Time to cut wages

[Machjo]

That woud include literacy,

accomplish that and the rest is up to the initiative of the individual

We don't even accopmpish that. Some think literacy is nothing more than being able to read a text. To that extent, yes, most Canadians are literate. But if we include the ability to understand, and I mean truly unerstand the text and analyze it critically, then no, most Canadians are far from literate, as basic a skill as one woudl think critical analysis is.

 

[Liberalman]

Most police, fire services and ambulance services are unionized and with the war taking away lives I can see the military unionizing one-day.

Unions improve the working conditions for the employees and they get a decent wage so they can contribute to the economy.

It’s government’s job to stimulate economic growth and it is not their job to blame labour for trying to get a decent wage.

Under the tax system the more you make the more taxes you pay and labour is paying more than their fair share of taxes.

The government should bring in a flat tax system of 10% to 15% per taxpayer

The tax form would consist of one page how much you got paid and how much tax you owe.

When you get rid of tax deductions then it is easier to calculate.

When you get the poor, middle and wealthy class and business and the corporations paying the 10% to 15% taxes the government has enough money and the taxpayer has more in their pockets.

 

[Zzarchov]

There is a place for unions. People who perform hazardous work and need the protection of a union from their employers. ie

Roofers,
Commerial Fisherman
Miners,
Loggers
Construction

...and that's about it. A teacher, a gov't clerk, a nurse or a bus driver... not likely. They do not fit the criteria.

I'm sure the gov't clerk can make a case for an infected paper cut and unions no doubt make theat case

Danger isnt' just physical. You seem to be missing legal danger. A teacher, Gov't Clerk, Nurse and Bus Driver are all examples of people who without a union to protect them make perfect scapegoats for decisions they had no say in.

Like the Teacher who is forced to shunt students to have the school rate better and get the principle a nice new bonus, or the Government Clerk who is told to shred paperwork that really shouldn't, or the Bus Driver who is sent out in dangerous weather and gets in a crash because he was forced to.

You really don't know alot about the way the world works if you don't understand the nature of employee/employer relationship in a void.

 

[Zzarchov]

I'm from Ontario and now in Vancouver

It seems odd that you think the 1/3 of the workforce is unionized. It has never been over 28% in Canada and has been shrinking since 1973 to less than 10% today

No, you are woefully mistaken. Its about 1 in 3 and has been in some time with slight ups and down. It was 31% in 2003, which was down from 38% a few years before.

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers but it is painfully obvious you need to do ALOT more research into unions before discussing them. Back when I went to get my second education in business there was much discussion about Unions, Labour and Employment law and the number of people in Unions in Canada.

And to confirm, a quick google search confirms that yes, the numbers are still about 1 in 3.

Lets dig deeper though, do you deal directly with the producing factory of each individual parts, or the Union of smaller companies under a larger corporate label?

You seem to keep artificially distinguishing between Labour and other component parts. When you buy "Widgets group A" you usually buy from a company that has some legal right to be only supplier of that type of Widget, artificially increasing the price of that widget than if you made the design public domain and everyones workshop could make knock off qualities.

It's obvious you don't run or have never been responsible for a business. Your model is not even close to how it works

Wow, what a shame, and yet here I sit, running a business and doing quite well.

But hey, you obviously are the expert here. I mean what do I know, I just run a business, was educated in business and have remotely accurate numbers on union membership.

While you...

Well Im not sure what your qualifications are.

 

[Zzarchov]

Obviously you didn't read the post very closely. I was a member of a union and quit becasue of it. It did absolutely nothing for anybody except make the union hierarchy wealthy

Union wages are create a falsely inflated wage system. Auto workers, dock workers, etc... make far more than their skill set would dictate

I've been a member of a couple of unions in my time......and believe me, they are very necessary in the areas in which I worked.....for example, armoured car guards are consistently pressured and threatened to do dangerous work, as in drive cross-country in blizzards, drive 14, 15 hour shifts, work 24+ hours straight........all of which are illegal

That is a choice, not an absolute. You also had the choice of quitting. You chose your occupation

As for the class gap.. unions will (and haven''t) done anything to resolve that disparity

Now. Have you ever had to hire a unionized firm? It's an exercise in futility

The wage is not artificially inflated. If the wage was inflated, you simply wouldn't pay them.

