The Iroquois Nationals team won't be attending the world championship in Manchester

talloola

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Nov 14, 2006
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Where did I say they attacked anyone? I was pointing out the difference between then and now, and the reason for increased security. It's been acknowledged that the "visa's" that the Iroquois hand out do NOT have adequate security measures. In other words they would be easy to forge. why don't you grab a brain before spouting off your stupidity.

yes, it is a security issue, and yes, it has changed since 911, and many other people, other than 'them',
have had security problems, so perhaps someone should have updated their passports to prevent this particular inconvenience, someone with a little forethought, or just an
inquiry to customs before they started their trip.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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This is retarded.

The governing body of the World Lacrosse Championship is the International Lacrosse Federation.

The Iroquois Confederacy is a full member, along with members such as Australia, Canada, England, the United States, New Zealand...in all.

The Iroquois National Lacrosse Organization is officially recognized in the sport.

This is pure politics, denying a strong team the chance to compete with other members OF THE SAME SPORTS FEDERATION.

It's horse $hit.

Not denying them the chance to compete, just denying their visas. All they need to have done was get a Canadian or u.s. Visa to travel with.

What we have here is another example of the "look at how I am being discriminated against, poor me" where it is a problem brought on by themselves and no one else.
 

Tonington

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Other nations in the same Federation, as already mentioned by another poster, allowed the Iroquois Confederacy to travel on their passport. If a member of the Federation doesn't accept the travel documents of another member, then they have no business hosting that Federation's premier tournament.

And lookey here, from a 1990 Grey Lady article:

The Nationals will travel abroad with their own passports as a team representing a sovereign nation. The Iroquois passport, a practical symbol of sovereignity, evolved from negotiations with the State Department, Canada, Britain and other countries and has been used since 1977.
Putting Tradition to the Test - NYTimes.com
 

Risus

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May 24, 2006
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Now wait a minute folks -- I read a long time ago where the Iroquois Confederation of New York sent a team to play back in England during the 1870s. They weren't USA citizens back then. Why was London willing to accept Haudenosaunee back then but not today?

The only thing I can think of is that England is afraid they're going to lose and don't have the sportsmanship to take on a tougher team. Don't know if it's true but they should allow the Iroquois to play. If not, then England should be boycotted.

Do you want some cheese with that whine???

Not denying them the chance to compete, just denying their visas. All they need to have done was get a Canadian or u.s. Visa to travel with.

What we have here is another example of the "look at how I am being discriminated against, poor me" where it is a problem brought on by themselves and no one else.

Yep, if they abided with the laws they wouldn't have been this situation.
 

Goober

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Other nations in the same Federation, as already mentioned by another poster, allowed the Iroquois Confederacy to travel on their passport. If a member of the Federation doesn't accept the travel documents of another member, then they have no business hosting that Federation's premier tournament.

And lookey here, from a 1990 Grey Lady article:

Putting Tradition to the Test - NYTimes.com


Has the world changed - Yes - as one poster brought forarwd - Do we have the ability to work together and deseign a pasppot for these 1st nations that meets the security requirements - Yes -

But the Security safeguards built into passports would have to be adhered to and presented to the 1st nations not as a demand as crats and politicians sometimes have a tendency to do - but has to be done with mutual respect, the undestanding of 2 on the same but differing path and a willingness to work together towards a solution.

And I am sure if the govt racked a few heads - the 1st nations if required to do the same with any hotheads - and this is a situation that can bring that out on both side - put a smart person in charge from the Govt and 1st nations and a temporary solution could be done within a matter of days.

Canada has 3 - and I say again 3 founding Nations in this country - Get used to it.
 

gopher

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"if they abided with the laws they wouldn't have been this situation."

Yeah like the Constitution and the Jay Treaty of 1794 aren't law. Rather it is the government of England that has failed to recognize a law it signed and has recognized for over 200 years:


Onondaga Nation - People of the Hills


THE HAUDENOSAUNEE CONFEDERACY:
SOVEREIGNTY, CITIZENSHIP and PASSPORTS
The Haudenosaunee Confederacy was formed by our Peacemaker over 1000 years ago, according to our Gayanashagowa, or Great Law of Peace; and it is the oldest continuous democratic government in North America. Our system of confederated government was acknowledged as the model for your government by the United States Congress in 1987.

The Haudenosaunee have been traveling on our own passports for over 30 years and they have been accepted into dozens of countries. There has never been a security issue raised during this extensive travel history. Our Nationals lacrosse team has traveled to Japan, Australia and other countries on Haudenosaunee passports in the past. Haudenosaunee citizens and leaders have traveled extensively this year on our passports. We do not have a satisfactory explanation as to why policy has abruptly been changed.

