Vatican/Holy See, State, or not?

[AnnaG]

Isn't that the stereotype, all Italians are Catholics, all Irish are Catholic too and like to fight. And all Russians were communists. And all communist nations were the same.

Then, by all means get your ticket to Italy and tell them to take action against the Vatican.

Gotta love that mass Canadian thinking-or lack of it.

Don'tcha, though. roflmao

They were discussing recently taking crucifixes out of schools in Italy. That's a very Catholic thing to do isn't it.

Did the gov't actually do it? If they did do that, did people not take their own to school? lol
Like I said, I have fantasies, too. It's nothing to be ashamed of, DTM

 

[eh1eh]

Canadian Consulate to the Vatican
Address:
Via della Conciliazione 4-D,
00193 Rome, Italy
Telephone: +39-06-6830-7316
Fax: +39-06-6880-6283
E-Mail: vatcn@dfait-maeci.gc.ca
Canadian Embassy in the Vatican – Holy See - Canuck Abroad

You'll like this one...

Embassy of Canada to the Holy See

Bugger. I would question my government on that but none the less there it is.

 

[eh1eh]

Well, then show me opposing links. Don't just say my links are no good.
Addresses:
Via della Conciliazione 4-D,
00193 Rome, Italy
vatcn@dfait-maeci.gc.ca

Yes well any links I showed you would have the same validity. Although I've head Wiki is the definitive on anything so we can just go by whatever they say.

 

[AnnaG]

Yes well any links I showed you would have the same validity. Although I've head Wiki is the definitive on anything so we can just go by whatever they say.

Who says Wiki is the definitive answer to everything? There's a disclaimer about validity in a lot of its pages. If one has doubts about something in Wiki, there is usually links to sources at the bottom. So Wiki actually may not be an authority but it is definitely a good source to find them.
So anyway, are you going to post links to countries disputing the Vatican is a state?

Something like this:


Embassies Of The Vatican (Holy See)- Consulates Of The Vatican (Holy See)

 

[eh1eh]

Who says Wiki is the definitive answer to everything? There's a disclaimer about validity in a lot of its pages. If one has doubts about something in Wiki, there is usually links to sources at the bottom. So Wiki actually may not be an authority but it is definitely a good source to find them.
So anyway, are you going to post links to countries disputing the Vatican is a state?

Something like this:


Embassies Of The Vatican (Holy See)- Consulates Of The Vatican (Holy See)

Sarcasm dear, sarcasm. Sorry.

 

[AnnaG]

Sarcasm dear, sarcasm. Sorry.

lmao It's hard to tell sometimes.

 

[Mickey1]

Sorry, I haven't read anything but I think Vatican / Holy See is a "real" state...
quote : "Independence: 11 February 1929 (from Italy); note - the three treaties signed with Italy on 11 February 1929 acknowledged, among other things, the full sovereignty of the Vatican and established its territorial extent; however, the origin of the Papal States, which over the years have varied considerably in extent, may be traced back to the 8th century"

cheers

 

[gerryh]

I understand your frustration Gh. Hence my ginger attempt at discussion and keep it as such. I actually implore to join in and merely ignore the possible bait that may be tossed out.

ok

Well... would you maybe be willing to talk to ME about it gerry? I don't expect for even one moment that our views on the issue are the same. It seems a lot of Catholics are nowhere near as angry as I am at the Pope, and so I've been curious to hear some of your views on the issue.

My views..... well..... I've been pissed of at the Church for some time now. Our local Bishop had the gaul to allow a priest that had been identified as a pedophile to be transferred to the Calgary diocese. That went over like a lead baloon with the local Catholics and he was transferred out of our diocese.

Pope John Paul had given me hope, and is probably the main reason I returned to the Church. Pope Benedict has not. In my opinion, he should step down. The Cardinals should do a search and find, somewhere, a candidate for Pope that is untouched by these scandals. Someone that is willing to take the hardline and turn the known pedophiles over to the local authorities. Someone that is willing to defrock any and all priests that are found guilty of pedophilia.

We'll start with that Karrie.

 

[karrie]

We'll start with that Karrie.

I love that start.

 

[gerryh]

I love that start.

