Too much Money on Native Issues?

[Sassylassie]

Bear wrote: Thanx btw, but as usual, it is a viable self supporting idea, so it is still in limbo. Go figure!

I remember having a conversation with a medicine man and he told me that his son and daughter left the reserve to go to College and he said most of the people turned on them and mocked them for "Going into the white man's world" when they completed their education (teacher, plumber) they came back and used their skills to help the Natives and he said they were considered white for getting an education. Sadly he stated that in order change and improve the Natives life style education was key but when someone left to get educated they were shunned by their fellow natives. This is why I think your idea could be a smashing success.:wave:

 

[CDNBear]

Now, before you go off on a tirade about the evils of the Church, I am just asking because I don't know, but can't these tribal leaders be voted out of office? Isn't that how they are put in power in the first place? Or are they hereditary posts?

Not if they buy elections, as is done. So is rigging. All of which is hard to prove without being coersed by goons, or the help of the Feds and or police.

 

[Sassylassie]

Even when the corruption is exposed the police wait until a statued in law has passed and then give Press Releases say it's to late to charge said offender. Damn how I would love for someone to do a documentry on the corruption in Government and Native Affairs including the band chiefs and band members. It's long over due to be exposed to the public and maybe then something will change. Because if the Native situation continues down it's current path the children of tomorrow will be poorer than today's children.

 

[sanctus]

Not if they buy elections, as is done. So is rigging. All of which is hard to prove without being coersed by goons, or the help of the Feds and or police.

Let me understand this, so a chief is elected. Does he have a council or some sort of body that is a version of Parliament..or is his word the final word? In other words, if I lived on a Reserve, are there checks and balances for me, or is the chief the absolute last word on everything?

 

[sanctus]

tax exemption be nullified, I would look deep inside the hollow ethics of your church. It is built on our land and with the blood of our ancestors in the mortar.

Your words are hypocritical at best.

I know you'll go off on a tirade, but no, it is built on the blood of OUR people. Its bricks and mortars were built by Catholic people, of all ethnic backgrounds.We are Canadian too you know. My ancestors have been in this country since the late 1600's.

It is not YOUR land, it is our land, be we White, Indian, Black, Oriental, it is all of ours for all of our use. We have as much right to it as do your people. That is one of the issues we will never agree on, for we too have built this country, in fact, we have done far more to build it than your people have.(And I am talking about the British and the French, not the Church)

 

[cortex]

Cortex, it frustrates me daily, it hurts my very soul.

To counter your hopeless feeling though, some may have said that you and I would never see eye to eye on any issue, yet allas here we are in agreement. There is always hope my friend.

You see--what you just said about it ---that it hurts your very soul---THAT is what i saw in Inuvik---and i found it quite frankly overwhelming. i remember meeting a young Dene indian woman---who had her eye gouged out by her exboyfreind---who had several intractable medical conditions---who was trying to raise her two sons ---on nothing---She told me that the thing that broke her heart the most was in her small town the summer before three of her --friends i guess---teens went out one day one summer day totally drunk--the boat tipped over and they all drowned--she told me that they all wanted to die thats was their way of commiting suicide.She feared that her boys might do something like that one day.The previous winter another man --in his twenties drove out in the middle of a minus 40 winter day on his snowmobile untill the gas ran out and he was stranded ---and of course he died miles away from home--that was his way of killing himself. I also noted that just about everthing in Inuvik cost a fortune---due to the cost of transportation of course---example--a
" Mackensie burger"-was 15 bucks --three times its value---but strangely enough alcohol--cost--exactly the same as what youd pay down south. Coincidentally alcoholism ia major problem up there. Every friday someone from the nearby ---but isolated-- town of red river would drive up to inuvik and load up ther pickup with enough boooze--for the whole town ---drive back--the whole town would then binge on this stuff for a few days--more than occasionally there would be casualties---alcoholic comas---violence --accidents--morbidity --mortality etc etc etc.

