Time to cut wages

[Colpy]

If management threatens to fire you for refusing to break the law, that shouldn't be a matter for a union, but one for the labour relations board or a lawyer.

If workers did less unionizing and more suing, I'm sure employers would start to think twice. I've always worked non-union, and I'd taken an employer on legally twice, and won twice.

There are a couple of problems with that.

Congrats on your wins, BTW......

First of all, it requires that you know the law. The guys I worked with didn't have a clue......to be even allowed to refuse dangerous work, there is a very specific procedure you must go through.......which we only discovered when I did the research.

So, you've got a bunch of macho guys with little education, they simply are not apt to jump through the hoops to even discover their own rights.......

Much less so to drag anyone to court in a suit..........that requires even more knowledge, and access to lawyers, etc.........

The only way these guys got the necessary support was through the union.

We had one guy that sued the company.....he was a certifiable nutbar.....and he lost. He tried to sue everyone, the company, the union, his co-workers........he was ostracized by the boys, and finally quit.

The other problem with this was these guys were a bunch of misfits......that loved the job (as did I) and were out on the road away from management 90% of the time.........

Oh yeah......regular pay for risking your life every day, carrying guns and millions upon millions in cash?

Between 12 and 14 dollars an hour. It took me ten years to get the top job, only 5 in NB and PEI combined, that paid 18 dollars an hour.

Every negotiation goes to the edge of strike.....they threaten to close branches, which in our case, they finally did......getting rid of myself and a couple of other "unco-operatives"..........

You don't have to be a sociopath to be management in the industry.....but it seems to help.

Please, if you ever see armoured car guys on strike picketing your bank.....complain loudly to the bank.......

 

[Machjo]

If workers don't know their rights, then there's something wrong with our education system... I was in China by the way, and it was under Chinese law! I went on-line and read up on Chinese labour law and Chinese contract law, good English translations. I typed up a professional letter and sent it off to the local labour relations board.yes, they looked at me in shock when I, a foreigner, walked in with a professionally typed account of every contract violation and law, making reference to each paragraph and section of the law violated, and witnesses. Of course I waited till I had plenty of witnesses before doing this. And that was it.

So if I could do this in a foreign country whose lwas I know zilch about... and a communist country at that so the laws, cultrue etc. are totally different, one would need to be quite the blockhead to not know how to learn about his rights in Canada, his own country of origin. Go on-line, Google it for crying out loud! It's right on some Government of Canada webpage I'm sure.

Now I've always had good employers in Canada, so never needed to learn Canadian labour law. But I can guarantee that if an employer ever croeed me here, I'd do the very same thing.

You see, the problem is not with whether or not we have unions. It boils down to education and lack of literacy. By the time a Canadian finishes high school, he should know not necessarily every law in the book, but should at least know how to find the information and proceed from there. It might be wise to know the basic laws at least. If our education stood up to par, and the average Canadian was culturally literate, unions would be redundant. Employers would fear even hinting at a worker that he should break the law, 'cause he'd know he'd have the govenrment breathing down his throat in a flash.

So it's time to complain to our ministries of education and start to teach kids to... wait for it, this might shock you.... THINK!

 

[Machjo]

Exactly my point.. You started with a Bsc...

And I would have gladly returned to school as well, not having had the chance as a child, but I got married to my now ex who went back and got her Bsc and teaching degree.. But she decided that right after graduation she would up and leave.. All those years I accumulated debt on top of what I had but we were in "love".. I guess I should have been wise and gone back to school to get my degree first hey..

If one could only predict the future..

Well at least I do have some college and other courses I have taken during my life.. I just wish I could have studied more instead of doing the 16 hr days to keep the kids fed or scrambling for a new job..

She has a degree, you don't. But guess what, your helping her get through school shows you had more integrity than she did, and I'd rather someone like you running the country if that's the case. It shows you know how to place others before yourself.

I'm sorry to read what happened, something similar happened to me, but I was still lucky enough to get an education, with help not only with the education, but get over the treachery. I helped not only her but her brothers too not just to go to college but to come to Canada. Honestly, those emotions still eat away at me.