The Haudenosaunee hold some of the earliest Treaties made by the US government: the 1784 Treaty of Fort Stanwix, the 1789 Treaty of Harmor and the historic 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua. These Treaties were made in the spirit of our first treaty with the European settlers: the Guswenta, or Two Row Wampum, an agreement of mutual respect and non-interference we made with the Dutch in 1613, as they first entered our territory.

The Treaty of Canandaigua is still acknowledged and celebrated every year on its anniversary, November 11th, by the respective governments. As recently as February of this year, the United State Department of Justice re-affirmed the continued validity of the Treaty of Canandaigua in an Amicus brief it filed in New York State Court of Appeals, in support of the Cayuga Nation, by positively reaffirming that the Treaty is still valid and that the Cayuga Nation reservation recognized in the Treaty has not been disestablished.

These treaties are between sovereigns: the United States as one party and the Six Nations of the Haudenosaunee as the other party. These treaties are clear evidence that we are a separate sovereign and that our citizens are not US citizens, despite the unilateral attempt by the US in 1924 with its Citizenship Act. The Haudenosaunee sent a clear letter to the President of the US in 1924 stating that we were not willing to relinquish our citizenship.

Further, our right to pass over the US/Canadian border freely is protected by Article III of the 1794 Jay Treaty, which guaranteed “Indians dwelling on either side” of the international boundary the right “freely to pass and repass by land or inland navigation” into either Canada or the United States. (8 Stat. 116.)

For many years, Haudenosaunee citizens have traveled using our own passports and identification cards. In our view, the term “freely” in the Jay Treaty means that burdensome documentation requirements cannot be lawfully imposed without our consent. Our right to carry our own documentation is a part of our right to self determination. In recent years, we have worked hard to ensure that the federal government continues to respect our right to carry our own documentation.

Nya wenha and dawnaytoh,

Oren Lyons
Faithkeeper, Turtle Clan
Onondaga Nation
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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And the Brits have the right to refuse to recognize a visa or passport at any time. All the whining in the world won't make a difference.
 

Downhome_Woman

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Do you want some cheese with that whine???



Yep, if they abided with the laws they wouldn't have been this situation.

What law didn't they 'abide' by? Their First Nations passports have been accepted throughout the world before - why shouldn't they be now?

yes, it is a security issue, and yes, it has changed since 911, and many other people, other than 'them',
have had security problems, so perhaps someone should have updated their passports to prevent this particular inconvenience, someone with a little forethought, or just an
inquiry to customs before they started their trip.

Maybe they should have looked to see if their passports were considered valid, but then again, they have been considered 'valid' over the years, why should they think anything had changed?
Yes - I understand the whole 9-11 security issue - good lord - I have a husband who spent much back and forth time between Canada and Afghanistan - but that doesn't make me question the validity of my passport - which I've used, just as these people have used their First Nations passports.
 

talloola

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What law didn't they 'abide' by? Their First Nations passports have been accepted throughout the world before - why shouldn't they be now?



Maybe they should have looked to see if their passports were considered valid, but then again, they have been considered 'valid' over the years, why should they think anything had changed?
Yes - I understand the whole 9-11 security issue - good lord - I have a husband who spent much back and forth time between Canada and Afghanistan - but that doesn't make me question the validity of my passport - which I've used, just as these people have used their First Nations passports.

I guess since 911 many things changed for those travelling in and out of the country, and many other people
have been inconvenienced as well, and i'm sure if their passports, (or whatever it was that was questioned)
had been in order, they would have travelled without any problems, the fact that they travelled before must
have been a long time ago, and should have been renewed or brought up to new standards.
These are just obvious things in my opinion, and someone representing the team didn't think about it, and
just assumed everything was fine, now they know it isn't. These sorts of things have
inconvenienced lots of 'different' types of people, not 'just' them.

Does anyone know now if they finally got away later on in the day, as they were waiting to find out.
 

Trotz

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and what would those 3 nations be goober?

Contemporary revisionist will claim that everyone signed the articles of Confederation but the historical truth was that it were mainly Anglo-Saxon protestants. Of course that doesn't mean we're still that same country as in 1867. Canada today is a Federation of multiple nations, Anglo-Canada, Franco-Canada, even the provinces themselves could be considered nations and other minor nations such as the Iroquois, Cree, et al.
 

CDNBear

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And the Brits have the right to refuse to recognize a visa or passport at any time. All the whining in the world won't make a difference.
And I have to agree with Gh here 100%.