You see---it is a part of canada we arent used to seeing because its shut out of the public consciousness. the US ghettos--are visible--part of the american awareness- in canada---it seems to me there is a denial about just how pathetic things are for many native people and how ineptly the government is handing this crisis----

you see if teenage whites---had the suicide rate of native canadians--which i believe is amoung the highest IN THE WORLD---it would be declared a national medical emergency---but---cause its someone other tham the smiths and jones who have inherited this problem--its not quite an emergency---blame the victim

one more random thought---i have noted that there is reasonable native canadian representation in the canadian military---and that there is a certain pride i sense in this ---Now this i dont get---you would fight and die for the fricking nation that is doing this to you---come on!

 

[Sassylassie]

It's not a nation doing this to the Natives it's the Federal Government and corrupt Native Leaders, regardless of the party that's in power. The question I ask is: Why have they ignored this issue for so long? Because society doesn't care, it's apparent that a dialog of open discussion can't take place when the Natives are refered to as "Those People".

 

[CDNBear]

Let me understand this, so a chief is elected. Does he have a council or some sort of body that is a version of Parliament..or is his word the final word? In other words, if I lived on a Reserve, are there checks and balances for me, or is the chief the absolute last word on everything?

No it is not, but the corruption is far reaching and not always as visible as one might wish it to be.

I know you'll go off on a tirade, but no, it is built on the blood of OUR people. Its bricks and mortars were built by Catholic people, of all ethnic backgrounds.We are Canadian too you know. My ancestors have been in this country since the late 1600's.

Do I really have to supply the links that will embarras you? Do you know that many of the cathedrals and churches in North America, were built by SLAVES, both red and brown???

It is not YOUR land, it is our land, be we White, Indian, Black, Oriental, it is all of ours for all of our use. We have as much right to it as do your people. That is one of the issues we will never agree on, for we too have built this country, in fact, we have done far more to build it than your people have.(And I am talking about the British and the French, not the Church)

I use the term our land to drive home a point. It is in fact our land though, occupied by non natives. Something of which most of us have come to terms with.

Thank you for re-affirming my belief in your racial prejudice. That statement alone is one of the most inflamatory comments made about us and is the most commonly slurred bigotry we have to confront. But lets examine what YOU have done with our land, that we didn't, shall we.

Poisoned the rivers
Hunted animals to near extinction
Polluted the ground
Polluted the skies
Dug up our ancestors
Poisoned our people
European scalping
Poverty
etc etc etc

Until the Europeans came we had

Relative peace
Ample hunting and fishing
Systems of Government
Laws
Unbroken treaties amungst the Nations
Freedom
No alcoholism
No drug addiction
No pollution
Very little disease
No famine
Plenty of good water the drink
Plenty of fresh air
Trees as far as the eye could see
etc etc etc

If you have some time on your hands, read this. It was written by us heathens the church just had to re-educate in to good Christian slaves...

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/iroqcon.htm

I believe the one true Church is in all man. But if you would like a secular example of a true religion...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish.htm

 

[CDNBear]

You see--what you just said about it ---that it hurts your very soul---THAT is what i saw in Inuvik---and i found it quite frankly overwhelming. i remember meeting a young Dene indian woman---who had her eye gouged out by her exboyfreind---who had several intractable medical conditions---who was trying to raise her two sons ---on nothing---She told me that the thing that broke her heart the most was in her small town the summer before three of her --friends i guess---teens went out one day one summer day totally drunk--the boat tipped over and they all drowned--she told me that they all wanted to die thats was their way of commiting suicide.She feared that her boys might do something like that one day.The previous winter another man --in his twenties drove out in the middle of a minus 40 winter day on his snowmobile untill the gas ran out and he was stranded ---and of course he died miles away from home--that was his way of killing himself. I also noted that just about everthing in Inuvik cost a fortune---due to the cost of transportation of course---example--a
" Mackensie burger"-was 15 bucks --three times its value---but strangely enough alcohol--cost--exactly the same as what youd pay down south. Coincidentally alcoholism ia major problem up there. Every friday someone from the nearby ---but isolated-- town of red river would drive up to inuvik and load up ther pickup with enough boooze--for the whole town ---drive back--the whole town would then binge on this stuff for a few days--more than occasionally there would be casualties---alcoholic comas---violence --accidents--morbidity --mortality etc etc etc.

