Too much Money on Native Issues?

[#juan]

Ya theres an unbiased opinion.

Racial slurs and such.

But as long as you got back up eh Juan?

edited to add, If you can not see what he is trying to do, Juan. You are either blinded by your bias, revelling in his support or the fact that you think this plebisite is getting under my skin(not even in the ballpark), or you are a(not posted as it would get me banned)!

I have made it very clear what my views are, and as far as I know, a difference of opinion is completely allowed on these forums. I have made no racial slurs no matter how hard you try to find them.

 

[CDNBear]

I know you'll go off on a tirade, but no, it is built on the blood of OUR people. Its bricks and mortars were built by Catholic people, of all ethnic backgrounds.We are Canadian too you know. My ancestors have been in this country since the late 1600's.

It is not YOUR land, it is our land, be we White, Indian, Black, Oriental, it is all of ours for all of our use. We have as much right to it as do your people. That is one of the issues we will never agree on, for we too have built this country, in fact, we have done far more to build it than your people have.(And I am talking about the British and the French, not the Church)

I can trace my roots on this continent back to the Straights of Magellan and when my ancestors crossed it and laid claim to the wilderness here. As well as back to France, Holland and England, I know the years the sur names came over. I know where they settled, I know when my sur name entered the Native peoples. Great we all have history, you should educate yourself on others history before casting comments that are bigoted and prejudiced, based solely on conjecture and missinformation.

It is our (as in all of the peoples of Canada), but it was our land. Period. Europeans came conquered and settled here, great I got over that years ago, not that there was much to get over. But just because Europeans came and took, does not negate the original onwership, especially due to the manner in which ownership changed hands.

The Reservation act and subsiquent reservation system was not our choice, it was a choice made bu the Government of Canada at that time.

Parcels of land were set aside and given to us, unfortunetly, they forgot to tell us that we didn't own the mineral rights under the land, so several reservations were moved so mining companies could exploit the mineral deposits below our feet. with little to no consent from us.

But seeing as we were conquered, we gave in. We did so because we were assured that we would be looked after, especially since the Government was restricting our traditional movements, with regards to hunting and fishing, as well as summer and wintering grounds, certain needs would have to be supplied by the Government.

For moving ourselves off land the Governemnt wanted or need, we were given certian freedoms. You can consider this rent on the land you now occupy, if you feel the cost is to high, then you are most welcome to move to you ancestral lands at any time.

In case you have missed it and I believe you have, I am an activist in the Native community, but not like the ones you see on TV or at the UN. I beleieve my people need to clean up their act, rid ourselves of corruption, sloth, waste and the stereotypical tripe that infests minds like yours.

So your barking up the wrong tree if you think I want more money. I also pay more then my fair share of taxes. Likely alot more then you.

Your comment "in fact, we have done far more to build it then your people have" has been said before. (As long as we're at this point Juan, you to can pay attention here) The crying heard after shots were taken at Belinda Stronach, were quite intersting. One of the comments in her defence was "If that was said in the work place in the private sector, someone would be fired". Yep, that is true. Guess what, your comment sanctus, got a young man fired in 20 minute when he said that to a young Native girl I work with in the past. That comment smaks of prejudicial bigotry and you should know it, if you don't, get help.

Frankly, this is nonsense. You claim ownership of a country you did not create. Canada was a creation of British and French people. It may be terribly politically incorrect to say so, but I personally do not think the natives have any more right to a country my ancestors are from than any other ethnic group. It is truly time we stop pretending otherwise. Yes, your people were here first, but so what? If I buy a house and move into the neighbourhood, does that mean I have no say in what happens on my property because the other people on the street have lived there longer than me?

No I never claimed ownership to the Country built on lands swindled out from under my ancestors, I said the land was ours. If you buy a house, you own the property under your ass, if you buy a house from a con artist and it already belongs to someone else, who owns the house?

