USA - Good - Bad and or the Ugly

[Dexter Sinister]

Let's assume the Christian God divinely inspired minds and events to help man create a free nation. Is it wrong to do this?

Yes I think it is. Why would you assume that? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Why do you suppose that provision is in the U.S. Constitution? It's because the founders knew exactly how dangerous it is to give religious authorities secular power, so they forbade the creation of an official state religion and denied religious authority any role in the secular affairs of the nation. Actually the 17th century Dutch republic was the first to do that, and doesn't often get credit for it, but the separation of church and state is one of the really crucial ideas behind the existence of any modern civilized nation. Secular power in the hands of religion is a recipe for tyranny.

 

[Goober]

Huge assumption. If the Christian god inspired the original invaders I would have to repeat that he must have been and still is a psychopath. The slaughter of the aboriginal population, particularly after they saved the original pilgrim's asses from starving to death, and the slave trade in blacks proves to me that the only freedom that the original pilgrims wanted was for themselves and no body else. Their intolerance toward anything non christian culminated in such wonderful acts of charity as the Salem witch hunts. Now that was inspiring!

There is no freedom in any political system, and there is no real democracy. We still live in a feudal system only we have traded aristocracy for corporations. The only freedom any of us can have is outside political and religious systems (dogma). We are enslaved by dept (our bodies) and propaganda (our minds). The only freedom we have is in our spirit which is beyond the control of the Matrix.

Cliffy -Fine and dandy but for us uneducated - the great unwashed - explain the matrix -
I am sure that you have put great thought into this -

So post a thread explaining what the Matrix is.

To you there is no freedom - In my opinion you have to reach out and grab it - hold on as it is always a fight - Prepare to lose often but the times when you when are ever so sweet -

Winston Churchill famously said that democracy was the worst form of government - except for all the others that have been tried.

Perhaps you have tired of the fight - many do - and no shame in that - so in your thread on the matrix you could expand upon what your beliefs are - I do not mean this in any way to be an insult but I am curious as to your inner held belief system and how you arrived at it - I am sure that others will contribute. I posted a couple of videos that I felt helped explain frredom. Another for your enjoyment.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/882018/braveheart_freedom_speech/

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Since we judge God all the time on this forum, why don't we look at the merits of the creation of America? Let's assume the Christian God divinely inspired minds and events to help man create a free nation. Is it wrong to do this?

Really alley? Christian God inspired the minds and events of men? Did he inspire the Bill of Rights? Then let us see what he inspired.

The original US Constitution, as written, permitted slavery, it was OK to own slaves under the constitution. It needed a subsequent constitutional amendment (and a civil war) to get rid of the slavery.

The constitution (and the Bill of Rights) permitted denying women the vote. Under the Bill of Rights, states were free to allow women to vote or not as they saw fit (and most of them didn’t see fit). It needed a subsequent constitutional amendment to give women the vote.

If these men were inspired by Christian God, that tells me that Christian God is a very narrow minded, racist and sexist individual. If an all loving, compassionate God had influenced the minds of the founding fathers, they would have outlawed slavery from the word go, they would have given women he vote from the word go. But they did not do it, I think Washington owned slaves.

The US constitution and Bill of Rights was inspired by men and there is nothing divine about it. It was the best that could be done in those days, and reflects well on the Founding Fathers. They were visionary for their times. However, that doesn’t mean that US Constitution and Bill of Rights are prefect, divinely inspired documents. They are deeply flawed (because they were inspired by men). If we had to do it today, we would do a much better job (and we did, when we came up with the Charter of Rights).

 

[JLM]

Really alley? Christian God inspired the minds and events of men? Did he inspire the Bill of Rights? Then let us see what he inspired.

The original US Constitution, as written, permitted slavery, it was OK to own slaves under the constitution. It needed a subsequent constitutional amendment (and a civil war) to get rid of the slavery.

The constitution (and the Bill of Rights) permitted denying women the vote. Under the Bill of Rights, states were free to allow women to vote or not as they saw fit (and most of them didn’t see fit). It needed a subsequent constitutional amendment to give women the vote.

If these men were inspired by Christian God, that tells me that Christian God is a very narrow minded, racist and sexist individual. If an all loving, compassionate God had influenced the minds of the founding fathers, they would have outlawed slavery from the word go, they would have given women he vote from the word go. But they did not do it, I think Washington owned slaves.