 

[L Gilbert]

The reason unions came about in the first place is because there are employers who try to get lots of work for few wages. I know people who have worked for non-union outfits their entire lives and do quite fine.I also have seen unionized places go downhill in efficiency and product quality. Some unions are good ones which are out for members welfare. Some aren't. If a company treats workers well, there is no need for a union; Overwaitea for instance, The Hudson's Bay for instance. I was a firefighter, so my employer was gov't but gov'ts aren't the best of employers. They are engineered to keep the most dough for the top dogs so the rest of the crowd needs to fight to get stuff like healthcare and pensions.
The thing behind wages and prices is just one of those vicious circles. It's about getting more into your pocket. Wages go up, prices go up. Prices go up, wages go up. One follows the other ... ALWAYS. Taxes go up, wages and prices go up. What could make a difference is if gov't worked more efficiently and didn't need to tax the crap out of everything and everyone to keep itself grinding slowly along.

 

[JLM]

If you are working for a half decent employer and you are making money for him, you don't need a Union to get a fair wages- all you have to do is go to work for someone else who would be glad to have someone making money for them. AFter awhile they'll get the picture. Not many employers can turn their noses up at more profits.

 

[L Gilbert]

If a company treats workers well, there is no need for a union

 

[tracy]

Tyr, that's ONE CNA contract. You're proving my point that you don't understand what it's like here. You take one number you saw on a website and suddenly, you're certain the wages are too high. That contract is probably in San Francisco. If you don't consider the cost of living in the area, just quoting the wage is meaningless. I was in CNA when I worked in Long Beach, about an hour south of LA. New grads started at $26 an hour. It is livable, but not enough to buy a home or anything. The wage is definitely not indicative of the work performed, but I'd say it's undervalued only because it's impractical to pay them what they're actually worth. Someone with a Bachelor's degree working 12 hour shifts, days and nights, weekends and holidays, looking after sick people, risking exposure to illnesses and lawsuits and injuries deserves to make enough to be able to buy a small home. You could say that $39 is a ridiculously high wage but if the median price for a home is 700K, then what good is it? It would be ridiculously high in Kamloops or Peterborough. It may barely cover your rent and basic living expenses in San Francisco. With my super high wage I was just finally able to buy a one bedroom condo.

 

[L Gilbert]

......The wage is definitely not indicative of the work performed, but I'd say it's undervalued only because it's impractical to pay them what they're actually worth. Someone with a Bachelor's degree working 12 hour shifts, days and nights, weekends and holidays, looking after sick people, risking exposure to illnesses and lawsuits and injuries deserves to make enough to be able to buy a small home.

And yet some sports figure can "earn" $87 million in one year by swatting a ball around golf courses and grinning at a tv camera. People's priorities are really twisted.

You could say that $39 is a ridiculously high wage but if the median price for a home is 700K, then what good is it? It would be ridiculously high in Kamloops or Peterborough. It may barely cover your rent and basic living expenses in San Francisco. With my super high wage I was just finally able to buy a one bedroom condo.

And my ridiculously high wage as a firefighter gave me a moderate pension and 50 acres with a house that I am constantly fixing up. lol I should have gone into playing a game like golf instead of risking my skin to save someone's house or life.

 

[Liberalman]

If you are working for a half decent employer and you are making money for him, you don't need a Union to get a fair wages- all you have to do is go to work for someone else who would be glad to have someone making money for them. After awhile they'll get the picture. Not many employers can turn their noses up at more profits.

You obviously don’t understand business. Half decent employers don’t exist Business in a nutshell is pay low and sell high.

In a non union setting office politics rules.

This means that in order to get a head you need to bend over and take it from the boss metaphorically speaking.

In a non union setting hard working individuals don’t always get the raises and if they complain about it they are told to hit the road. Union shops level the playing field.

You pay your dues and you do your job.

When you are harassed by your boss for issues other than work you are protected.

If you are harassed by your boss for refusing to do dangerous work you are protected.

You go through a grievance and arbitration process.

You give the union the right to represent you and they use their legal team to fight on your behalf.

There are usually three levels, first level is to see if it is worth proceeding to the second level sometimes management and the union can resolve it if not then it goes to the second and third level.

When you look at it management likes the union because when the employees get a raise the managers get one as well.

For those of you that don’t like the union and quit their jobs and scurried to a non union shop that’s great because it opens up a position for a person that can really use the money.

 

[L Gilbert]

lol That's funny Gliberalman. Nuts but funny.

 

[JLM]

lol That's funny Gliberalman. Nuts but funny.

Yeah, he don't know what he's talking about.

 

[JLM]

"You obviously don't understand business. Half decent employers don't exist Business in a nutshell is pay low and sell high."- Oh, I've heard that Hewlett Packard for one is a very good employer. But I guess I'm somewhat prejudiced, having worked in a Union operation for over 25 years. My experience was the Union did very little to smooth out the operation for the "workers" who were interested in productivity and doing a good job in other words there to WORK. Pretty well all their efforts went toward protecting (and even encouraging) the drones, sh*t disturbers and parasites. It's just another level of bureaucracy that isn't needed and quite frankly we can't afford. We are no longer living in the days when 8 year old kids worked 16 hours a day in the coal mines for a dollar a month.