What law didn't they 'abide' by? Their First Nations passports have been accepted throughout the world before - why shouldn't they be now?
Because things have change DHW. If you fail to keep up with the times, you'll get left behind.

Does anyone know now if they finally got away later on in the day, as they were waiting to find out.
As of midnight last night, no, still waiting.
 

Downhome_Woman

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And I have to agree with Gh here 100%.

Because things have change DHW. If you fail to keep up with the times, you'll get left behind.

As of midnight last night, no, still waiting.

True, things do change and one can't dwell on the past. Possibly my frustration lies with the glibness that some people have when they say to 'get over it', or when they insist that FN peoples should be following the law to the letter while failing to address the fact that many of the problems within the FN communities have their roots in the fact that the government itself did not 'abide by the law'.
Having said that, I'm a firm believer that we are the authors of our own fortune - while it would be great if those who have wronged us sometimes step up and actually make real recompense for past wrongs, we cannot rely on that to better our lives - none of us can stand around and wait for others to change or fix our lives - ultimately we can only do it for our selves.
I used to work with a woman who was highly intelligent - but highly emotionally abusive. she blamed her problems on a tortured childhood, the death of a spouse, on nuns who belittled her. While I understood the trauma in her life and how it had affected her, my thought was that rather than take her issues out on me, do something and actually deal with the issues because her husband was not going to come back to life and her family was still going to love her sister more than her.
 

CDNBear

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True, things do change and one can't dwell on the past. Possibly my frustration lies with the glibness that some people have when they say to 'get over it', or when they insist that FN peoples should be following the law to the letter while failing to address the fact that many of the problems within the FN communities have their roots in the fact that the government itself did not 'abide by the law'.
Ma'am, you're preaching to the choir. As a member of the Onondaga Nation, and fiercely proud Canadian, I'm aware of the problems from a couple perspectives.

Having said that, I'm a firm believer that we are the authors of our own fortune - while it would be great if those who have wronged us sometimes step up and actually make real recompense for past wrongs, we cannot rely on that to better our lives - none of us can stand around and wait for others to change or fix our lives - ultimately we can only do it for our selves.
Truer words could not be said. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility and accountability.
I used to work with a woman who was highly intelligent - but highly emotionally abusive. she blamed her problems on a tortured childhood, the death of a spouse, on nuns who belittled her. While I understood the trauma in her life and how it had affected her, my thought was that rather than take her issues out on me, do something and actually deal with the issues because her husband was not going to come back to life and her family was still going to love her sister more than her.
That would have been some cold, sound advice. Life just isn't fair. Some are aware of this, some aren't, and as you so eloquently point out, some want someone else to fix it when it ain't.

Here's where I am, I agree with Gh because he's right. Just as I and others were right when we said the same thing about George Galloway, when Canada barred his entry. It actually doesn't even matter if they were carrying Canadian passports, Britain could have still barred them entry.

I'm hurt, this is a team I watch and admire. I would have loved to see them compete on the international stage under our flag. We didn't just help invent this game, the creator gave us this game. It is our game.

But that hurt is tempered with the fact that since 9/11, I've had to adjust my life to accommodate the changes to international security. I don't live under a rock, so I saw some of them come as the the talking heads pointed out the measures in the works. I can't be alone and if I wanted to be up to speed with the changing times, I would have to be proactive.

In this case the leaders of the Six Nations, and I use the word "leaders" loosely. Should have been ahead of the curve and sought to have our passports brought up to the same level as those in use, around the world. That way we could have avoided this situation altogether.

From my perspective, this is just another case of our leaders, again used loosely, letting us down. That includes the ones in Ottawa and Washington, that wouldn't confirm that they would grant re-entry. Which was Britain's issue, from the get go.

So I'm stuck in this limbo, between what I see as an injustice, but I understand why it's taking place. The only thing in all this that I can not stand, is people like juan, who will use the opportunity to take another kick at the First Nations. He's been schooled so many times on the reality of it, and yet prefers his myopic and ignorantly racist perception, as apposed to the truth.

On some levels I wish he was right though, I could use some free money from the feds. I really wish people like him could tell me how to get some of that money they claim we all get.
 
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Downhome_Woman

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Ma'am, you're preaching to the choir. As a member of the Onondaga Nation, and fiercely proud Canadian, I'm aware of the problems from a couple perspectives.