The US constitution and Bill of Rights was inspired by men and there is nothing divine about it. It was the best that could be done in those days, and reflects well on the Founding Fathers. They were visionary for their times. However, that doesn’t mean that US Constitution and Bill of Rights are prefect, divinely inspired documents. They are deeply flawed (because they were inspired by men). If we had to do it today, we would do a much better job (and we did, when we came up with the Charter of Rights).

Was slavery a bad thing, S.J.? Apparently a lot of slaves didn't think so after they were "emancipated"!

 

[EagleSmack]

Quoting Cliffy
Were my soul trembling on the wing of eternity, were this hand freezing to death, were my voice choking with the last struggle, I would still, with the last gasp of that voice implore you to remember this truth: God has given America to be free. - Patrick Henry.

God has given America to the white Christians to be free to enslave and imprison the red man. Nice guy!

Did God say this or did Patrick Henry?

Was Patrick Henry talking about taking the land from the Native Americans or cutting ties with Britain?

The Native Americans took part in the institution of slavery and owned many African-Americans. Was that ok?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Was slavery a bad thing, S.J.? Apparently a lot of slaves didn't think so after they were "emancipated"!

No doubt some slaves did feel that way, and that was an argument used by anti-abolitionists. They claimed that even if slavery is abolished, most slaves were so happy in their state of slavery that they would voluntarily opt for slavery.

Same as many conservatives made the argument that women were too dumb, too stupid to figure out how to vote intelligently, that they do not deserve the right to vote and many women agreed with that assessment.

Same as many conservatives opposed the attempt to integrate the South, they claimed Biblical justification for their position (the curse of Ham), they promoted separate but equal apartheid in the South (we all know what ‘equal’ means in this context).

Same way conservatives oppose any attempt to give gays equality today. They give Biblical justification for discrimination against gays, they claim that gays are perverts, they destroy the tradition of family, that God has sent AIDS as punishment against gays, they justify gay bashing etc.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[JLM]

I guess if a person is happy with something, S.J., it's pretty hard to argue with him. In the great scheme of things I guess it's all relative anyway. Does having more freedoms make people happier?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I guess if a person is happy with something, S.J., it's pretty hard to argue with him. In the great scheme of things I guess it's all relative anyway. Does having more freedoms make people happier?

That depends, it may make some happier, not others. But the important thing is to give them a choice, and that can only be achieved by giving them freedom.

Thus, if a black man wants to live as a slave today, if he thinks that he will be happier as a slave and finds a willing white plantation owner, nobody is stopping him from being his slave. Or suppose a woman still thinks that women do not deserve the vote, she is free not to vote for the rest of her life.

But the important thing is that people have freedom to do as they wish, they didn’t have that under slavery, or when women were prevented from voting.

Don’t confuse freedom with happiness; the two are totally different things.

 

[JLM]

That depends, it may make some happier, not others. But the important thing is to give them a choice, and that can only be achieved by giving them freedom.

Thus, if a black man wants to live as a slave today, if he thinks that he will be happier as a slave and finds a willing white plantation owner, nobody is stopping him from being his slave. Or suppose a woman still thinks that women do not deserve the vote, she is free not to vote for the rest of her life.

But the important thing is that people have freedom to do as they wish, they didn’t have that under slavery, or when women were prevented from voting.

Don’t confuse freedom with happiness; the two are totally different things.

I think you're right ...........you sure wouldn't want to deprive someone of the right to be miserable...........:lol::lol:

 

[AnnaG]

I think you're right ...........you sure wouldn't want to deprive someone of the right to be miserable...........:lol::lol:

Freedom is over-rated. I have been free. Now I am married and have two kids. The kids aren't home anymore which gave me more freedom, but I would rather have them at home again. So I "revel" in my misery at not having my kids around. :-( On the other hand, I enjoy having hubby and MIL here to satisfy my nurturing tendencies. :smile:

 

[AnnaG]

Anyway, I'd peg the USA as the good, the pretty, the bad, and the ugly all rolled into one. Same as I view Canuckville.

 

[JLM]

Freedom is over-rated. I have been free. Now I am married and have two kids. The kids aren't home anymore which gave me more freedom, but I would rather have them at home again. So I "revel" in my misery at not having my kids around. :-( On the other hand, I enjoy having hubby and MIL here to satisfy my nurturing tendencies. :smile:

You're right, I'll settle for contentment over freedom any day.

Freedom doesn't rid you of grief, worry, sadness, anger, guilt.