 

[Colpy]

"You obviously don't understand business. Half decent employers don't exist Business in a nutshell is pay low and sell high."- Oh, I've heard that Hewlett Packard for one is a very good employer. But I guess I'm somewhat prejudiced, having worked in a Union operation for over 25 years. My experience was the Union did very little to smooth out the operation for the "workers" who were interested in productivity and doing a good job in other words there to WORK. Pretty well all their efforts went toward protecting (and even encouraging) the drones, sh*t disturbers and parasites. It's just another level of bureaucracy that isn't needed and quite frankly we can't afford. We are no longer living in the days when 8 year old kids worked 16 hours a day in the coal mines for a dollar a month.

hmmmm

Obviously, I'm a union supporter, but one has to admit that sometimes with unions it is the squeeking (and least deserving) wheel that gets the grease.

But I'm a damned good worker, and I'd have lost my job a lot sooner without union protection......


Unions, like all human institutions, are flawed.......but that does not make them unnecessary.

 

[JLM]

hmmmm

Obviously, I'm a union supporter, but one has to admit that sometimes with unions it is the squeeking (and least deserving) wheel that gets the grease.

But I'm a damned good worker, and I'd have lost my job a lot sooner without union protection......


Unions, like all human institutions, are flawed.......but that does not make them unnecessary.

I was just relating my experience (with one Union) more than passing judgment. I think Unions COULD play an important role - focus their activity on safety matters, which would benefit all workers including the drones (unless of course the drones themselves are a hazard on the worksite) :lol:

 

[Zzarchov]

If you are working for a half decent employer and you are making money for him, you don't need a Union to get a fair wages- all you have to do is go to work for someone else who would be glad to have someone making money for them. AFter awhile they'll get the picture. Not many employers can turn their noses up at more profits.

Depending, there are alot of things an employer can and if allowed, will do to ensure you keep working for them for as little as possible.

I know of an employee who got an under the table "She's stealing" reference to keep her from getting a new job that paid better, instead keeping her in her existing job where the employer needed her. It got out, but not with enough proof to prove anything. Thats one of the incidents that got the employees to contact the CAW to try and unionize the place.

Its a mistaken logic that because you are essential you will be well compensated, there are other ways to keep essential supplies in place.

Now there are other ways that work well to lessen the need of unions in terms of fair compensation, some slavic countries make tax records public documents..when you know what all your coworkers are being paid to do your job, it becomes alot harder for employers to lowball employees with contract regulations preventing you from discussing your compensation.

Of course, if its simply too much work for you to do all this research and legal work, there is a solution! Just like corporations can have legal departments, you can hire a union to do the work for you! Just join and pay your dues!

If you really want to get rid of Unions, lets get rid of Corporations as well. If you want to run a business then you can't offload the liability to an imaginary person and keep the rewards.

 

[Risus]

hmmmm

Obviously, I'm a union supporter, but one has to admit that sometimes with unions it is the squeeking (and least deserving) wheel that gets the grease.

But I'm a damned good worker, and I'd have lost my job a lot sooner without union protection......


Unions, like all human institutions, are flawed.......but that does not make them unnecessary.

The only thing a union does is to protect the lazy, useless workers.

Get over it. Unions are not necessary.

 

[Zzarchov]

Then don't join one.

I always laugh when people say "8 year old kids don't work 16 hour days anymore"

Yes, they do, in countries without a sizeable unionized workforce. Canada is about 1/3rd unionized, meaning your wages are higher even if you are not in a union since unions form a labour cartel.

This is no different than how OPEC can set world Oil prices, even though most Oil doesn't come through OPEC.

I run a business, I hire people, and Im not running a charity. If I can get people to work for nothing, I will have them work for nothing (Interns). I will pay employees as little as possible because that is business. I don't call up any other supplier and say "I think you are charging too little, I'd like to pay you more to represent your value to me", even if there prices are great I call them up and try and get a bargain.

Why the hell would I pay labour suppliers (emloyees) a penny more than I have to? That being said I fully expect employees to bargain for a better raise and I expect them to rake me over the coals when they have the upper hand. Because thats business and they aren't running a charity either, they are selling their time. If they wanted to form a union for better negotiating leverage I say go for it. I have no problem forming buying groups to get better leverage against suppliers in negotiations.