You see---it is a part of canada we arent used to seeing because its shut out of the public consciousness. the US ghettos--are visible--part of the american awareness- in canada---it seems to me there is a denial about just how pathetic things are for many native people and how ineptly the government is handing this crisis----

you see if teenage whites---had the suicide rate of native canadians--which i believe is amoung the highest IN THE WORLD---it would be declared a national medical emergency---but---cause its someone other tham the smiths and jones who have inherited this problem--its not quite an emergency---blame the victim

one more random thought---i have noted that there is reasonable native canadian representation in the canadian military---and that there is a certain pride i sense in this ---Now this i dont get---you would fight and die for the fricking nation that is doing this to you---come on!

Cortex, for someone I was willing to write off, you speak the truth, clear and sane from your heart. I see now that your posts on other issues where not attacks, looking for attention, but rather heart felt frustration with what you see as a wrong or injustice. Keep usingthe words of your heart, they are easier to read and understand.

I offer my apologies to you.

We may not always agree, but I will always understand you now brother.

Be well, have faith, I see hope in the future.

 

[sanctus]

I use the term our land to drive home a point. It is in fact our land though, occupied by non natives. Something of which most of us have come to terms with.

Thank you for re-affirming my belief in your racial prejudice. That statement alone is one of the most inflamatory comments made about us and is the most commonly slurred bigotry we have to confront. But lets examine what YOU have done with our land, that we didn't, shall we.

htm

Frankly, this is nonsense. You claim ownership of a country you did not create. Canada was a creation of British and French people. It may be terribly politically incorrect to say so, but I personally do not think the natives have any more right to a country my ancestors are from than any other ethnic group. It is truly time we stop pretending otherwise. Yes, your people were here first, but so what? If I buy a house and move into the neighbourhood, does that mean I have no say in what happens on my property because the other people on the street have lived there longer than me?

 

[sanctus]

Do I really have to supply the links that will embarras you? Do you know that many of the cathedrals and churches in North America, were built by SLAVES, both red and brown???
.htm

If you say so. You perhaps rely too much on the media as your prime source of information. The Church did not own slaves. Your people alone did not build the Churches. There is such a element of whining amongst the native population, it is astonishing. How long must we hear sad tales of things that happened a long time ago. I didn't do these things. I am not responsible for events that happened long before I was even born.

 

[sanctus]

It's not a nation doing this to the Natives it's the Federal Government and corrupt Native Leaders, regardless of the party that's in power. The question I ask is: Why have they ignored this issue for so long? Because society doesn't care, it's apparent that a dialog of open discussion can't take place when the Natives are refered to as "Those People".

And it is also, in my opinion, time we move on from the past. there is no remedy for it now. We have to deal with real issues, not spend countless amount of effort atoning for crimes done long, long ago. One of the problems with the Indian situation is their perceived seperation from the general population, as you've noted. We can't have dialogue because we do seem them as "other". That is why I think we should, as a nation, take steps to integrate the native population into the general Canadian population. They should have no more, or less, rights or priviledges than any other ethnic group in this country.

 

[sanctus]

. But lets examine what YOU have done with our land, that we didn't, shall we.

Poisoned the rivers
Hunted animals to near extinction
Polluted the ground
Polluted the skies
Dug up our ancestors
Poisoned our people
European scalping
Poverty
etc etc etc

And having done all these terrible things to you and your people, still your people have no problem demanding monies from the government. And that is the whole problem with the existing situation. That is, an entire group of people who on the one hand forever complain about these things and yet have the other hand out-stretched to receive government hand-outs.

 

[CDNBear]

And having done all these terrible things to you and your people, still your people have no problem demanding monies from the government. And that is the whole problem with the existing situation. That is, an entire group of people who on the one hand forever complain about these things and yet have the other hand out-stretched to receive government hand-outs.

Gee you just discribed the Catholic Church.

Seeing as you are only flaming me now, in an atempt to get me back or make a point. It won't work, btw. But it sure does expose your racism and bigotry. Those are great qualities for a Catholic Priest. Way ta go skippy!

 

[sanctus]

Gee you just discribed the Catholic Church.