If you say so. You perhaps rely too much on the media as your prime source of information. The Church did not own slaves. Your people alone did not build the Churches. There is such a element of whining amongst the native population, it is astonishing. How long must we hear sad tales of things that happened a long time ago. I didn't do these things. I am not responsible for events that happened long before I was even born.

http://huizen.daxis.nl/~henkt/christianity-and-slavery.html

And it is also, in my opinion, time we move on from the past. there is no remedy for it now. We have to deal with real issues, not spend countless amount of effort atoning for crimes done long, long ago. One of the problems with the Indian situation is their perceived seperation from the general population, as you've noted. We can't have dialogue because we do seem them as "other". That is why I think we should, as a nation, take steps to integrate the native population into the general Canadian population. They should have no more, or less, rights or priviledges than any other ethnic group in this country.

We are not Indians, we are many Nations under the Assembly of First Nations, know as Aboriginals. Indians are for all intents and purposes, from India.

So you would break treaties and FORCE people off the land granted to them for their reliiquishing land for the use of your ancestors to build your country? Why not, it's not like breaking treaies is hard for the people that wrote them.

Those rights were afforded us, for giving up our claim to the whole of the land, so now you want to reneg on more treaties? Not a problem, then we'll cancel the transaction and we'll take our land back.

And having done all these terrible things to you and your people, still your people have no problem demanding monies from the government. And that is the whole problem with the existing situation. That is, an entire group of people who on the one hand forever complain about these things and yet have the other hand out-stretched to receive government hand-outs.

Those hand outs as you call them are not all a waste of money. Since the reserves were transferred in to control of the provinces, the Feds and the Provinces have been fingure pointing at each other as infrastructure and utilities became obsolete and degraded with age. A lot of the monies we are currently asking for, are for those very refitting projects. Other monies at center stage at this point are for that education you mentioned. Could all the money handed to the Native peoples be better managed, oh you bet your sweet bippy buddy. See my point about my activism within my community.

The flaming is in your own mind. Answer the question..or the point if you will..in other words, if we as white people did all these terrible things, why do you still wish our money to sustain you? Why aren't the native peoples' turning their reserves into the paradise the revisionists want us to believe the barbaric native cultures were when Europeans first came to these shores?

We don't wish your money to sustain us, it is owed us in rent. It is part of a treaty system that your ancestors laid out to pay for our submission. Deal with it. The barbarice characature that was nicely painted by the Black Robes(Catholic Jesuits), was demeaning as are your words, you are using in an attempt to flame bait me.

Further, do you think we can refrain from the constant mentioning of the Church, it is besides the point to the issue at hand.

No. You brought up our tax exempt status, and the fact that you think we should not have it. That is as hypocritical as it gets. Since the Catholic Church enjoys tax exemptions it does not require and in many peoples eye is illegal due to its holdings and stock portfolio. The only reason it has not been challenged is because the Church is quite powerful and is well adapt at waging smear campains in order to maintain the status quo.

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=7818

I have made it very clear what my views are, and as far as I know, a difference of opinion is completely allowed on these forums. I have made no racial slurs no matter how hard you try to find them.

Umm Juan, I was referring to sancus' comments not yours, but your response is telling.

FYI, Juan. As much as my tone may be agressive or blunt or bellicose. I enjoy this site as apposed to many others, because of the drastically differred views here. If I want to get pats on the back for eveything I say, I'll go to some of the other Forums on the net. But then where is the fun in that. People have PM'd me to clarify things or ask me to ellaborate, and I have always answered sincerely and honestly. I have walked away from arguements more heated then anything in this thread, with a brand new respect and admiration for people whos views I would never hold, but understood and accepted and feel the better for it.

I as have many other Natives in the history of this country, have taken an oath to pretty much uphold your right to have your views as we entered Military Service. I still live by that oath. Whatever your bias might have you think otherwise.

 

[CDNBear]

Sanctus and Bear

I think this dialogue has reached an impass in that neither of you were / are responsible for the early mistakes made by the R.C. Church in what they perceived to be "settlement" of the First Nations people as they say them living in what would be to them - unnatural and extremely basic conditions.

Bear - wrongs were done in ignorance and perhaps even by some to "civilize" what was perceived to be savage peoples - which in turn emasculated their will to conduct their own rights of responsibilities and
be captives of a new form of societal living in which they were cast as secondary members.

I see roads to self-actualization being made by First Nations tribes in my own region of the world and these people are finally in the new century coming into self-governance, economic stability, education for their young, a higher standard of living than they have ever enjoyed, and in some cases, bargaining with local governments on their own terms.