I hate this pinko "Anti-Union" crap masquerading as pro-business. If you hate Unions and the Free Market so much why not move to Cuba, they don't allow them there.

 

[Machjo]

You obviously don’t understand business. Half decent employers don’t exist Business in a nutshell is pay low and sell high.

In a non union setting office politics rules.

This means that in order to get a head you need to bend over and take it from the boss metaphorically speaking.

In a non union setting hard working individuals don’t always get the raises and if they complain about it they are told to hit the road. Union shops level the playing field.

You pay your dues and you do your job.

When you are harassed by your boss for issues other than work you are protected.

If you are harassed by your boss for refusing to do dangerous work you are protected.

You go through a grievance and arbitration process.

You give the union the right to represent you and they use their legal team to fight on your behalf.

There are usually three levels, first level is to see if it is worth proceeding to the second level sometimes management and the union can resolve it if not then it goes to the second and third level.

When you look at it management likes the union because when the employees get a raise the managers get one as well.

For those of you that don’t like the union and quit their jobs and scurried to a non union shop that’s great because it opens up a position for a person that can really use the money.

I feel for you; you've obviously never worked for a decent employer then if you always needed a union to protect you. But I suppose if you have such a bad employer, then a union is necessry.

From my experiences, though, good employers do exist, and I foudn that when there is no union, labour and management can work together rather than always against one another. Much more pleasent environment in my opinion. Who wants to work in a constant battlefield?

I have had bad employers too, and as I mentioned before, I nailed them without a union. That's what the law is for. if you know your rights, your employer will leave you alone.

 

[JLM]

I feel for you; you've obviously never worked for a decent employer then if you always needed a union to protect you. But I suppose if you have such a bad employer, then a union is necessry.

From my experiences, though, good employers do exist, and I foudn that when there is no union, labour and management can work together rather than always against one another. Much more pleasent environment in my opinion. Who wants to work in a constant battlefield?

I have had bad employers too, and as I mentioned before, I nailed them without a union. That's what the law is for. if you know your rights, your employer will leave you alone.

you hit the nail right on the head, but your words are falling on a lot of deaf ears. There's a mentality out there because of what it is they need a union.

 

[Tyr]

Having never been the member of a union, how do you know they are useless???

We need unions once again......if you want to look at inflated wages, check out CEOs before you start whinning about unions!!!!

Union wages are not artificially inflated, at least not in the private sector. I've been a member of a couple of unions in my time......and believe me, they are very necessary in the areas in which I worked.....for example, armoured car guards are consistently pressured and threatened to do dangerous work, as in drive cross-country in blizzards, drive 14, 15 hour shifts, work 24+ hours straight........all of which are illegal. Yey the company will insist it must be done.... the ice storm in the late 90s? we put our regular 3 cross-country runs out on the road......two of the trucks wound up in the woods.

This only stopped, or at least the pressure lessened, because of the union........labour laws are useless. For instance, you have the right to refuse to do dangerous work. You think that is to protect the labourer, right?

Wrong.

It puts the onus of refusal on the worker. If I drive in a blizzard, or more than 13 hours, or do anything else dangerous or illegal, it doesn't matter that the employer threatened to fire me (as has happened to me)...........it doesn't matter that the manager calls me a coward, a liar, repeatedly calls me to berate me......the second I give in and do as I am ordered......any consequences, legal or otherwise, are deemed to be my fault.

My "right to refuse dangerous work" protects the employer.....the fact I have a right to refuse means that it was my choice to do what I did, doesn't it? The employer is blameless.

Oh yes, unions are necessary.

With the widening class gap, and the disappearing middle class, they are more necessary now than they have been in decades.

Obviously you didn't read the post very closely. I was a member of a union and quit becasue of it. It did absolutely nothing for anybody except make the union hierarchy wealthy

Union wages are create a falsely inflated wage system. Auto workers, dock workers, etc... make far more than their skill set would dictate

I've been a member of a couple of unions in my time......and believe me, they are very necessary in the areas in which I worked.....for example, armoured car guards are consistently pressured and threatened to do dangerous work, as in drive cross-country in blizzards, drive 14, 15 hour shifts, work 24+ hours straight........all of which are illegal

That is a choice, not an absolute. You also had the choice of quitting. You chose your occupation

As for the class gap.. unions will (and haven''t) done anything to resolve that disparity

Now. Have you ever had to hire a unionized firm? It's an exercise in futility