Seeing as you are only flaming me now, in an atempt to get me back or make a point. It won't work, btw. But it sure does expose your racism and bigotry. Those are great qualities for a Catholic Priest. Way ta go skippy!

The flaming is in your own mind. Answer the question..or the point if you will..in other words, if we as white people did all these terrible things, why do you still wish our money to sustain you? Why aren't the native peoples' turning their reserves into the paradise the revisionists want us to believe the barbaric native cultures were when Europeans first came to these shores?

 

[sanctus]

Gee you just discribed the Catholic Church.
!

Further, do you think we can refrain from the constant mentioning of the Church, it is besides the point to the issue at hand.

 

[CDNBear]

The flaming is in your own mind. Answer the question..or the point if you will..in other words, if we as white people did all these terrible things, why do you still wish our money to sustain you? Why aren't the native peoples' turning their reserves into the paradise the revisionists want us to believe the barbaric native cultures were when Europeans first came to these shores?

Oh all of a sudden I must answer your question? Where ever did you get such a thought. Perhaps I could take a note from spanctus's book on debate and just cry and say I don't want to discuss it.

And yet again more racist slurs, how becoming of a man of the clothe. Is thsi where I cry like you? Or should i report your post sunctapuss?

Further, do you think we can refrain from the constant mentioning of the Church, it is besides the point to the issue at hand.

You brought up removing the Natives tax exempt status, the Church is not a charity case, why does it need tax exempt status, as one of the GLOBES strongest holding companies?

I'll tell you why, because it is as crooked as a dogs hind leg, and covered in as many fleas.

 

[#juan]

Gee you just discribed the Catholic Church.

Seeing as you are only flaming me now, in an atempt to get me back or make a point. It won't work, btw. But it sure does expose your racism and bigotry. Those are great qualities for a Catholic Priest. Way ta go skippy!

Nobody flamed you Bear. Sanctus has been trying to open a dialogue and you return with nonsense every time.

 

[CDNBear]

Nobody flamed you Bear. Sanctus has been trying to open a dialogue and you return with nonsense every time.

Ya theres an unbiased opinion.

Racial slurs and such.

But as long as you got back up eh Juan?

edited to add, If you can not see what he is trying to do, Juan. You are either blinded by your bias, revelling in his support or the fact that you think this plebisite is getting under my skin(not even in the ballpark), or you are a(not posted as it would get me banned)!

 

[Curiosity]

Sanctus and Bear

I think this dialogue has reached an impass in that neither of you were / are responsible for the early mistakes made by the R.C. Church in what they perceived to be "settlement" of the First Nations people as they say them living in what would be to them - unnatural and extremely basic conditions.

Bear - wrongs were done in ignorance and perhaps even by some to "civilize" what was perceived to be savage peoples - which in turn emasculated their will to conduct their own rights of responsibilities and
be captives of a new form of societal living in which they were cast as secondary members.

I see roads to self-actualization being made by First Nations tribes in my own region of the world and these people are finally in the new century coming into self-governance, economic stability, education for their young, a higher standard of living than they have ever enjoyed, and in some cases, bargaining with local governments on their own terms.

Keeping any group of people down will make slaves of them - and while the Church is guilty of many things perpetuated against the First Nations peoples, the people themselves must stop the finger pointing and blame game and get going on their own, finding their own way on their own terms, instead of letting their lives slide by in useless anger.

I hope one day the First Nations people as a whole will stop waiting for the golden SUV, and get back on their feet.
They are a proud people - having conquered the bitter land and made a life for themselves long before they had to
deal with "modern life". Walking tall and independently wasn't enough for the "new" invaders. A first mistake - the results of which are still going on.

We can't continue to blame what is in the here and now on the ignorance of earlier times. It is a waste of good minds and hearts and neither of you can settle such a huge discrepancy and alienation through crude attempts by others.....long gone.... by perpetuating it between yourselves.

Life is moving way too fast to waste it in useless argument.... lighten your load and try to find some compatible way to coexist - because neither of you are going to hold up progress and understanding.
Both of you have "righteous" debate, but neither seem to want to find anything to build a bridge just yet.
Maybe some day. I know if you were face to face things would be different.