I also find this ridiculous concept that your value is based upon the amount or rarity of your education, I can see you have never run a business, or at least not with hiring employees (successfully)

Your wage is determined by your need to the employer, and your ability to negotiate. Thats it. That is why an IT specialist with 10 years of expensive education totally over $100,000 in costs can make $11 an hour in Toronto, and a Burger Flipper can make $18.75/hr in Alberta's North.

Employer Need.

Unions don't artifically inflate anything, they form a unified front for bargaining. While an employer can get away with 1 or 2 employees less (and thus play them off each other), an employer cannot get away with 200 or 300 employees less, they have a stronger bargaining position.

If a union actually inflates the prices artificially, the business shuts down and moves. Thats that.

 

[Tyr]

We don't even accopmpish that. Some think literacy is nothing more than being able to read a text. To that extent, yes, most Canadians are literate. But if we include the ability to understand, and I mean truly unerstand the text and analyze it critically, then no, most Canadians are far from literate, as basic a skill as one woudl think critical analysis is.

I have to agree with you. Most people seem to cry out for someone to read them their rights and dictate how they act. I don't know if that can be attributed to fear or apathy.

They seem to feel that things are too complex for them to understand, so they don't bother.

As for literacy. I would hope we as a country can at the very least espect people to be literate (and logical) up to and including at least a grade 12 level and there should be national, standardized tests to determine that

 

[Tyr]

Most police, fire services and ambulance services are unionized and with the war taking away lives I can see the military unionizing one-day.

Unions improve the working conditions for the employees and they get a decent wage so they can contribute to the economy.

It’s government’s job to stimulate economic growth and it is not their job to blame labour for trying to get a decent wage.

Under the tax system the more you make the more taxes you pay and labour is paying more than their fair share of taxes.

The government should bring in a flat tax system of 10% to 15% per taxpayer

The tax form would consist of one page how much you got paid and how much tax you owe.

When you get rid of tax deductions then it is easier to calculate.

When you get the poor, middle and wealthy class and business and the corporations paying the 10% to 15% taxes the government has enough money and the taxpayer has more in their pockets.

We are not debating a "decent" wage. Everyone deserves a "living wage". What the issue is about is excessive wages in relation to a skillset. Their are occupations (auto workers, dock workers, etc.) that make grossly inflated wages because of their union economic hostage taking.

If wages were "balanced" to reflect the market and a skillset, they would in some instance drop and drop dramatically. It just so happens that most (if not all) those occupations are unionized, hence the percieved demonization of unions.

 

[JLM]

We are not debating a "decent" wage. Everyone deserves a "living wage". What the issue is about is excessive wages in relation to a skillset. Their are occupations (auto workers, dock workers, etc.) that make grossly inflated wages because of their union economic hostage taking.

If wages were "balanced" to reflect the market and a skillset, they would in some instance drop and drop dramatically. It just so happens that most (if not all) those occupations are unionized, hence the percieved demonization of unions.

I think I have a solution that's fair, first confiscate all the productivity bonuses from C.E.O.s who are non productive to the point of declaring bankruptcy and half the performance bonuses of the rest of them (it's just obscene the amount of money they are wallowing in) total it all up and divide it among the rank and file. That would kill two birds with one stone, give all the employees a livable wages and put an end to the greed once and for all. Oh yeah, one more thing, put the bastards who have bankrupted their companies in jail, preferably Leavenworth or the Shoe.

 

[Tyr]

I think I have a solution that's fair, first confiscate all the productivity bonuses from C.E.O.s who are non productive to the point of declaring bankruptcy and half the performance bonuses of the rest of them (it's just obscene the amount of money they are wallowing in) total it all up and divide it among the rank and file. That would kill two birds with one stone, give all the employees a livable wages and put an end to the greed once and for all. Oh yeah, one more thing, put the bastards who have bankrupted their companies in jail, preferably Leavenworth or the Shoe.

