Time to cut wages
- Thread starter Liberalman
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Depending on your circumstances it is not always possible to start a company or business. For those who have or were lucky enough to be able to I applaud tyhem and envy them. Every day I look for that opportunity myself but you know as well as me that you not only need the right idea but also the right contacts and business financing.
God how I wish I could own my own business to work 16 hrs days to replace my mindless 8 to 10 hrs job at the blink of an eye.
Bill Vanderzalm- "We'll give them shovels" (When he was first a cabinet minister and asked what he would do with people he was going to take off welfare)
Well, if the business is not able to run itself with a union, it has no place existing.
this world isn't a charity Tyr, a business who cannot surivive by its own merits and needs special treatment should not exist.
If the employer doesn't like a union, he could not inspire his employees to form one. If the management doesn't like their poor performance, they shouldn't be poor managers.
I say this as someone who is not unionized, and has employees.
Stopping a union from forming isn't hard, the same pro-business attitude that forms unions also keeps them at bay.
People don't fork over union-dues unless you make it worth their while. Don't do that and choose those who supply you with labour carefully.
Im just glad we are still by and large a free market and communist die hards like you don't make the rules.
Quoting Machjo
Quote: darkbeaver What will we educate for? Why would someone require a headstart in life? Isn't that a premature baby? I'm suggesting that since we don't know the truth about the systems we live in we cannot possibly expect incrementally improved efficencys with respect to time and effort to yeild any better outcomes then those already reached with the masses if there isn't a consensus reached about what the purpose of that education is. If it's only to enhance the production of consuming wageslaves I believe we are wasteing our time. Working on a farm or in the forest provided many good educations. Apprentiships with masters has always been the best way, untill we are willing and able to provide that to the student we will have no progress. Nothing breaks the spirit of children like too much school, back and forth, emulateing mummy and daddys trip to the chain gangs, everyday learning to line up and bark like a trained seal, learning to kneel and pray to the gold coins and the moral superiority of obediance to your priest and king.Times are changeing, you can kiss education , comfort and peace goodbye untill we've done with the bankers for ever. It's never been in their interest to improve the lot of the common man without first it served them the bigger piece of the pie of life and the first pick of the litters.
I sometimes have a hard time understanding you.
OK so its not just me and that I am new at this forum... :icon_smile:
Me too. Convoluted logic and contradictory statements mean reading something over and over and still not getting "the point" of it all
Quoting Tyr They all have choices and choose not to make them. They can quit. they can start their own business, they can say no. Obviously those that stay, have very little aptitude for anything else.
Tyr, we may agree on many topics but I think you do not see the "other side " to this.. I have been working Non-union for 30 years now and have been asked to do many of those things. when I have said NO I have been Laid off. I do not have the capital to start my own business otherwise I would. And yes I have a lot of Aptitude so you cannot blame it on that..
A typical example where running a business (I'll educate you) has it's shortcomings.
Times are tough and the "corporation" decides that to cut back on costs, it will lay 10% of the workforce off on March 31 and another 10% on June 1st.
They get rid of the 10% "deadwood" that all business' "carry" through economic good times. They now have to decide on an additional 10%. The problem is usually decided for them.
If a Corporation is being run properly it should never have Dead Wood..
The best and brightest 10% up and leave for greener pastures and a more stable environment.
If the Best and Brightest leave its because the Corporation is not treating its employees properly..
They are rid of the deadwood (a plus) and have lost their leaders (a minus). What they have left is the plodders that are the 2-30 yr people who aspire to nothing else. It typically takes a company 2-3 yrs before it recovers from employee apathy and lose.
Your making a perfect case for companies that should have Unions. These are typically places that I have avoided because the Employee turn around is high and employee satisfaction is low.. As ZZ has pointed out Physical abuse is not the only abuse employers put you thru as there is Mental stress that is much more a health issue then Physical one I will gladly take any day.
Depending on your circumstances it is not always possible to start a company or business. For those who have or were lucky enough to be able to I applaud tyhem and envy them. Every day I look for that opportunity myself but you know as well as me that you not only need the right idea but also the right contacts and business financing. Tyr, we may agree on many topics but I think you do not see the "other side " to this.. I have been working Non-union for 30 years now and have been asked to do many of those things. when I have said NO I have been Laid off. I do not have the capital to start my own business otherwise I would. And yes I have a lot of Aptitude so you cannot blame it on that..
A typical example where running a business (I'll educate you) has it's shortcomings.
Times are tough and the "corporation" decides that to cut back on costs, it will lay 10% of the workforce off on March 31 and another 10% on June 1st.
