistan, they are fighting for an Islamist WORLD order.
Osama listed Canada among his list of top targets in a tape a couple of years ago. Like the top FIVE. Almost all the others have been hit. It is only because we've kept the bastards on the run, shot through the head, or blown to bits that we HAVEN'T been nailed.
The military is a tool of foreign policy, it is used to promote the interests of Canada.
Dead Islamists are in the interests of Canada.
RE: Wasted resources in w
Our involvment in Afganistan will result in attacks on our soil and people faster than any other course of action. You assert that our military is a tool of foriegn policy used to promote national interest abroad, this idiocy has already led to the birth of islamic fundamentalism and precipitated countless acts of what you refer to as terrorism. I would say that rather than dead islamists, dead christian fundamentalists would actually promote Canadian interests.You also don,t know or refuse to acknowlege who the worlds leading terrorists are.
Our involvment in Afganistan will result in attacks on our soil and people faster than any other course of action. You assert that our military is a tool of foriegn policy used to promote national interest abroad, this idiocy has already led to the birth of islamic fundamentalism and precipitated countless acts of what you refer to as terrorism. I would say that rather than dead islamists, dead christian fundamentalists would actually promote Canadian interests.You also don,t know or refuse to acknowlege who the worlds leading terrorists are.
Re: RE: Wasted resources in w
Now you are stepping on my toes, BIG time.
I was brought up by Christian fundamentalists. My father was a backwoods Baptist deacon, and the gentlest, most honest man I have ever met. My mother, who still lives, is as kind, as generous, and as tolerant as you can imagine.
Now, were I a Islamic fundamentalist, I would seek out an imam to pronounce a fatwa, hunt you down, and behead you. :x
Luckily for you, I am a Christian, so I will let this go. Geez, can you see the difference?
Probably not.
Are we agreeing yet?
Islamic fundamentalism is the result of western policies? It is to laugh. What have we done, poured trillions of dollars into their economies buying their oil? The horror!
If you are saying the west is responsible for Islamist terror, then you are beyond all help.
BTW, modern free societies have only developed in Christian nations, or under the rule of Christian nations......because Christianity is a religion of choice.
You really should read some, get an education.
Oh yeah. Jon Stewart's show is ENTERTAINMENT, not reality.
Geez!
darkbeaver said:
Now you are stepping on my toes, BIG time.
I was brought up by Christian fundamentalists. My father was a backwoods Baptist deacon, and the gentlest, most honest man I have ever met. My mother, who still lives, is as kind, as generous, and as tolerant as you can imagine.
Now, were I a Islamic fundamentalist, I would seek out an imam to pronounce a fatwa, hunt you down, and behead you. :x
Luckily for you, I am a Christian, so I will let this go. Geez, can you see the difference?
Probably not.
Are we agreeing yet?
Islamic fundamentalism is the result of western policies? It is to laugh. What have we done, poured trillions of dollars into their economies buying their oil? The horror!
If you are saying the west is responsible for Islamist terror, then you are beyond all help.
BTW, modern free societies have only developed in Christian nations, or under the rule of Christian nations......because Christianity is a religion of choice.
You really should read some, get an education.
Oh yeah. Jon Stewart's show is ENTERTAINMENT, not reality.
Geez!
Re: RE: Wasted resources in w
Touche.
The Daily Show, which I have watched on occassion, when I get home at 3 AM after work and can't sleep.
darkbeaver said:
Touche.
The Daily Show, which I have watched on occassion, when I get home at 3 AM after work and can't sleep.
"BTW, modern free societies have only developed in Christian nations, or under the rule of Christian nations......because Christianity is a religion of choice. "
this may shock you, but the modern free societies you worship so much exist in spite of christianity, not because of it.
this may shock you, but the modern free societies you worship so much exist in spite of christianity, not because of it.
"this may shock you, but the modern free societies you worship so much exist in spite of christianity, not because of it. "
------------------------------------caracal kid-----------------
Your observation is both right on one level, and
wrong on another level.
Last year my daughter and I had a German exchange
student from schwarze wald, black forest area and
she went to a gymnasium specializing in languages,
but this 13 grade high school compelled all of its
students to take religious history ----something that
is less than scintillating to western teenagers
universally.
But such a course in the history of religion before
nation-states gained dominance is instructive.
Obviously your observation speaks to many negatives
of western Christian history, such as the Inquisition,
the House arrest of Galileo, the greed of accepting
money for absolving sins, the burning of books, and the authority of a church that monopolized
the only interpretation of the truth.
But then there's another side that formed many
of our democratic beliefs of tolerance.
The Protestant Reformation gave people the idea
that YOU can think for yourself, that the Church
can help you but not rule you.
That's the gleam of independence.
The Reformation also gave more room to allowing
the people to read THE BOOK for themselves, which
pre-shadowed acceptance for other books as well.
Although it can be said that the Catholic Church's
belief that the BIBLE is NOT the only source, but
rather a major one of many Church interpretations ---
something we forget as we have this very-PROTESTANT
way of interpreting ISLAM by emphasizing ONLY the Koran, when rather it too is one major source among a whole history of interpretations by Islamic clerics.