Keeping any group of people down will make slaves of them - and while the Church is guilty of many things perpetuated against the First Nations peoples, the people themselves must stop the finger pointing and blame game and get going on their own, finding their own way on their own terms, instead of letting their lives slide by in useless anger.

I hope one day the First Nations people as a whole will stop waiting for the golden SUV, and get back on their feet.
They are a proud people - having conquered the bitter land and made a life for themselves long before they had to
deal with "modern life". Walking tall and independently wasn't enough for the "new" invaders. A first mistake - the results of which are still going on.

We can't continue to blame what is in the here and now on the ignorance of earlier times. It is a waste of good minds and hearts and neither of you can settle such a huge discrepancy and alienation through crude attempts by others.....long gone.... by perpetuating it between yourselves.

Life is moving way too fast to waste it in useless argument.... lighten your load and try to find some compatible way to coexist - because neither of you are going to hold up progress and understanding.
Both of you have "righteous" debate, but neither seem to want to find anything to build a bridge just yet.
Maybe some day. I know if you were face to face things would be different.

I didn't want to lump you in and respond to you with the other two. You deserve more respect then that.

Your words as usual are clear and calming, and are the reason for my re-replying to sanctus.

Your points are valid, but to not address a misconception, based solely on half truths and predudiced conjecture, is quite frankly not going to happen.

As i have stated many times, and in a few threads. I am well aware of the sloth and waste in my community. I have battled it for years. I have the bumps on my head and the headache to prove I have been bouncing my head off the wall.

These to think they're critical? Ha, it is to laugh. I have taken on Leaders, Cheifs and Presidents. Putting my status in jeapordy, possibly ruining my childrens chances of a fulfilling invovlement in the whole of the community.

I challenge my people at every chance to beat the odds, break the cycle, erase the stereotypes and become who they always were inside. If these two really feel that they want to change the current woes. then lets see action, not just words.

The proposals put forth in this thread are not the answer, a word that failed to enlighten Bush, backlash, is a word these two need to read up on. Do I agree with what may happen, no. But it is highly likely. I have never supported agressive or violent counter actions or protest, although, I found it hard not to justify Oka.

But that violence will be the least of our worries if the policies these two try to tout as "excellent ideas" were ever enacted. The welfare system would likely bankrupt, and the culture shock would rip Natives in two. No matter how slow you tried to integrate them. Without a form of indoctrination that nearly wipes out their original identity, assimalation, they would not have the where with all to function in a confining societal situation as they wish to see. The effects would be catostrophic. I have the criminal record to prove it.

 

[Curiosity]

Bear

I know less than 1% of the real history of the agreements between the government and the First Nations peoples. I wonder if you have time you could start a thread at least to clear up some of the incorrect
assumptions many people have - I have always thought the government gave First Nations people money to stay on their restricted land and if they moved away to cohabit with other residents - they would be
giving up their rightful payments. I have read about the Residential Schools - and how children were educated according to what the government dictated.

There are at least a half dozen issues I have read or heard talked about but have never known anyone to ask questions of - and perhaps you could clear up some of the misconceptions people have - not all of us were taught in Canadian schools which would logically have some of the history to learn - if I did study it I promptly forgot much of what I learned in school believe me - school was never a priority when I was young...and I have a lot of catching up to do.... rather than be ignorant I wonder if you have time to post an occasional Myth Buster for us....maybe set us on the road to learning...how your world is - standing in two nations.... belonging to both.

I know much of your history is passed down verbally but perhaps there are some books or essays around we could look at to research ourselves...ones you feel are reasonably accurate.

 

[Ariadne]

cortex

We have done the worst thing possible to the indigenous people in Canada. By making them wards of the state, we robbed them of their initiative. The luckiest were those who got away from the system and made it on their own. I don't hate the natives. I hate throwing hard earned dollars away for no good reason.

I rented out a couple of rooms in my house many years ago and this one guy came to have a look at the place. He was first nations but it was called native indian back then. He expected that I give him a special break; different from the regular people from everywhere else in the world, because he was first nations. He was downright rude when I told him that he was no different from anyone else in my eyes. I could only conclude that first nation people are used to being given special privileges because of their nationality. They have indeed been robbed of their initiative. This 19 year old told me how it should be and when I refused, he felt that he was hard done by. That is definitely the wrong message to be teaching the First Nation children.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I have challenged my people, I have chastised, rocked the boat, shock the tree, but as long as the Feds are willing to give away money for nothing, my words garner only hate and resentment. As well as death threats. lol.

