U.S. health care vote delayed as support wanes for Senate Republicans

TenPenny

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What the country needs to do is start with defining what should be covered. Then who should be covered. Then how it gets paid for.


It's simple in theory, but for some reason, the vested interests make it impossible to move in any direction, no matter what party or house is trying. Parlty because they don't really want to do it.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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What the country needs to do is start with defining what should be covered. Then who should be covered. Then how it gets paid for.


It's simple in theory, but for some reason, the vested interests make it impossible to move in any direction, no matter what party or house is trying. Parlty because they don't really want to do it.
No, what each state should do is start defining what should be covered. Who should be covered is easy: everybody. How it gets paid for should be interesting.

Why should the country be deciding that?

I'm quite serious. Before Obamacare, three states had statewide health care: Massachusetts, Hawaii, and Utah. Their health-care models were very different. New York had legislation in the legislature to adopt a single-payer system like Canada or the UK. Wisconsin said that, given its mix of available health care, the cheapest solution for Wisconsin was just for the government to buy health insurance policies for anybody that didn't have one.

Our Supreme Court has long said that the states are "the laboratories of democracy." If the Federal government just stays the heck out of it, the various states will try various types of health care, and it will soon become obvious which, if any, is best. It also largely depends on individual circumstances. The portion of the population that spends a significant amount of time in more than one state is minuscule, and interstate arrangements can easily be made.
 

TenPenny

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No, what each state should do is start defining what should be covered. Who should be covered is easy: everybody. How it gets paid for should be interesting.

Why should the country be deciding that?

I'm quite serious. Before Obamacare, three states had statewide health care: Massachusetts, Hawaii, and Utah. Their health-care models were very different. New York had legislation in the legislature to adopt a single-payer system like Canada or the UK. Wisconsin said that, given its mix of available health care, the cheapest solution for Wisconsin was just for the government to buy health insurance policies for anybody that didn't have one.

Our Supreme Court has long said that the states are "the laboratories of democracy." If the Federal government just stays the heck out of it, the various states will try various types of health care, and it will soon become obvious which, if any, is best. It also largely depends on individual circumstances. The portion of the population that spends a significant amount of time in more than one state is minuscule, and interstate arrangements can easily be made.


Indeed, you are correct, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it's a state level responsibility. So devolve the whole thing to the states, and leave it be.


After all, the GOP are big on the Constitution, so stick with it.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Indeed, you are correct, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it's a state level responsibility. So devolve the whole thing to the states, and leave it be.


After all, the GOP are big on the Constitution, so stick with it.
Thank you very much for that response. I credit you with being somebody who actually listens, instead of just reeling off a pre-memorized line.

I've got no problem with Canada's solution to health care for Canada (not that it'd be any of my business anyhow). But, as I'm sure you're aware, the the countries of the EU use several different models, from single-payer to mandatory-insurance schemes. Australia uses the public option. Japan includes medical price controls. There are LOTS of good ideas out there.

Further, half of our population is already on government-provided or government-paid health care. How do we fold all those programs into the new health-care system?

Lastly, like Canada, we have huge variations in terrain, transportation, and population density. In Arizona, for example, the big health-care issue isn't so much the care, it's getting people to the care. Just as a health-care solution based on Toronto circumstances isn't likely to work out well for Yukon, a solution based on Philadelphia probably won't work real well in Wyoming.

I see the U.S. in some ways like the EU. Very large population, semi-sovereign states, and a huge variation in population, size, density, and wealth among the states. So, even setting the Constitutional issues aside, why not let the states experiment? Might generate some good ideas which could be emulated. And as I said, everybody would still be covered, with the small fraction of the population that spends considerable time in more than one state as a minor issue.

And best of all, you'd automatically get cost savings. Having the states collect the money through taxes and spend it is necessarily more cost-effective (in terms of lower administrative overhead) than having the Federal government collect the taxes, and then dole the money out to the states.