They get rid of the 10% "deadwood" that all business' "carry" through economic good times. They now have to decide on an additional 10%. The problem is usually decided for them.
If a Corporation is being run properly it should never have Dead Wood..
The best and brightest 10% up and leave for greener pastures and a more stable environment.
If the Best and Brightest leave its because the Corporation is not treating its employees properly..
They are rid of the deadwood (a plus) and have lost their leaders (a minus). What they have left is the plodders that are the 2-30 yr people who aspire to nothing else. It typically takes a company 2-3 yrs before it recovers from employee apathy and lose.
Your making a perfect case for companies that should have Unions. These are typically places that I have avoided because the Employee turn around is high and employee satisfaction is low.. As ZZ has pointed out Physical abuse is not the only abuse employers put you thru as there is Mental stress that is much more a health issue then Physical one I will gladly take any day.
I do not have the capital to start my own business otherwise I would.
It takes a 15% comittment to the total loan and a business plan. What's that work out to $2,000?
If a Corporation is being run properly it should never have Dead Wood..
Then we'd have 20% unemployment. "Deadwood" is a fact of life in any business
Well, if the business is not able to run itself with a union, it has no place existing.
As there was no qualifying follow to this ludicrous statement, I can't even begin to understand what you're talking about. That just doesn't make ANY sense!!
If the management doesn't like their poor performance, they shouldn't be poor managers
See above re: dumb statement
Im just glad we are still by and large a free market and communist die hards like you don't make the rules
Dumb statement # 3. Do you understand the difference between socialism and capitalism. I'm a firm believer in a free market, hence my stance is anti-union
Research. Do more research and actually read the posts
The secret to staying in business is not how much you pay your workers but how much value you get back in return. Funny thing is that the minimum wage worker at the grocery store is treated as a cost to the system - soon to be eliminated by the self-checkouts (I hate those things) but the Minimum wage student at McDonalds is trained to upsell (Fries with that?). McD's is doing OK and Grocery stores are bleeding red ink - Seems they are missing out on something and it is not paying workers minimum wage.
P.S. - A Cashier at the local grocery store probably works in a more punishing environment than any health care worker - prison guard or auto assembly line.
The only good thing is that they are not given a full eight hour shift so it takes them a lot longer to develop carpal tunnel - tennis elbow and back issues - If they were in an autoplant they would have ergonomically designed chairs - A full conveyor to scan products through without lifting them and a method developed to scan large and heavy items from the customers cart.
P.S. - A Cashier at the local grocery store probably works in a more punishing environment than any health care worker - prison guard or auto assembly line.
The only good thing is that they are not given a full eight hour shift so it takes them a lot longer to develop carpal tunnel - tennis elbow and back issues - If they were in an autoplant they would have ergonomically designed chairs - A full conveyor to scan products through without lifting them and a method developed to scan large and heavy items from the customers cart.
mit,
As you know - I am a cashier. By choice I now work only 4 days a week rather than 5. My shifts now and before are a full 8 hours. I start today at 9:30 and I work until 6:00 PM. I will have two paid coffee breaks of exactly 15 min. and one half hour un-paid lunch break. Two of my co-workers have the egonomic seats but it took years for them to get them. I don't intend to be there long enough for the fight. I have already developed back problems and you are right about it not being the wages that are the problem. It's miserable managers. I asked for a better mat to stand on and was denied it. Our tills are crap. The store is only 5 yrs. old. Next month they are installing 6 self serve check-outs. They aren't even there yet and the customers are complaining about them. One of the most popular areas of the store is the personal care (called that for some odd reason) as they sell make-up and then a lot of unusual items for homes or even clothes to a small extent. It is a place where people can buy really neat unusual things for a reasonable cost. Most of it is being eliminated to accomodate the 6 new tills. Staff expects there will be a lot of thef created by these tills. I agree. Just like green bag theft. People walk around the store filling their "green" bags with groceries and "empty" them at the checkout but they won't let the cashiers touch the bag. I'm thinking there is probably a nice pack of steaks sitting in the bottom of that bag but since the managers won't do anything about it - not my problem. I've been there long enough now that the liklihood of my hours changing in length or days will probably not be affected. There are about 15 people below me though that will likely be looking for a job. I guess time will tell.
Homeless people making 28 bucks an hour? - Actually - that is what it costs the government in BC according to the article below
B.C. taxpayers currently spend an average of $55,000 per year in health, corrections and social services for each of the estimated 11,750 homeless people in the province, according to a 2008 study by SFU's Centre for Applied Research in Mental Health and Addiction. That's $644 million a year to maintain homelessness.