Well... I don't think I'd LOL about death threats. I've heard too many tales from the aboriginal people I've worked with about corruption in the administration of reserves, family compacts, and threats against people who try to rock the boat, to take this stuff lightly. I wouldn't agree with the OP that we as a nation are spending too much money on native issues, that's not the problem at all. The money we are spending is not properly administered and audited, abuse is widespread, corruption is rampant, so neither the Canadian nation nor the First Nations are getting full value for the expenditures.

Good for you Bear, you keep on rocking that boat and shaking that tree. The solution can't come from governments or the larger society (i.e. people like me). They can certainly expedite it, but they can't start it or lead it with any credibility. It can come only from a revival within the aboriginal community itself, and that'll need clear-headed thoughtful people like you. Non-aboriginal people like myself will certainly be supportive and encouraging, but really, you have to do it yourselves or it'll never work.

Go for it.

 

[Curiosity]

Dexter/ Bear

Yup yup - it has to come from the First Nations people themselves - they must decide if their fate is another's hands or in their own.

It's not an easy journey but living under "another's rules" can't be either. Secret is: You have to make your own rules of living "within" but independent as well, and if it is a contest of wills, beat the others at their own game by becoming successful and gaining value of self esteem by doing it your own way and achieving goals.

Doesn't have to be loud protest, but quiet, determined hard work and consensus of the majority willing to make a change. The most important gift to any group of people being of course, excellent education of the young - in both your own history and the history of the land within which you live - in order to survive by having the best of both.

I have seen it happen with my own eyes in California - and it was the first time I watched an oppressed group make the decision to cut the chains and walk free, proud and tall.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear

I know less than 1% of the real history of the agreements between the government and the First Nations peoples. I wonder if you have time you could start a thread at least to clear up some of the incorrect
assumptions many people have - I have always thought the government gave First Nations people money to stay on their restricted land and if they moved away to cohabit with other residents - they would be
giving up their rightful payments. I have read about the Residential Schools - and how children were educated according to what the government dictated.

There are at least a half dozen issues I have read or heard talked about but have never known anyone to ask questions of - and perhaps you could clear up some of the misconceptions people have - not all of us were taught in Canadian schools which would logically have some of the history to learn - if I did study it I promptly forgot much of what I learned in school believe me - school was never a priority when I was young...and I have a lot of catching up to do.... rather than be ignorant I wonder if you have time to post an occasional Myth Buster for us....maybe set us on the road to learning...how your world is - standing in two nations.... belonging to both.

I know much of your history is passed down verbally but perhaps there are some books or essays around we could look at to research ourselves...ones you feel are reasonably accurate.

I am going to try to start a few threads today that will help build some bridges, I have a few sites in mind as well as the ability to answer any questions anyone may have.

If you have anything in mind, do not hesitate to ask WC. I'm more then willing to share, one of the "old ways" and tradtions of our peoples.

I rented out a couple of rooms in my house many years ago and this one guy came to have a look at the place. He was first nations but it was called native indian back then. He expected that I give him a special break; different from the regular people from everywhere else in the world, because he was first nations. He was downright rude when I told him that he was no different from anyone else in my eyes. I could only conclude that first nation people are used to being given special privileges because of their nationality. They have indeed been robbed of their initiative. This 19 year old told me how it should be and when I refused, he felt that he was hard done by. That is definitely the wrong message to be teaching the First Nation children.

Are you basing your opinion of an entire group of people on the ridiculous acts of one ass?

I am Native, I own my own business. Do you think I hire Natives? Hell yes. Do you think I've fired some Natives? Hell yes. My Grand Father ran a logging camp, do you think he hired Natives? You bet. Did he fire them? You better believe it.

I learnd from him, personal accountablity. There are no freebees in life and you must work for your fair share. Sadly not evryone gets that education, no matter what the colour of their skin.

I have a couple Native guys on staff, as well as my lead hand, a wonderful Native woman, that is the best welder I have ever seen, she's better then me. lol.