You're too generous JLM. I wouldn't be giving out any bonus's if the "profit" did not exceed the cost of living. Anything over that, would be a .001% bonus. As for reallocating wages to the rank and file. If they were making a decent wage, they wouldn't need a reallocation. So, give them a decent wage commiserate with their skillset.

 

[Tyr]

The wage is not artificially inflated. If the wage was inflated, you simply wouldn't pay them.

I also find this ridiculous concept that your value is based upon the amount or rarity of your education, I can see you have never run a business, or at least not with hiring employees (successfully)

Your wage is determined by your need to the employer, and your ability to negotiate. Thats it. That is why an IT specialist with 10 years of expensive education totally over $100,000 in costs can make $11 an hour in Toronto, and a Burger Flipper can make $18.75/hr in Alberta's North.

Employer Need.

Unions don't artifically inflate anything, they form a unified front for bargaining. While an employer can get away with 1 or 2 employees less (and thus play them off each other), an employer cannot get away with 200 or 300 employees less, they have a stronger bargaining position.

If a union actually inflates the prices artificially, the business shuts down and moves. Thats that.

Brilliant. Keynes and Galbraith must be in awe of your understanding of the labour situation.

The wage is not artificially inflated. If the wage was inflated, you simply wouldn't pay them.

the wage IS inflated as the unions hold the company hostage. Either meet their demands or the entire industry strikes/ Ase-in-point are the dockworkers

I also find this ridiculous concept that your value is based upon the amount or rarity of your education, I can see you have never run a business, or at least not with hiring employees (successfully)

You're taking it far too pursonal. It's not based on MY value. But "a" value. i.e. wage vs. value i.e. skillset and market conditions. Obviously you've never run a business or been required to figure out the variables

Your wage is determined by your need to the employer, and your ability to negotiate. Thats it. That is why an IT specialist with 10 years of expensive education totally over $100,000 in costs can make $11 an hour in Toronto, and a Burger Flipper can make $18.75/hr in Alberta's North.

Your knowledge is truely "underwhelming"

 

[Machjo]

I have to agree with you. Most people seem to cry out for someone to read them their rights and dictate how they act. I don't know if that can be attributed to fear or apathy.

They seem to feel that things are too complex for them to understand, so they don't bother.

As for literacy. I would hope we as a country can at the very least espect people to be literate (and logical) up to and including at least a grade 12 level and there should be national, standardized tests to determine that

As far as I'm concenred, we need to totally revamp our education system.

Do you know why we have long summer holidays? Because when universal compulsory educaiton was first introduced, kids had to help their parents on the farm.

Do you know why we have long winter breaks? Because many lived in the countryside and with all the snow couldn't make it to school, not to mention no heating in school.

March break? Religious.

Most families are now made upf of two working parent. So while the parents are working, they're wasting their time having their kids babysat. The kids are bored, unchallenged, and wasting their time. I'd say scrap the holidays, switch to a 6-day school week, and just guarantee that kids and teachers can have their religious holidays off; those could be reserved as either review days, test days, sports days or something of the sort, I'm sure schools cold work aroud religious holidays.

If we did it that way, kids could have completed their compulsory education (i.e. secondary school graduation) and have a diploma in some trade or profession by the age of 15. If we should reform our second-language acquisition policy as Italy has, we could create a fluently bilingual population to boot, all knowing one common language, thus saving money in translation and interpretation costs in the long term, which could then be redirected towards education.

This would allow kids to enter the workforce soon after their 15th birthday, thus giving them a headstart in life. Parent have to pay for babysitters anyway, so might as well pay a little more and give them a good educaiton during the holidays.

 

[Tyr]

Danger isnt' just physical. You seem to be missing legal danger. A teacher, Gov't Clerk, Nurse and Bus Driver are all examples of people who without a union to protect them make perfect scapegoats for decisions they had no say in.

