Too much Money on Native Issues?

[CDNBear]

No.

What is happening, is we are throwing taxpayer's hard earned money into a black hole, and that black hole will only grow. That little community is now 600 people. In a few years it will be 6000 and it won't be any better off. We will just be paying more money. We should shut the place down and help the people move to where they can have a life.

We have "old ways" as well, and our "old ways" tell us we have to earn our keep, and support our families. It is no longer possible to make a living by hunting and trapping and it hasn't been possible for at least forty years.

Ummm, we're not rabbits you know. But that comment revials a lot.

I thought you didn't, you just threw out something that you heard, without any form of knowledge on the subject of the "Old ways". I am well aware of the "White Man's" ways, rape, pilidge, exploit, herd, lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, poison, etc. But those are not the ways of all Non Natives. You seem to be unable to make the same distinction about Natives.

I beg to differ. While it has been endangered and infringed upon, by the looney left. It has been a viable income for many communities, despite the efforts of the big fur industries and the looney's. I help my Grand Father tend his trap line in the 70's and early 80's. First with a team of dogs, then in 76 he bought his first snowmobile with the proceeds of his efforts, not government subsidies.

In 81, my Grand Father, and a group of Natives approached the Feds with a plan to start a fur farm, after watching the stocks dwindle in their area, due to the pressures of not being able to migrate as freely as they once to did, to protect agianst such things from happening. They asked the Feds for very little seed money to start the farm. They were willing to use there own land and supply the animals, they need but a small ammount of funds to aquire the permits and licenses. The Feds with pressure from both the Loons and the big fur industry siad, can you guess? Of course they said no. But if the Band came with their collective hands out for make work projects that served no great purpose, the money flowed like water. Odd is it not?

The government has been complicit in this from the get go. With the support of large business and the Non Natives alike.

It seems humourous that the move mention should cost so much. Do you have any idea how fast and cheap Native communities have been moved in the past, before they fought and won the mineral rights under their reservations. It was staggeringly expedient and affordable. Often subsidized by big mining concerns.

Keep that in mind as you cast stones and accusations.

 

[sanctus]

No.
We have "old ways" as well, and our "old ways" tell us we have to earn our keep, and support our families. It is no longer possible to make a living by hunting and trapping and it hasn't been possible for at least forty years.

Exactly. It's obscene that one small segment of society receives such huge amounts of money. It is now time to integrate them into our society. Close down the Reserves and put focus and attention on education and social programs that will encourage success for these people. Special status should not be accorded any one group of people. We complain when Quebec wants it, yet do not say a word when it is our own Native population.

 

[Hotshot]

From what i can see---they see virtually none of that cash
l
Why is it that native canadians arent even allowed to live in homes unless they are made of plywood?

Perhaps you should ask the chiefs.

 

[CDNBear]

Exactly. It's obscene that one small segment of society receives such huge amounts of money. It is now time to integrate them into our society. Close down the Reserves and put focus and attention on education and social programs that will encourage success for these people. Special status should not be accorded any one group of people. We complain when Quebec wants it, yet do not say a word when it is our own Native population.

What a wonderfully thought out piece of crap. If you enjoy the distruction of indigenous peoples, stay in Africa, your kind are doing wonders there to spread the cost of AIDS and keep the death toll high.

Leave the North American Aboriginal out of your sights, the church has done enough to our people.

Speaking of status, perhaps we could revisit the tax exempt status of one of the largest investment and hence income portfolios on the globe, that of the Catholic Church. While we're casting stones, he who is without sin should go first. Good luck with that.

 

[CDNBear]

Perhaps you should ask the chiefs.

Can't argue with that.

 

[sanctus]

What a wonderfully thought out piece of crap. If you enjoy the distruction of indigenous peoples, stay in Africa, your kind are doing wonders there to spread the cost of AIDS and keep the death toll high.

Leave the North American Aboriginal out of your sights, the church has done enough to our people.

Speaking of status, perhaps we could revisit the tax exempt status of one of the largest investment and hence income portfolios on the globe, that of the Catholic Church. While we're casting stones, he who is without sin should go first. Good luck with that.

I'm not talking about the Church, I'm talking about Canada. No ethnic group should have special status in this country, for any reason. We should work towards improving the status of all the peoples who live here. Obviously the reservation system is not working. Perhaps a better solution would be to bring the Native population into the mainstream of our culture instead of isolating them.