I have fired many, I have helped Natives find jobs, and been let down when they dissappear after getting their first paycheck. But some have made real progress in their atempts to find fulfilling lives outside the poverty afforded them by birth(only in some areas), while others have squandered my assistance.

Well... I don't think I'd LOL about death threats. I've heard too many tales from the aboriginal people I've worked with about corruption in the administration of reserves, family compacts, and threats against people who try to rock the boat, to take this stuff lightly. I wouldn't agree with the OP that we as a nation are spending too much money on native issues, that's not the problem at all. The money we are spending is not properly administered and audited, abuse is widespread, corruption is rampant, so neither the Canadian nation nor the First Nations are getting full value for the expenditures.

Good for you Bear, you keep on rocking that boat and shaking that tree. The solution can't come from governments or the larger society (i.e. people like me). They can certainly expedite it, but they can't start it or lead it with any credibility. It can come only from a revival within the aboriginal community itself, and that'll need clear-headed thoughtful people like you. Non-aboriginal people like myself will certainly be supportive and encouraging, but really, you have to do it yourselves or it'll never work.

Go for it.

Dex, I'm not sure how to say this with sounding like "my Dad can beat up your Dad'ish", but the threats, most of which are just idle, do not scare me. I have a huge family, our name is reveared and feared in some cases. My brothers, cousins and friends, are more then willing to throw down the gloves as it were, if anyone were to breachthe sanctity of my castle. Not to mention, I'm not exactly a small fry, not that I can stop a speeding bullet, but I feel that the threats are empty at best and it's not like I haven't been shot at in the past, elsewhere on the globe. So it is a bit of a laugh. No one has been as stupid to threaten my family, that would be an entirely different issue, all together.

Thanx for the compliments too. You are not exactly lacking in the deep thoughts column yourself sir.

 

[Curiosity]

Bear

Thanks - anything you can share is creating knowledge from a person who lives it. I have been wracking my brain (half of it is still left) trying to remember what I have learned about First Nations people and there is of course the schools, how segregation seemed the word of the day by the government; Louis Riel; and two incidents which are ugly: One in Kenora, Ont. where a group of people were sitting on the curb outside a beer parlor waiting for someone to give them a drink (word from my family on this - but I assumed they had no reason to make up a story - I was just a kid)... and another incident in Vancouver where we were sitting on a beach in West Vancouver and one bozo said...."let's go up to Squamish and watch them fight - it's late enough on a Saturday afternoon they should be going at it by now..."

Couple of other things but that is the kind of thing we hear and learn and then the "government pays them to behave" kind of stuff....

Nobody can function in this world as a non person....and if generations are brought up to believe they are - there is no value system for them to strive for - that all people are worthwhile and have a duty - yes a duty to live up to their full potential or waste their lives being invisible....silencing the screaming pain by drinking/drugging and fighting.

 

[Northboy]

In my opinion,

This is a serious subject and the ultimate resolution may go along way to define Canada's character as a nation. At this point, railing about money is counterproductive and the solutions lie in REAL trust and understanding.

Silver bullet solutions, I'll leave that to the pundits.

I don't want to be known as "Walking Eagle".

 

[#juan]

Dexter Sinister wrote:

I wouldn't agree with the OP that we as a nation are spending too much money on native issues, that's not the problem at all. The money we are spending is not properly administered and audited, abuse is widespread, corruption is rampant, so neither the Canadian nation nor the First Nations are getting full value for the expenditures.

It is my feeling that nine billion dollars plus is far too much to spend on about 850,000 people, particularly when the natives are the ones administering that money. B.C. has just given several tribes on Vacouver Island (2,000 people)24,000 hectares of land and $320million dollars. That is approximately $160,000.00 per person. Can we be so generous with all of the 850,000 natives? That would total about $136 billion The treaties are supposed to be a one shot deal but I'm afraid I am a pessimist. The chiefs, and the friends of the chiefs will end up with the bulk of the money and the rest will be left out in the cold yet again. Who will take care of them? Best guess....You and I, just like we have for the last 80 years or so

 

[CDNBear]

Dexter Sinister wrote:

It is my feeling that nine billion dollars plus is far too much to spend on about 850,000 people, particularly when the natives are the ones administering that money. B.C. has just given several tribes on Vacouver Island (2,000 people)24,000 hectares of land and $320million dollars. That is approximately $160,000.00 per person. Can we be so generous with all of the 850,000 natives? That would total about $136 billion The treaties are supposed to be a one shot deal but I'm afraid I am a pessimist. The chiefs, and the friends of the chiefs will end up with the bulk of the money and the rest will be left out in the cold yet again. Who will take care of them? Best guess....You and I, just like we have for the last 80 years or so

And I as well Juan, lets not forget the there are Natives that live off Rez that pay taxes just like you and Dex.