Like the Teacher who is forced to shunt students to have the school rate better and get the principle a nice new bonus, or the Government Clerk who is told to shred paperwork that really shouldn't, or the Bus Driver who is sent out in dangerous weather and gets in a crash because he was forced to.

You really don't know alot about the way the world works if you don't understand the nature of employee/employer relationship in a void.

They all have choices and choose not to make them. They can quit. they can start their own business, they can say no. Obviously those that stay, have very little aptitude for anything else.

A typical example where running a business (I'll educate you) has it's shortcomings.

Times are tough and the "corporation" decides that to cut back on costs, it will lay 10% of the workforce off on March 31 and another 10% on June 1st.

They get rid of the 10% "deadwood" that all business' "carry" through economic good times. They now have to decide on an additional 10%. The problem is usually decided for them.

The best and brightest 10% up and leave for greener pastures and a more stable environment.

They are rid of the deadwood (a plus) and have lost their leaders (a minus). What they have left is the plodders that are the 2-30 yr people who aspire to nothing else. It typically takes a company 2-3 yrs before it recovers from employee apathy and lose.

 

[JLM]

There is a place for unions. People who perform hazardous work and need the protection of a union from their employers. ie

Roofers,
Commerial Fisherman
Miners,
Loggers
Construction

...and that's about it. A teacher, a gov't clerk, a nurse or a bus driver... not likely. They do not fit the criteria.

I'm sure the gov't clerk can make a case for an infected paper cut and unions no doubt make theat case

I basically agree with that.

 

[darkbeaver]

oops

 

[darkbeaver]

As far as I'm concenred, we need to totally revamp our education system.

Do you know why we have long summer holidays? Because when universal compulsory educaiton was first introduced, kids had to help their parents on the farm.

Do you know why we have long winter breaks? Because many lived in the countryside and with all the snow couldn't make it to school, not to mention no heating in school.

March break? Religious.

Most families are now made upf of two working parent. So while the parents are working, they're wasting their time having their kids babysat. The kids are bored, unchallenged, and wasting their time. I'd say scrap the holidays, switch to a 6-day school week, and just guarantee that kids and teachers can have their religious holidays off; those could be reserved as either review days, test days, sports days or something of the sort, I'm sure schools cold work aroud religious holidays.

If we did it that way, kids could have completed their compulsory education (i.e. secondary school graduation) and have a diploma in some trade or profession by the age of 15. If we should reform our second-language acquisition policy as Italy has, we could create a fluently bilingual population to boot, all knowing one common language, thus saving money in translation and interpretation costs in the long term, which could then be redirected towards education.

This would allow kids to enter the workforce soon after their 15th birthday, thus giving them a headstart in life. Parent have to pay for babysitters anyway, so might as well pay a little more and give them a good educaiton during the holidays.

What will we educate for? Why would someone require a headstart in life? Isn't that a premature baby? I'm suggesting that since we don't know the truth about the systems we live in we cannot possibly expect incrementally improved efficencys with respect to time and effort to yeild any better outcomes then those already reached with the masses if there isn't a consensus reached about what the purpose of that education is. If it's only to enhance the production of consuming wageslaves I believe we are wasteing our time. Working on a farm or in the forest provided many good educations. Apprentiships with masters has always been the best way, untill we are willing and able to provide that to the student we will have no progress. Nothing breaks the spirit of children like too much school, back and forth, emulateing mummy and daddys trip to the chain gangs, everyday learning to line up and bark like a trained seal, learning to kneel and pray to the gold coins and the moral superiority of obediance to your priest and king.Times are changeing, you can kiss education , comfort and peace goodbye untill we've done with the bankers for ever. It's never been in their interest to improve the lot of the common man without first it served them the bigger piece of the pie of life and the first pick of the litters.:lol:

 

[Tyr]

Quoting darkbeaver MBAs are acctually the dying breed there buddy, do some homework. MBAs are got by the dozen these days all nicely packed in crates. When you break one you just open the box and pull out a new one install the batteries and it will make a complete ass of itself just like the others. There is at present a glut of MBAs ready to work for next to nothing to prove how efficient they are.