In addition to the Constitutional issues, it is simply good management to resolve problems at the lowest level possible. It's more effective and generally more efficient.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Indeed, you are correct, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it's a state level responsibility. So devolve the whole thing to the states, and leave it be.


After all, the GOP are big on the Constitution, so stick with it.

Well said!
 

Corduroy

Senate Member
Feb 9, 2011
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He is trying to help you see reality.Take your blinders off.

Really? Because he's usually incoherent. You can put together a readable sentence. Could you explain to me what Danbones is trying to say?

Before Obamacare, three states had statewide health care: Massachusetts, Hawaii, and Utah.

The history of public health care is similar in Canada. Before the federal government got involved, two provinces already had a public health care system. The federal government encouraged other provinces to do the same by paying for some of the costs and over time legislation increasing regulated those systems across the country. But health care remains a provincial jurisdiction and each provinces has a different system.

Our Supreme Court has long said that the states are "the laboratories of democracy."

"Guinea pigs of democracy" didn't focus group well?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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"Guinea pigs of democracy" didn't focus group well?
You dislike Justice Louis Brandeis? I'm surprised.

A more complete rendering is "a state may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."

I have a hard time finding fault with that.
 

EagleSmack

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It's a fact Gopher... sorry ole chum!

More are dying with Obamacare. The info is all there.

Don't worry though... you're an old timer with medicare, you paid in, you're all set.
 

TenPenny

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The history of public health care is similar in Canada. Before the federal government got involved, two provinces already had a public health care system. The federal government encouraged other provinces to do the same by paying for some of the costs and over time legislation increasing regulated those systems across the country. But health care remains a provincial jurisdiction and each provinces has a different system.



That's very true; in the beginning, each Province decided whether to charge premiums or just pay for it all through sales taxes. Also, in order to be covered under your Provincial plan, you have to be a resident of your Province for a certain length of time (I think it's usually 3 to 6 months).


If you see a doctor outside your province, the doctor has to submit billing to your home province, and get reimbursed. Also, they get reimbursed at the rate set by your province of residence. That is one reason that in NB, for example, doctors used to hate treating patients from Quebec; the rates were lower, and it also seemed that the Quebec bureaucrats went out of their way to be obstructive and late in paying the claims.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Paul Ryan is a serious asshole.

Paul Ryan: “22 Million Americans Choose To Be Poor, So It’s Their Own Problem If They Can’t Afford To Be Healthy”




Kilmeade then asked Ryan to comment on the fact that the Republican health care platform is going to make health insurance plans significantly less affordable by decreasing subsidies for poorer Americans. Ryan replied by ranting about how being poor is “a choice.” “This is something we’ve been over on more than once occasion,” Ryan said. “I know why you’re asking me this; you want me to feel guilty for depriving 22 million people of health insurance, right? Well, I’m sorry Brian, but it’s not working. And the reason why it’s not working is, you’re using the wrong logic here. You’re using the wrong logic alongside millions of other Americans, because all of you feel that those who get up every day and work hard for some reason owe something to those who just lie around doing nothing. That’s not right.”


Paul Ryan:
 

pgs

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Nov 29, 2008
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Paul Ryan is a serious asshole.

Paul Ryan: “22 Million Americans Choose To Be Poor, So It’s Their Own Problem If They Can’t Afford To Be Healthy”




Kilmeade then asked Ryan to comment on the fact that the Republican health care platform is going to make health insurance plans significantly less affordable by decreasing subsidies for poorer Americans. Ryan replied by ranting about how being poor is “a choice.” “This is something we’ve been over on more than once occasion,” Ryan said. “I know why you’re asking me this; you want me to feel guilty for depriving 22 million people of health insurance, right? Well, I’m sorry Brian, but it’s not working. And the reason why it’s not working is, you’re using the wrong logic here. You’re using the wrong logic alongside millions of other Americans, because all of you feel that those who get up every day and work hard for some reason owe something to those who just lie around doing nothing. That’s not right.”


Paul Ryan:
Yes Cliffy we know he hates the fact that you get up every morning and let someone else go to work for you .