 

[sanctus]

What a wonderfully thought out piece of crap. If you enjoy the distruction of indigenous peoples, stay in Africa, your kind are doing wonders there to spread the cost of AIDS and keep the death toll high.

Leave the North .

My "kind"??? White man, Canadian??? What "kind" is that?? The Church??? Are you actually blaming the Catholic Church for the spread of AIDS in Africa???

 

[CDNBear]

I'm not talking about the Church, I'm talking about Canada. No ethnic group should have special status in this country, for any reason. We should work towards improving the status of all the peoples who live here. Obviously the reservation system is not working. Perhaps a better solution would be to bring the Native population into the mainstream of our culture instead of isolating them.

That includes the montorously wealthy Catholic Church, that still enjoys a "special status". Your point is nothing more then hypocratic nonsence. Go petition your "One True Church" to drop its tax exemption, then you can come back and blather out that crap. Until then anything you say about what Natives enjoy in the way of special status, is pure hypocracy.

How about paying those that suffered under the Catholic churches thumb, instead of laying that one squarely on the Feds? Huh sanctus, how does that sound? Sounds like a good start to me. I doubt it will to you though, even though your "One True Church" was one of the worst offenders. Got anything to say about that?

How about pressuring the Feds to stomp the corrupt cheifs and leaders.

It is not the reservation system that is the probelm, it is the corruption and blindness to the corruption. It's the continuous fingure point and blame shifting between the Provinces and the Feds, the agitators like the MWS, non Natives prosting protests, the continued stereo typical nonsense that I see in this thread, the outdated opinion people have of Natives, the lack of knowledge and understanding people have of the history of the Native peoples traditions and culture, the lack of willingness to even try and learn but a fraction of it.

I can guarantee, that many of you armchair editorialists, some of which I respect, have but a minor bit of knowledge of all that makes up the historic Native tradition, story or culture. Perhaps if you wish to make a real contribution, instead of just spew forth more negativity, try learning some, not all, but something about them, they are after all a huge part of the history of Canada.

 

[CDNBear]

My "kind"??? White man, Canadian??? What "kind" is that?? The Church??? Are you actually blaming the Catholic Church for the spread of AIDS in Africa???

YEP, you bet!
http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/panorama/transcripts/sexandtheholycity.txt

http://www.actupny.org/YELL/stopchurch99.html

http://www.republicoft.com/2006/11/26/aids-africa-abstinence-only/

http://feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=8091

You want more proof!

 

[Zzarchov]

YEP, you bet!
http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/panorama/transcripts/sexandtheholycity.txt

http://www.actupny.org/YELL/stopchurch99.html

http://www.republicoft.com/2006/11/26/aids-africa-abstinence-only/

http://feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=8091

You want more proof!

Im not a catholic, im not religious..but that is the most insanely stupid crap about who's fault aids is I've ever seen.

You honestly think its the catholic church stopping people from using condoms? Do you think africans are patently retarded?

They willfilly ignore the parts about not having sex outside of marriage with your one spouse for life, DIRECTLY ignoring what the pope tells him...

But oh, WHILE they are disobeying everything the pope stands for, then they get "all confused" and think..while im sinning several times..I wouldn't want to sin one more time and not use a condom..so I'll totally not use a condom and make the pope happy?

they aren't stupid.

they don't use condoms for two reasons.

1.) The don't feel as good. tough, they don't.

2.) If your wife catches you with a condom she'll cut your willy off.


This irks me when people blame the catholic church for saying don't use condoms. If you were actually not using condoms because of the catholic church..you also wouldn't need them, and AIDS would be gone within a few years.

AFRICANS ARE NOT RETARDED.

 

[CDNBear]

Im not a catholic, im not religious..but that is the most insanely stupid crap about who's fault aids is I've ever seen.

You honestly think its the catholic church stopping people from using condoms? Do you think africans are patently retarded?

They willfilly ignore the parts about not having sex outside of marriage with your one spouse for life, DIRECTLY ignoring what the pope tells him...

But oh, WHILE they are disobeying everything the pope stands for, then they get "all confused" and think..while im sinning several times..I wouldn't want to sin one more time and not use a condom..so I'll totally not use a condom and make the pope happy?

they aren't stupid.

they don't use condoms for two reasons.