​

....and your claim to fame vis-a-vis educational background?


I didn't think I'd get an answer, but that speaks volumes in of itself

 

[JLM]

You're too generous JLM. I wouldn't be giving out any bonus's if the "profit" did not exceed the cost of living. Anything over that, would be a .001% bonus. As for reallocating wages to the rank and file. If they were making a decent wage, they wouldn't need a reallocation. So, give them a decent wage commiserate with their skillset.

I'd go along with that.

 

[Machjo]

What will we educate for? Why would someone require a headstart in life? Isn't that a premature baby? I'm suggesting that since we don't know the truth about the systems we live in we cannot possibly expect incrementally improved efficencys with respect to time and effort to yeild any better outcomes then those already reached with the masses if there isn't a consensus reached about what the purpose of that education is. If it's only to enhance the production of consuming wageslaves I believe we are wasteing our time. Working on a farm or in the forest provided many good educations. Apprentiships with masters has always been the best way, untill we are willing and able to provide that to the student we will have no progress. Nothing breaks the spirit of children like too much school, back and forth, emulateing mummy and daddys trip to the chain gangs, everyday learning to line up and bark like a trained seal, learning to kneel and pray to the gold coins and the moral superiority of obediance to your priest and king.Times are changeing, you can kiss education , comfort and peace goodbye untill we've done with the bankers for ever. It's never been in their interest to improve the lot of the common man without first it served them the bigger piece of the pie of life and the first pick of the litters.:lol:

I sometimes have a hard time understanding you.

Anyway, based on what I think you wanted to say, I fully agree that we need to more clearly define the role of education, or what its objectives ought to be. Consideirng though how politically charged that can be (cf. Kulturkampf between the Pope and Von Bismark), one possible solution would be to grant parents an education voucher cashable at any school, public or private, of their choice. The financial value of the voucher would need to be high enough to ensure a quality education, and of course the government would reserve the right to establish standards and objectives and principle. Any more detailed objectives, however, ought to be dictated by each individual school.

 

[Tyr]

I sometimes have a hard time understanding you.

Anyway, based on what I think you wanted to say, I fully agree that we need to more clearly define the role of education, or what its objectives ought to be. Consideirng though how politically charged that can be (cf. Kulturkampf between the Pope and Von Bismark), one possible solution would be to grant parents an education voucher cashable at any school, public or private, of their choice. The financial value of the voucher would need to be high enough to ensure a quality education, and of course the government would reserve the right to establish standards and objectives and principle. Any more detailed objectives, however, ought to be dictated by each individual school.

That makes perfect sense

 

[Tyr]

The unions will have to drastically cut their ridiculous "perks" in order to have any hope of doing their part to save the auto industry

The 10 or so Special Paid Absence -- or SPA -- days workers get on top of normal sick leave and paid vacation days will almost assuredly be cut, the analyst said.

Many of the targeted extras don't extend to United Auto Workers in the United States. Instead, they've been built up over years of bargain negotiations to offset health-care savings GM, Ford and Chrysler receive because of Canada's publicly funded systems.

Begun last year, the U. S. union started making arrangements to handle medical costs for workers and retirees with their Voluntary Employment Benefit Associations (VEBAs), Mr. DesRosiers said.

The result works out to be around a $15-per-hour cost advantage for U. S. assembly workers, he said, making Canada the "highest-cost location anywhere in the GM, Ford and Chrysler worlds for manufacturing vehicles."
"That's not a good position to be in."

Before the VEBAs were commissioned in Detroit, average compensation plus benefits -- the total cost -- for factory labour was about US$75 an hour, whereas in Canada it is US$67 at Big Three operations, the analyst said. With the implementation of the VEBAs, labour costs are heading toward US$55.

Canadian compensation fares worse against foreign-based suppliers such as Honda and Toyota, where costs stand at about US$45.


They could implement a five yr "freeze" on current wages in order to become more competitive with foreign auto makers. That would make sense