So now - why are we promoting cutting wages?
B.C. taxpayers currently spend an average of $55,000 per year in health, corrections and social services for each of the estimated 11,750 homeless people in the province, according to a 2008 study by SFU's Centre for Applied Research in Mental Health and Addiction. That's $644 million a year to maintain homelessness.
So now - why are we promoting cutting wages?
I do, you don't.
Unions are the quintessential triump of capitalism, and the first organization crushed by communism.
You draw this magical line that people selling their time and experience are somehow different than people selling other goods or products.
And in todays world of IP dominance, that becomes even more and more absurd.
Unions are a group of suppliers forming a group to get a better price for their product (time/labour). This is no different than a pile of convenience stores forming a franchise to get better prices from Coke or Pepsi.
And when I here a business complaining about the costs of a unions I react the same way I do If I heard Coke or Pepsi complaining about all the money they lose to the group buying power of this new group of convenience stores.
If Im selling my time, and I decide to bundle it with 5 or 6 hundred other people for a better price, you can either deal with it or get out of the business.
I deal with large franchises alot in my work, I know id get alot more money if I could negotiate with each individual location rather than having to deal with one buying team at head office. Tough nuggies for me.
Thats the free market.
People who claim that unions are against the Free Market are either lying for self gain or poorly educated. Unions are the end result of the free market affecting labour supply as a scarce resource.
Alot of social programs stick because they aren't charity so much as investments, with a good return to boot.
Health care, education, fire protection all work good as state provided services because they make money in that they reduce costs by more than you put in.
Even that $28/hr homeless person, the other option is to just let them be. But people don't just curl into a ball, they cause trouble and if you are lucky, just engage in petty crime (raising costs)
If you are unlucky they form into organized bands under the sway of some charismatic leader, this nearly caused a communist revolution in the 30's in Canada.
There is always a cost, its finding the lowest one that works out best.
The problem is that those who choose to make a comfortable life by working are left to pay for those who do not. It is called punish the Good (Through taxes - regulations and restrictions) and reward the Bad ( Through Social initiatives - warm jails and an overtaxed emergency healthcare system)
The Good are expected to pay and the Bad get our sympathy and money and it is distributed by a group of highly educated and well compensated administrators- Does this seem fair?
1. We are not talking about unions, but rather wages. I guess you have trouble following the thread
Unions are a group of suppliers forming a group to get a better price for their product (time/labour).
2. That's just laughable. Unions tend to delve far more into "just price" to the detriment of the market as a whole. Retiree pensions ring a bell, which by the way will trigger the next great financial meltdown
People who claim that unions are against the Free Market are either lying for self gain or poorly educated. Unions are the end result of the free market affecting labour supply as a scarce resource
3. Uh huh. Seriously delufed statement. And how do unions react in your scenario when labour is plentiful? Do they drop their wages to reflect the market or do they keep them artificailly inflated
Go do some more research and gain an understanding of basic economics
Maybe it's better that way, those of us who can consider ourselves "good", are pretty lucky and maybe some of those who are considered "bad", would change it if they could. Maybe we shouldn't complain about having to pay and consider ourselves lucky for being "dealt a good hand". It can't be a good life wandering the streets all day with no money and no decent friends.
That's a bassackwards way to look at it if you ask me. Sure, we all resent having to pay for people who choose not to work, but would you trade places with them? Are you eager to be homeless or in jail? I'm not. I'd rather work even if it means paying more than my fair share, whatever that is.
Well, you keep bringing them up, so I guess you have a serious problem there.
Its not the unions business to worry about the effects of others. Its not a charity, corporations also don't base their profits off a "Fair price", they base it off of what brings in the most money. I've never had a company send me a bill for lower than they can get away with because its a "just price". I don't know where you get this "just price" crap from.
I said BETTER price. Its a business here, this is capitalism, deal with it pinko.
actually yes, Unions have in the past accepted wage cuts when the alternative was the business collapse. They aren't stupid, they also aren't charities.
Businesses having a hard time paying dividends to shareholders don't elect sympathy from unions, and nor should they. No other supplier of any other component gives price breaks to a company unless the failure to do so will cost them money in the long run.
Unions are no different. Stop drawing imaginary differences between labour and other supplies.
Do me a favour, the next time you post crap. Ask if that applies to other supplies besides labour. Would yuo accept that behaviour from another supplier, like a company supplying a component part,
Or a grocer supplying a restaurant.
Yeah, like another middle man or another level of bureaucracy, costs us money and GENERALLY contributes nothing to the product.