Truer words could not be said. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility and accountability.
That would have been some cold, sound advice. Life just isn't fair. Some are aware of this, some aren't, and as you so eloquently point out, some want someone else to fix it when it ain't.
I finally became pro-active and left the job - but not without some serious self worth issues - she told me that if I left, I'd never be able to get a job without her or my employer's recommendation. 3 weeks later I had a temporary seasonal job that parlayed itself into a permanent job that only ended because moved. It took me years to 'get over' the personal attacks, put downs and slurs dished out by that woman but I didn't just sit and wait for someone else to raise my self esteem - I knew that in the end the only person that could do that was myself.

Here's where I am, I agree with Gh because he's right. Just as I and others were right when we said the same thing about George Galloway, when Canada barred his entry. It actually doesn't even matter if they were carrying Canadian passports, Britain could have still barred them entry.
I don't know if Britain would have banned them if they had been carrying Canadian passports but you're right. Each country has that sovereign right to allow whomever they wish into theier country.

I'm hurt, this is a team I watch and admire. I would have loved to see them compete on the international stage under our flag. We didn't just help invent this game, the creator gave us this game. It is our game.

But that hurt is tempered with the fact that since 9/11, I've had to adjust my life to accommodate the changes to international security. I don't live under a rock, so I saw some of them come as the the talking heads pointed out the measures in the works. I can't be alone and if I wanted to be up to speed with the changing times, I would have to be proactive.

In this case the leaders of the Six Nations, and I use the word "leaders" loosely. Should have been ahead of the curve and sought to have our passports brought up to the same level as those in use, around the world. That way we could have avoided this situation altogether.
Exactly! Passports change for a multitude of reasons - the world situation, new laws, etc. Do you remember when you could have your child on your passport? Now with the eye on child abduction, children have their own passports. how often have you heard of someone who has gone traveling to another country and then being refused entry because they neglected to get a visa stamp! International travel has become increasingly more complicated but for some reason so many people refuse to accept that and do the work.


From my perspective, this is just another case of our leaders, again used loosely, letting us down. That includes the ones in Ottawa and Washington, that wouldn't confirm that they would grant re-entry. Which was Britain's issue, from the get go.

So I'm stuck in this limbo, between what I see as an injustice, but I understand why it's taking place. The only thing in all this that I can not stand, is people like juan, who will use the opportunity to take another kick at the First Nations. He's been schooled so many times on the reality of it, and yet prefers his myopic and ignorantly racist perception, as apposed to the truth.
They only see what they want to see. That woman I spoke about? She was the same. she didn't have an issue with First Nations - or Serbs - but god help you if she went on a rant when it came to Albanians, Jews, people from the South of Italy, Americans,,, ad infinitum ....

On some levels I wish he was right though, I could use some free money from the feds. I really wish people like him could tell me how to get some of that money they claim we all get.
:lol:


OK - I did this SO wrong!Bear, read into 'your' post and you'll find mine!:lol:
 

petros

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Quoting #juan You call yourselves "nations" bear but that doesn't make it so. Native Canadians, to a large extent live with their hands in the pockets of the rest of Canada. A good number of them still seem to think they can make their living by hunting and trapping. Hunting and trapping can make a living for some but there are a million native Canadians and except for those who have left the res and are living independently the rest are costing the Dept of Indian and Northern Affairs something like 8 or 9 billion dollars a year which is paid by the rest of Canada. This is not racism. Check the numbers

You can call me names bear......It's what you are best at.[/B]

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Canadian Polar Commission 3 / 3
Keep talking Juan, you just keep proving me right with every word you type, and sadly, you just aren't bright enough to realize it...

Not to mention that we don't go lobbing rockets into our neighbours yard to get what we want.
No. Just go into neighbours yard and TAKE what you want. ( I just love stereotypes).

Driving past neighbourhood park late lastnight on our way home, my wife burst out laughing so hard she could only point. In the park was my wheelbarrow (It's painted bright yellow and hot pink) being pushed by this tiny little gal. In the wheelbarrow was her passed out man and an 18 pack of Molsons.
 

CDNBear

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No. Just go into neighbours yard and TAKE what you want. ( I just love stereotypes).​
That was a rhetorical jab at eao, not something I prescribe to legitimately. As I'm sure you are actually aware.

Driving past neighbourhood park late lastnight on our way home, my wife burst out laughing so hard she could only point. In the park was my wheelbarrow (It's painted bright yellow and hot pink) being pushed by this tiny little gal. In the wheelbarrow was her passed out man and an 18 pack of Molsons.
How did you know it was yours?
 

CDNBear

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It's painted bright yellow and hot pink. I'll post a pic when I'm done work for today.
Oh so you painted it that colour, I thought you meant they painted it that colour, lmao.

I once painted a 1968 Beetle safety yellow with pink and purple paisleys. I was high a lot. What's your excuse?

LOL.