And then the radical Christians, the fire-breathing
ones, were the very ones who led the vanguard
against slavery in the United States, calling it an
abomination and scaring the moderates with all the
fire of the OLD TESTAMENT.
But then you look at the tolerance spoken of in
the New Testament, and you look at the fact that
the only book in a lower class home throughout
the Western world was the BIBLE.
That book was in every home during the spirit
of independence.
Your observation, then, on that level is wrong.
------------------------------------caracal kid-----------------
Your observation is both right on one level, and
wrong on another level.
Last year my daughter and I had a German exchange
student from schwarze wald, black forest area and
she went to a gymnasium specializing in languages,
but this 13 grade high school compelled all of its
students to take religious history ----something that
is less than scintillating to western teenagers
universally.
But such a course in the history of religion before
nation-states gained dominance is instructive.
Obviously your observation speaks to many negatives
of western Christian history, such as the Inquisition,
the House arrest of Galileo, the greed of accepting
money for absolving sins, the burning of books, and the authority of a church that monopolized
the only interpretation of the truth.
But then there's another side that formed many
of our democratic beliefs of tolerance.
The Protestant Reformation gave people the idea
that YOU can think for yourself, that the Church
can help you but not rule you.
That's the gleam of independence.
The Reformation also gave more room to allowing
the people to read THE BOOK for themselves, which
pre-shadowed acceptance for other books as well.
Although it can be said that the Catholic Church's
belief that the BIBLE is NOT the only source, but
rather a major one of many Church interpretations ---
something we forget as we have this very-PROTESTANT
way of interpreting ISLAM by emphasizing ONLY the Koran, when rather it too is one major source among a whole history of interpretations by Islamic clerics.
And then the radical Christians, the fire-breathing
ones, were the very ones who led the vanguard
against slavery in the United States, calling it an
abomination and scaring the moderates with all the
fire of the OLD TESTAMENT.
But then you look at the tolerance spoken of in
the New Testament, and you look at the fact that
the only book in a lower class home throughout
the Western world was the BIBLE.
That book was in every home during the spirit
of independence.
Your observation, then, on that level is wrong.
lest we forget though that the new world was sought after to be free of the control of the church.
and the idea of being free to think for oneself stems back to ancient greece which just so happens to have been one of the influencing forces on the "christianity".
and the idea of being free to think for oneself stems back to ancient greece which just so happens to have been one of the influencing forces on the "christianity".
And the Protestant Reformation quite shows
that protest, and like all good protesters they
protested each other by splitting into many splinter
groups.
This was grass roots by people who barely heard
of Athens, and who found a new independence
in being allowed to read the only book they had,
written in their own vernacular.
Like I say, you're right on one level, but seriously
missing on the other level.
...said the grouch...
that protest, and like all good protesters they
protested each other by splitting into many splinter
groups.
This was grass roots by people who barely heard
of Athens, and who found a new independence
in being allowed to read the only book they had,
written in their own vernacular.
Like I say, you're right on one level, but seriously
missing on the other level.
...said the grouch...
the grouch,
but what your missing is the "freedom to think" that came from ancient Greece is incorporated into the writings of the NT. The NT is a poor remake of so much that came before it. While these people may have not known the source of their inspiration, it does not change what the source was.
but what your missing is the "freedom to think" that came from ancient Greece is incorporated into the writings of the NT. The NT is a poor remake of so much that came before it. While these people may have not known the source of their inspiration, it does not change what the source was.
Ah the pirouette dancing in a room, spinning to see all
of the room, noting this, noting that, none of it
cancelling the other.
"While these people may have not known the source of their inspiration, it does not change what the source was," says Caracal Kid.
For those of the grass roots Protestant Reformation
the source was not known by the many of them, but
this new claimed ability to read a book in their own
language led them to find the source you proclaim,
and so a beautiful lineage was re-discovered, much
enhanced by the self-knowlege that they figured
it out all by themselves without knowing someone
else had figured it out before them.
When Ben Franklin wrote of the concept of
federalism thought out by the Iriquois nations he was
eclectic enough not to dismiss any source by
over-emphazing another, and so I'll raise the level
of religious history very much contributing to
western development, picking up the ball after a
long lapse that began during and after the fall of Rome.
of the room, noting this, noting that, none of it
cancelling the other.
"While these people may have not known the source of their inspiration, it does not change what the source was," says Caracal Kid.
For those of the grass roots Protestant Reformation
the source was not known by the many of them, but
this new claimed ability to read a book in their own
language led them to find the source you proclaim,
and so a beautiful lineage was re-discovered, much
enhanced by the self-knowlege that they figured
it out all by themselves without knowing someone
else had figured it out before them.
When Ben Franklin wrote of the concept of
federalism thought out by the Iriquois nations he was
eclectic enough not to dismiss any source by
over-emphazing another, and so I'll raise the level
of religious history very much contributing to
western development, picking up the ball after a
long lapse that began during and after the fall of Rome.
Jimmoyer have you read The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail.
----------------------------darkbeaver--------------
LOL !!
The answer is NO.
Please don't let me get stuck in your beaver dam.
----------------------------darkbeaver--------------
LOL !!
The answer is NO.
Please don't let me get stuck in your beaver dam.