I will add this. Even though I am very unhappy with our present Pope, and the Bishops and Cardinals that have sought to hide and obfuscate this horrendous problem, I will NOT stand by and allow those NOT of our Faith to sh*t kick the RCC, or the Holy Father. The problem is an internal problem and those on the outside do NOT have a say as to it's resolution. Talk of arresting the Holy Father during one of his trips outside the Vatican is heresy. If it was actually acted upon, then that I would consider that an act of war against the entire Holy Roman Catholic Church.

 

[karrie]

I will add this. Even though I am very unhappy with our present Pope, and the Bishops and Cardinals that have sought to hide and obfuscate this horrendous problem, I will NOT stand by and allow those NOT of our Faith to sh*t kick the RCC, or the Holy Father. The problem is an internal problem and those on the outside do NOT have a say as to it's resolution. Talk of arresting the Holy Father during one of his trips outside the Vatican is heresy. If it was actually acted upon, then that I would consider that an act of war against the entire Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Here's where perhaps we part opinion a bit. Child abuse is NEVER just an internal problem. A system is either meeting international standards for child protection, or it isn't. I think it's fair for people to demand that it be brought to light thoroughly if it is not meeting those standards. I think the fair step is to leave it to the Church to deal with it, BUT, is it not fair to expect that it becomes everyone else's right to address it if we fail to properly?

 

[gerryh]

Here's where perhaps we part opinion a bit. Child abuse is NEVER just an internal problem. A system is either meeting international standards for child protection, or it isn't. I think it's fair for people to demand that it be brought to light thoroughly if it is not meeting those standards. I think the fair step is to leave it to the Church to deal with it, BUT, is it not fair to expect that it becomes everyone else's right to address it if we fail to properly?

IF it is not addressed. The Holy Father has implemented some steps towards taking care of the problem as YJ and Coldstream have pointed out. Is it enough? Not nearly.....yet......

Internal pressure must be applied from the bottom up, as is happening. External pressure will only harden stances, and slow the changes needed. This is a problem that has been happening for decades, it is not something that can be resolved over night.

 

[Cliffy]

Abused children may become abusers, and they may not be restricted to kids within the church. They may also become mentally and emotionally imbalanced, thus becoming a problem and a burden on the rest of society. This, I think justifies "outsiders" to have concern and an interest in seeing this problem resolved.

Considering that this seems to be a world wide problem in the church, the rest of the world has a right to have a say in the outcome as well.

 

[karrie]

Abused children may become abusers, and they may not be restricted to kids within the church. They may also become mentally and emotionally imbalanced, thus becoming a problem and a burden on the rest of society. This, I think justifies "outsiders" to have concern and an interest in seeing this problem resolved.

Considering that this seems to be a world wide problem in the church, the rest of the world has a right to have a say in the outcome as well.

The abuse is definitely the right of everyone to be concerned about imo. But, there seems to be an issue of people taking it as the chance to decide how EVERYTHING in the church should go, despite understanding and valuing none of it.

 

[gerryh]

The abuse is definitely the right of everyone to be concerned about imo. But, there seems to be an issue of people taking it as the chance to decide how EVERYTHING in the church should go, despite understanding and valuing none of it.

exactley

 

[theconqueror]

I just keep laughing how everyone thinks this world is opt to democratic vote... :lol:

 

[CDNBear]

I will NOT stand by and allow those NOT of our Faith to sh*t kick the RCC, or the Holy Father.

Although I am not of the Faith, I support that sentiment. You have to expect some blowback from this. Don't get me wrong Gh, the majority of the crap thrown at you and Karrie here, (CC, not this thread) has been nothing more then petty BS. But on a broader scope, the general public has grown tired of the Church shuffling, obfuscating and otherwise twiddling its thumbs on this issue. The steps taken to date, are in my honest opinion, window dressing and will not progress. If the Church were serious, they would act swift and without mercy on this issue.

They won't, that would open them to civil litigation. The one saving grace the Church had, was that each Diocese, is a singular entity. Thus only the Diocese itself could be civilly libel. If it is found that the highest position, has been used to shelter and protect criminality, the main body of the Church, the Holy See is now libel.

They don't fear the Law, they fear the accountant for the Claimant.

