The Power of Hatred

[LeftCoast]

Nice piece ITN.

Sounds just like Robert MacNamara or Gen. Westmoreland circa 1967 "if we just had more troops ..."

 

[Ocean Breeze]

seems this misses a crucial point. If one wants the cycle of violence to stop........it starts with not "them" , but "us". It is easy to project the problem onto others without factoring in the fact that one is a big part of the issue.

hypothetically: IF the violence would end. ( from their end) what would happen??? Would the US go home?? YES Would the US stop building it military bases ??? NO Would the contracts (US) in place now.......be aborted??? NO Would Iraq be free of the US and independant again??? YES

self contradicting.& Does not follow logic.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm sorry to hear that you lost somebody on 9-11, ITN. What's that got to do with Iraq though?

 

[I think not]

seems this misses a crucial point. If one wants the cycle of violence to stop........it starts with not "them" , but "us". It is easy to project the problem onto others without factoring in the fact that one is a big part of the issue.

hypothetically: IF the violence would end. ( from their end) what would happen??? Would the US go home?? YES Would the US stop building it military bases ??? NO Would the contracts (US) in place now.......be aborted??? NO Would Iraq be free of the US and independant again??? YES

self contradicting.& Does not follow logic.

It doesn't fit you pre-concpetions and thats all it is. Time will prove either one of us wrong.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

I'm sorry to hear that you lost somebody on 9-11, ITN. What's that got to do with Iraq though?

my fault. I brought it up as an example of how people can react with "hatred". (shoulda known better..

 

[Ocean Breeze]

seems this misses a crucial point. If one wants the cycle of violence to stop........it starts with not "them" , but "us". It is easy to project the problem onto others without factoring in the fact that one is a big part of the issue.

hypothetically: IF the violence would end. ( from their end) what would happen??? Would the US go home?? YES Would the US stop building it military bases ??? NO Would the contracts (US) in place now.......be aborted??? NO Would Iraq be free of the US and independant again??? YES

self contradicting.& Does not follow logic.

It doesn't fit you pre-concpetions and thats all it is. Time will prove either one of us wrong.

what is interesting is that you can be so "certain' and definitive in your "yes"/"no" responses.

 

[I think not]

seems this misses a crucial point. If one wants the cycle of violence to stop........it starts with not "them" , but "us". It is easy to project the problem onto others without factoring in the fact that one is a big part of the issue.

hypothetically: IF the violence would end. ( from their end) what would happen??? Would the US go home?? YES Would the US stop building it military bases ??? NO Would the contracts (US) in place now.......be aborted??? NO Would Iraq be free of the US and independant again??? YES

self contradicting.& Does not follow logic.

It doesn't fit you pre-concpetions and thats all it is. Time will prove either one of us wrong.

what is interesting is that you can be so "certain' and definitive in your "yes"/"no" responses.

Yeah, because I actullay believe what I say. And I will believe it until proven otherwise.

 

[annabattler]

No amount of "proper" training could teach anyone how to defend against an intent suicidal bomber.
In spite of belonging to the world's strongest military,U.S. troops fall victim daily.
The suicide bombers have learned a strong lesson....that the best way to deal with their cause(legitimate or not)is to concentrate on the effects of their actions...they've managed to stymie the world's best,managed to create doubt in the minds of the American public,and are managing to undermine any long term American-held goal for Iraq to become self policing.

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Practices undercut nation's principles

By Trish O'Kane

07/03/05 "Montgomery Advertiser" - - This July Fourth, the hood seems a more fitting patriotic symbol than the flag. For we the people, as a nation, have donned one so we do not have to face ourselves or the family members of people like Dilawar.

It was the eve of a Muslim holiday that December. A shy, thin, unschooled 22-year-old, Dilawar was an aspiring taxi driver in the village of Yakubi.

Dilawar's mother wanted the entire family together for the holiday and asked him to pick up three sisters from neighboring villages. Dilawar needed gas money, so he went to work in a nearby city.

He collected three passengers. On the way home, he passed Camp Salerno, a U.S. base that had been attacked that morning. Afghan militiamen stopped the taxi and turned Dilawar and passengers over to U.S. soldiers as suspects.

The three passengers ended up in Guantanamo, where they spent over a year before they were sent home without charge.