1.) The don't feel as good. tough, they don't.

2.) If your wife catches you with a condom she'll cut your willy off.


This irks me when people blame the catholic church for saying don't use condoms. If you were actually not using condoms because of the catholic church..you also wouldn't need them, and AIDS would be gone within a few years.

AFRICANS ARE NOT RETARDED.

No they are not, but neither are suburban Catholic teenaged girls that have sex out side of marriage, but are informed as to the benefits of condoms.

Unlike the Africans that are continuously bombarded with propoganda.

Have you read anything I posted, or are you just piping off.

Whether you like it or not, it is the honest to Gods truth. (pun intented)

I contend it is the Church that feels Africans are retarded, or they would try that propoganda over here. They won't because they know they would be jumped all over.

 

[#juan]

In Africa there are approximately 752,000,000 people Catholics in Africa number about ten million. Are all the AIDS sufferers Catholic? We are talking about a fraction of one percent of the population of Africa. Better re-do your numbers.

 

[CDNBear]

In Africa there are approximately 752,000,000 people Catholics in Africa number about ten million. Are all the AIDS sufferers Catholic? We are talking about a fraction of one percent of the population of Africa. Better re-do your numbers.

Better read a link or something, gawd forbid you have an idea about what you post instead of just assume. I haven't put out numbers.

btw, I started a thread for this conversation so as not to side track this one.

 

[cortex]

Absolutely true, and a complete shame. A lot of that stems from the lack of ownership amunst the psycy of tribal ideology. But I beleive it is more like a complete disregard for the value of anything, based solely on the fact that handouts come easy, even easier when the screaming starts.



Because we look at ourselves through rose coloured glasses.


For someone I rarely agree with, you seem to be on the ball here.

But throwing money at the problem is an easy solution. The harder one looks like racism, and will be tagged as such by those that do not want to get up from the mire and do something. They will undoubtedly be supported by the professional activists and the corrupt leadership that will see their cash cow heading for slaughter.


Another trusim. The buracratic waste is enormous. The funds eaten up in retrofitting offices is inexcusable and a heavey cost. But so are the endless make work projects continuously supported by our leadership, only because of their cut of the proceeds.


Yes, but the real solution is a huge horse pill, that will not readily be seen as a good bit of medicine.


As usual, you are right on the mark. As an activist that neither agrees with either side, I feel helpless and alone. If not for the support our small groups has recieved from some of our perspective constituants, we would be completely lost.


By making known the corruption, exposing the frauds on both sides and addressing the issue in a hardline manner, that would set the abusers and slothes back on their heels in an attack on the system, remenissent of the US's "shock and awe". Completely wiping out the current system of "zero" checks and balances and enforcing a rule of fiscal law that would ensure only those desperately needy got the bulk of the systems assistance. Forensic audits that made a visit to the proctologist seem like a birthday party, drug testing those that wished to collect a stipend, opening the books and financial records of elected officials before, during and after elections, tracking the contracts awarded-to ensure fair bidding practices and ensuring the right people are doing the jobs-not the Chiefs cousin-who sets up a business front Friday-to open business with the Band Monday-and has clue one what the job entails.

Some of these practices will be met with staunch dissaproval, by both the Feds and the Chiefs. There are many reasons why, most of them corrupt. period.

You know you are right--i know you are right---but I know also that this culture---the culture of Canada when it comes to face this issue--CANT DO IT!----there is something absolutely frustrated here ----WHAT is it about canadian society that is so defficient that it cannot solve these basic problems---I think it they will NEVER be solved--the points you have made are beyond the comprehension of a critical mass of people that would be required to solve them---sorry to be a pessimist---but what you have said personally triggers a sore point ---and Im sorry to say it ---i feel that its utterly hopeless to do anything here--maybe anywhere---somewhere along the way I have lost faith in this society-----no use telling me to go elsewhere--you are right its just as messed up elsewhere.

merry christmass

 

[CDNBear]

You know you are right--i know you are right---but I know also that this culture---the culture of Canada when it comes to face this issue--CANT DO IT!----there is something absolutely frustrated here ----WHAT is it about canadian society that is so defficient that it cannot solve these basic problems---I think it they will NEVER be solved--the points you have made are beyond the comprehension of a critical mass of people that would be required to solve them---sorry to be a pessimist---but what you have said personally triggers a sore point ---and Im sorry to say it ---i feel that its utterly hopeless to do anything here--maybe anywhere---somewhere along the way I have lost faith in this society-----no use telling me to go elsewhere--you are right its just as messed up elsewhere.

merry christmass

Cortex, it frustrates me daily, it hurts my very soul.