I also agree with you on the issue of who is going to administer these funds. There is already a sent of corruption, so why is the government does not attach a stipulation that gives an out side auditting of these funds and how they are used.

If this is all you are basing your opinion on, I would agree with you 100%. But on the whole, there is still some issue as to how the government has abused the monies and land left in their trust by treaty of other First Nations.

 

[Winnipegger]

Aboriginals are proving that they are not capable of self-government.

The funds spent should have been used to help economic development on reserves; attract industry so Aboriginals can stay (if they are happy there) and earn a living and enjoy their own version of the good life!

Simply writing cheques is not going to help! Then when they get audited, they cry racism! The more they use the term, the less effective it is!

 

[selfactivated]

I know Im coming in on this a bit late. But here's my two cents (no pun intended). Money does not solve the problem of people. All people need a hand up NOT a hand out. Noone wanted to live on the res. at the time we were forced not asked. As a people we have lost our language, our culture, or spirituality. As a people we are not the proud nation we used to be. Our children choose to either deny their heritage or pout about it. As a nation we are dying. I say "we" because in the states we are following the same walk as our Canadian brethren. No money will not help, yes we should pay taxes as everyother citizen does, BUT if you want to help? Give us back our pride and allow us to make our own mistakes, sink or swim. Allow us our futures in our own hands.

My two cents

 

[Winnipegger]

Yes, but it is our billions being misdirected, thus wasted!

 

[selfactivated]

yes Im NOT canadian BUT the states have simular problems AND its the us/them attitude that gets nowhere in any problem. Also no experience is a waste.......just a learning tool. So learn.

 

[Northboy]

I know Im coming in on this a bit late. But here's my two cents (no pun intended). Money does not solve the problem of people. All people need a hand up NOT a hand out. Noone wanted to live on the res. at the time we were forced not asked. As a people we have lost our language, our culture, or spirituality. As a people we are not the proud nation we used to be. Our children choose to either deny their heritage or pout about it. As a nation we are dying. I say "we" because in the states we are following the same walk as our Canadian brethren. No money will not help, yes we should pay taxes as everyother citizen does, BUT if you want to help? Give us back our pride and allow us to make our own mistakes, sink or swim. Allow us our futures in our own hands.

My two cents

This 2 cents is worth has an great value.....

G.

 

[Northboy]

yes Im NOT canadian BUT the states have simular problems AND its the us/them attitude that gets nowhere in any problem. Also no experience is a waste.......just a learning tool. So learn.

http://reinventthevillage.blogspot.com

I hope this isn't considered spamming or anything, I just wanted to share...

 

[layzingin]

It sounds like a lot, but most of that is administrative cost. We have chiefs, administrators, negotiators and lawyers coming out of our ears that make all the money with no visible results to show. Putting the funding directly to the native person whom it should go to would certainly save costs. This would be in lieu of land lease and mineral rights. And by the way, we do pay taxes, we are only exempt from taxes on reserve. Most work and do their shopping off reserve where we pay taxes like every one else (does that make you happy).

We own land that the government owns (Isn't that an oxymoron?)

 

[Machjo]

Are we spending too much money on First Nation Issues?

Where Your Tax Dollar Goes - 2004-05 - report without charts

With over $6 billion in transfers for First Nations and Aboriginal peoples (bringing total federal spending in this area to some $9 billion, not including anything the provinces might kick in annually. There are approximately 733,626 first nations people in Canada. This makes the amount per first nations man, woman, and child, about $12,267.00, or $49,068.00 tax free, for a family of four. I know the native people don't get this money but it is being spent/wasted, squandered, on their behalf.

Does anyone else think this kind of spending on one group of people is extreme?

How does that compare to the average Canadian with regards to roads, education, sanitation, police, healthcare, military, etc. etc. etc.?