Dilawar was sent to Camp Bagram, another U.S.-Afghan base. He arrived Dec. 5. It was a U.S. camp where torture was routine, according to a nearly 2,000 page confidential Army investigation file given to the New York Times by a military official. Dilawar's story and others were published in the New York Times on May 20. Twenty-four hours before Dilawar arrived, another prisoner named Habibullah died after four days of being beaten and kicked. Soldiers told investigators they beat him while he was chained to the ceiling. The autopsy reported bruises on Habibullah's chest, arms and head, and deep contusions on calves, knees and thighs.

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers described a female interrogator at Bagram stepping on a prisoner's neck and kicking another in the genitals. One Bagram interrogator was nicknamed "the monster," and a group of Bagram soldiers were called "the Testosterone Gang."

Dilawar lasted five days. Interrogators later told Army investigators they believed he was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the base. He was tortured by Americans his own age who said it was "funny" to hear him cry "Allah" when they hit him. One soldier estimated they hit Dilawar in the legs over 100 times in 24 hours. Dilawar died when his heart failed due to "blunt force injuries to the lower extremities."

Military coroners declared both deaths "homicides." One coroner described Dilawar's legs as "pulpified."

On Sept. 16, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney said: "We also have to work 'the dark side,' spend time in the shadows. It's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal."

Dilawar died in December of 2002. Between 2001, when Cheney made this statement, and 2005, at least 108 prisoners have died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan (Associated Press, March 16, 2005.) Just one death occurred at Abu Ghraib.

Take off your hood and read the Army reports published online thanks to the American Civil Liberties Union (www.cid.army.mil/Documents and aclu.org/torturefoia/).

This is what you will see by the dawn's early light:

Our flag waving over a sprawling prison network of some 42 camps holding 11,000 prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo. The government admits to "detaining" at least 50,000 since US military operations began.

Our soldiers using a dead Iraqi to wave hello on a DVD called "Ramadi Madness," and brutalizing Iraqi prisoners. Army documents published in March 2005 described the DVD (see Palm Beach Post website).

Abu Ghraib prisoner Manadel Al-Jamedi, suspended by the wrists, hands cuffed behind his back, in a practice called "Palestinian hanging." Al-Jamedi died in a shower room during a half-hour interrogation by the CIA and Navy Seals (Army account in Associated Press story, Feb. 17, 2005.)

An Iraqi father begging for his teenage son's life as our soldiers stage a mock execution (Army documents published April 19, 2005.)

Two Iraqi prisoners on a bridge, and three U.S. soldiers behind them, pushing them off. One prisoner could not swim and drowned. His family found his body 12 days later (Army report published July 15, 2004.)

Is this what so proudly we hail, at the twilight's last gleaming?

yes, this would qualify under the power of "hatred". :twisted:

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: The Power of Hatred

Seems very few human lessons were learned in the US as a result of 9-11. what it feels like to be attacked , and the emotions this brings forth. Imagine how the Iraqis must have felt.......KNOWING their country was going to be attacked. Hearing all those promises of "freedom" etc......while having to cope with daily deaths and destruction. Wonder how they feel about the lies that were told in order to invade??? How would any nation feel??

As long as one lesson is learned...and that is, don't ever, ever f**ck with the USA again...don't hint at it, don't smile if someone mentions it, or there will be hell to pay...10000 fold what ever the enemy does to them.

Did you really think the USA was going to not react to this and bash a few enemies heads around? Really the world isn't run by little girls….

 

[missile]

I,too,believe that we have been hated by the Moslem world ever since the first crusade. Man,can those dudes ever hold a grudge!

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: The Power of Hatred

As long as one lesson is learned...and that is, don't ever, ever f**ck with the USA again...don't hint at it, don't smile if someone mentions it, or there will be hell to pay...10000 fold what ever the enemy does to them.

Did you really think the USA was going to not react to this and bash a few enemies heads around? Really the world isn't run by little girls….

Enemies? Ay-Rak wasn't an enemy @ the time of 911. Bin Laden & the Taliban were more suspect and even then at the time, the Taliban were actually going to try hand him over, but the 4-6 week wait wasn't enough.

Yes, it's ok to bash your enemies heads when they pick on you, but when you go bashing anyone who you don't like after an enemy does something well that just has to say alot about the mentality of those lashing out.

It's no different than a witch hunt. Can't find the person who's pissing you off? Well find someone else you doesn't look right and get them. Even better if they're smaller. For christ sakes man! Yes the states had an enemy in the middle east on 911, but the way they handled the problem they've now even gained the Animosity of former allies in that region.