To counter your hopeless feeling though, some may have said that you and I would never see eye to eye on any issue, yet allas here we are in agreement. There is always hope my friend.

 

[Sassylassie]

Bear, what do you think would help get the Natives back on track? I've attended Native training sessions and one thing the Elders repeatedly stated was that corruption from within isn't being addressed by the Indian Affairs Minister at the Federal level and the RCMP are willfully blind to this corruption. I just don't understand why the Feds let Native Band members take control of these monies with no safe guards in place. Nova Scotia has bands where there screaming for Police Investigations and the Media is all over it but the RCMP just hum "I can't hear you". Why such apathy towards these criminal elements, the money is meant for the Natives not the "Chosen Families" year after year.

Bye the way your idea for Mobile Training Units is one of the most sound ideas I've heard in years, many Natives in rural areas don't want to leave their community so this idea would really go along way in educating the populace.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear, what do you think would help get the Natives back on track? I've attended Native training sessions and one thing the Elders repeatedly stated was that corruption from within isn't being addressed by the Indian Affairs Minister at the Federal level and the RCMP are willfully blind to this corruption. I just don't understand why the Feds let Native Band members take control of these monies with no safe guards in place. Nova Scotia has bands where there screaming for Police Investigations and the Media is all over it but the RCMP just hum "I can't hear you". Why such apathy towards these criminal elements, the money is meant for the Natives not the "Chosen Families" year after year.

Bye the way your idea for Mobile Training Units is one of the most sound ideas I've heard in years, many Natives in rural areas don't want to leave their community so this idea would really go along way in educating the populace.

The only thing I or any of my collegues have been able to come up with, is that both the Feds and the policing agencies, are not willing to get into a battle that may have charges of racism trown at them. The race card is always easily tossed out in th efirst volley.

Other then that, there is alway the status quo scenerio. If it's all messed up with the Feds at the helm, what would happen if the it were cleaned up and the natives wanted to take control of themselves. Better the devil you know, I guess.

Thanx btw, but as usual, it is a viable self supporting idea, so it is still in limbo. Go figure!

 

[sanctus]

That includes the montorously wealthy Catholic Church, that still enjoys a "special status". Your point is nothing more then hypocratic nonsence. Go petition your "One True Church" to drop its tax exemption, then you can come back and blather out that crap. Until then anything you say about what Natives enjoy in the way of special status, is pure hypocracy.

How about anada.

The Catholic Church is not an ethnic group, nor the only religious body in this country to be exempted from SOME of the taxes. Not all, surely you don't believe that! The Catholic Church, or any other religious body, has a special status allowing our tax dollars as citizens to be funneled into Church coffers.ALL tax-exemption stems from the charitable contributions which the government permits. And this includes, bingos, the United Way, Food Banks, etc.etc.etc. We are not alone in having tax exempt status, not by far.

 

[sanctus]

negativity, try learning some, not all, but something about them, they are after all a huge part of the history of Canada.

Now, before you go off on a tirade about the evils of the Church, I am just asking because I don't know, but can't these tribal leaders be voted out of office? Isn't that how they are put in power in the first place? Or are they hereditary posts?

 

[CDNBear]

The Catholic Church is not an ethnic group, nor the only religious body in this country to be exempted from SOME of the taxes. Not all, surely you don't believe that! The Catholic Church, or any other religious body, has a special status allowing our tax dollars as citizens to be funneled into Church coffers.ALL tax-exemption stems from the charitable contributions which the government permits. And this includes, bingos, the United Way, Food Banks, etc.etc.etc. We are not alone in having tax exempt status, not by far.

I never said you were alone, but you are the most wealthy, are you not?

Yes those charitable contributions, those bountiful, seemingly bottomless collection plates. Where exactly does all that money go? Why is the Catholic Church so wealthy. Oh yes, those bountiful collection plates and sound investments and tax exempt status.

Before you start demanding our tax exemption be nullified, I would look deep inside the hollow ethics of your church. It is built on our land and with the blood of our ancestors in the mortar.

Your words are hypocritical at best.