The problem is an internal problem and those on the outside do NOT have a say as to it's resolution.

I couldn't disagree more. The impact of the Churches inaction is beyond the borders of the Church, therefore all those beyond them have a right to opine on what it has done.

Talk of arresting the Holy Father during one of his trips outside the Vatican is heresy.

An act so infinitesimal compared to the horrors he has possibly facilitated and covered up.

If it was actually acted upon, then that I would consider that an act of war against the entire Holy Roman Catholic Church.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

I think the fair step is to leave it to the Church to deal with it, BUT, is it not fair to expect that it becomes everyone else's right to address it if we fail to properly?

How long should be given to the Church to hand over the records and the alleged criminals Karrie?

IF it is not addressed. The Holy Father has implemented some steps towards taking care of the problem as YJ and Coldstream have pointed out. Is it enough? Not nearly.....yet......

Agreed, and I still think it's window dressing.

Internal pressure must be applied from the bottom up, as is happening. External pressure will only harden stances, and slow the changes needed. This is a problem that has been happening for decades, it is not something that can be resolved over night.

I would need to see the collective congregations rallying in the streets to believe they want to see justice....chirp, chirp....

The abuse is definitely the right of everyone to be concerned about imo. But, there seems to be an issue of people taking it as the chance to decide how EVERYTHING in the church should go, despite understanding and valuing none of it.

Karrie, you know full well that is not my goal, and I state this clearly and concisely, I would take up arms to protect the Churches right to be, and to rule itself. So long as it addresses these issues, post haste and with conviction.

 

[karrie]

Karrie, you know full well that is not my goal, and I state this clearly and concisely, I would take up arms to protect the Churches right to be, and to rule itself. So long as it addresses these issues, post haste and with conviction.

I know Bear.

 

[gerryh]

Although I am not of the Faith, I support that sentiment. You have to expect some blowback from this. Don't get me wrong Gh, the majority of the crap thrown at you and Karrie here, (CC, not this thread) has been nothing more then petty BS. But on a broader scope, the general public has grown tired of the Church shuffling, obfuscating and otherwise twiddling its thumbs on this issue. The steps taken to date, are in my honest opinion, window dressing and will not progress. If the Church were serious, they would act swift and without mercy on this issue.

The general public is not the only ones that are fed up. You, and everyone else need to remember that the vast majority of the kids that were abused were Catholic, and Catholics are getting fed up with the appearance of nothing being done. With Priests being shuffled around under the apparent guise of "out of sight, out of mind".

They won't, that would open them to civil litigation. The one saving grace the Church had, was that each Diocese, is a singular entity. Thus only the Diocese itself could be civilly libel. If it is found that the highest position, has been used to shelter and protect criminality, the main body of the Church, the Holy See is now libel.

As has been pointed out, the accusations against Pope Benedict stem from before he was Pope.

I couldn't disagree more. The impact of the Churches inaction is beyond the borders of the Church, therefore all those beyond them have a right to opine on what it has done.
An act so infinitesimal compared to the horrors he has possibly facilitated and covered up.

Voicing an opinion is far different than what Hitchens is proposing.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

You responded below.

Karrie, you know full well that is not my goal, and I state this clearly and concisely, I would take up arms to protect the Churches right to be, and to rule itself. So long as it addresses these issues, post haste and with conviction.

It appears that you and many others do not understand the position that the Pope/Holy See occupies in the RCC.

In my perfect world, Pope Benedict as the infallible Holy See, needs to make one of those infallible decisions. That decision would be to step down as Pope and face his accusers as an ordinary man. Since the Pope is considered infallible, he can NOT admit to "making a mistake". Ordinary people, Priests, Bishops, and even Cardinals can make mistakes. The Pope can not. You may not agree with it, but that is a fact of the RCC. Given that, can you now understand why arresting the Holy Father would not be such a good idea, and in fact, may be detrimental to what you want achieved?

As for things happening quickly. I would love to see that happen, but I am realist enough to realize that an organization that administers and ministers to over 1 billion people world wide is not going to move quick as a mouse.

 

[darkbeaver]

Wasn't this in Revelations? Benny XIV anti-christ in charge.