 

[LeftCoast]

re: Trish O'Kane piece from the Montgomery Advertiser:

[bitter sarcasm]
Oh but he was just a terrorist.
[/bitter sarcasm]

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: The Power of Hatred

Seems very few human lessons were learned in the US as a result of 9-11. what it feels like to be attacked , and the emotions this brings forth. Imagine how the Iraqis must have felt.......KNOWING their country was going to be attacked. Hearing all those promises of "freedom" etc......while having to cope with daily deaths and destruction. Wonder how they feel about the lies that were told in order to invade??? How would any nation feel??

As long as one lesson is learned...and that is, don't ever, ever f**ck with the USA again...don't hint at it, don't smile if someone mentions it, or there will be hell to pay...10000 fold what ever the enemy does to them.

Did you really think the USA was going to not react to this and bash a few enemies heads around? Really the world isn't run by little girls….

Well yes, a devastating reprisal was expected by the world in response to 911...what we didn't count on at the time was that the US government would take it to the level that they did, and become just as criminally culpable as those they were claiming the right of revenge...and that was only in Afghanistan, where their right to revenge actually extended...

Iraq though, is just wrong on far too many levels, and the US will be despised for many years to come because of it...

[rant]That's right, the US, the people, the government, all of it...I myself do not hate the population of the US...I think they're silly bastards for voting Bush in for a second term, but then I understand that the alternative was equally untenable...

But many people around the world do despise the American people because of the US government's interventions throughout the world and leading up to, and including Iraq...

America fosters a culture of supremacy which many find offensive...that attitude is evident here on this board, and on many American boards that I've visited...it seems to be the American way to try to subvert ones ideology to their own as if its in the best interests of everyone involved...even here our uniquely Canadian identities are marginalized by those with American interests at heart...

Many here have lamented Canada's lack of cultural identity...I agree to a certain extent...but also I know that our identity has been stolen from us, or rather given away, by those that would subvert us to their ideologies...

One of the last stongholds of true Canadian identity was our military, but even that has been pawned off piece-meal and now is being integrated in a Pan-American security force...

What we should be discussing here is what we, the people and pride of Canada, can do to stop this usurpation of our sovereignty, our identity, and way of life...never in her history has our great nation needed us more...

So rise up Canadians, rise up and cast off the shackles of our oppressors...we must send a clear message, to our government and theirs, that we will not submit our will to theirs, we will not place their interests above our own, and we will not become Americans...

WE ARE CANADIANS...AND WE ARE NOT AFRAID!!![/rant]

 

[Jay]

"what we didn't count on at the time was that the US government would take it to the level that they did,"


Well the world now knows...and I'm hoping they won't forget for a long, long time.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: The Power of Hatred

Well the world now knows...and I'm hoping they won't forget for a long, long time.

You've already got your wish, however it's resentment over the US's attitude will last a long time and it won't benefit the US at all in the future, even when they're trying to mend fences. They've shot themselves in the foot and the race isn't even finished.

 

[manda]

Re: RE: The Power of Hatred

As long as one lesson is learned...and that is, don't ever, ever f**ck with the USA again...don't hint at it, don't smile if someone mentions it, or there will be hell to pay...10000 fold what ever the enemy does to them.

Did you really think the USA was going to not react to this and bash a few enemies heads around? Really the world isn't run by little girls….[/quote]

This does not sound like the philosophy of little girls...this is more of a schoolyard bully mentality. If the whole world reacted in this type of manner, no country would ever have any semblance of peace, because there is always the "he said, she said..." bullshit existing in all walks of life :!:

It is important to step back and examine all implications of declaring war for all sides involved before rushing in...wether it be justified or not. The only planning that seems that I see Bush having done is equal to that of my 8 year old son... sit on the floor (or the oval office) with green and tan plastic army men, attack and then knock them all down. The difference is, my child knows that he is playing, where Bush said "this looks good, lets send the army to that place on my miscontrued plastic floor map. Perhaps he thought the gorgraphy on that map was accurate and "accidentally sent the troops to Iraq instead of Afghanistan, and then tried to cover this gross oversight by saying they had WMD's :withstupid:

 

[TenPenny]

"As long as one lesson is learned...and that is, don't ever, ever f**ck with the USA again...don't hint at it, don't smile if someone mentions it, or there will be hell to pay...10000 fold what ever the enemy does to them. "

Right; Osama bin Laden has really been punished for what he did, hasn't he?????

I think the lesson is, don't f*&k with the USA, or we'll go after SOMEBODY ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jay]

"Right; Osama bin Laden has really been punished for what he did, hasn't he????? "

The government that was aiding him sure paid a heavy price though...