The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

[missile]

Was the entire gun control law the result of the massacre of those female students in Quebec,or the attack by that crazed soldier at the Assembly? my feeling is that it was the attack on fellow politicos. This mornings news reports that Martin intends to ban virtually every handgun in the country.

 

[Jay]

We've got the liberals trying to disarm the citizens and people think Harper is scary.....

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

You are justified in using lethal force when there is compelling reason to believe you or another person is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

That is the law.

So would you advocate that people carry concealed weapons everywhere they go? Should we have guns always quickly accessible? I meaning living in Toronto, something could happen anywhere at anytime, so when I go to the bank, grocery shopping, to the movies, pick up kids at school, I should have my handgun locked and loaded just in case?

 

[Jay]

With the correct licensing, I would advocate for people to be able carry concealed weapons.

You probably don't have to worry about it though....just go running up to the nearest cop when you feel your life is threatened.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

You prove my point in a way. We have two choices, either we are all armed and ready to shoot at all times, or we (attempt) to disarm everyone such that nobody has the ability to shoot.

Arming everyone would probably be easier than disarmament, however I think most people would agree that they prefer no guns rather than everyone having one.

Can you imagine how many shooting we would have? The definition of self-defense is very subjective. People would become trigger happy at any issue and claim self defense.

If I got into a road rage altercation, you can bet that I'm going to be ready to shoot the guy, because I would know he has a gun too and I'd want to shoot him before he shot me.

What about people who don't want to carry guns, they would be at a distinct disadvantage. What about kids? Say a women becomes surrounded by a group of youth (age 15). If she feels threaten, would it be okay if she shot them all, although they were unarmed?

 

[Jay]

I disagree with your analogy. We don't just have two choices.

You would have to be trained and licensed to have or carry a handgun. They aren't toys.

The road rage this is funny....Keep in mind a lot of people won't go through the hassle of obtaining the proper license for a concealable weapon.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

You are justified in using lethal force when there is compelling reason to believe you or another person is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

That is the law.

So would you advocate that people carry concealed weapons everywhere they go? Should we have guns always quickly accessible? I meaning living in Toronto, something could happen anywhere at anytime, so when I go to the bank, grocery shopping, to the movies, pick up kids at school, I should have my handgun locked and loaded just in case?

Where did you get that idea?

The above does not give anyone the right to carry in Canada. Lethal force can be a rock, your fists, a knife, anything can be a weapon.

Authorizations to carry handguns in Canada are very rare. The vast majority are held by armoured car guards, who must have extensive security checks, training, regular qualifications for ability, and must wear a uniform and carry their gun visibly. The type of weapon and the ammunition must be approved by the province.

I do, however, see no reason qualified individuals can not carry out of work.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

You prove my point in a way. We have two choices, either we are all armed and ready to shoot at all times, or we (attempt) to disarm everyone such that nobody has the ability to shoot.


Answer - what about free choice? The point is government intrusion into the private lives of its citizens. Denying its people the right to self-protection. Over the last 10 years I've watched a growing reluctance of police officers to provide protection to Canadians, usually in situations involving minorities and women. Including domestic complaints, road rage threats, stocking, prowling by night and to enforce peace bonds. There is a growing feeling amoung these armed services that the people are more to be controlled then served. It is an attitude that comes down from governments that become corrupt, and focus animousity toward the poor, and minorities.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

Can you imagine how many shooting we would have? The definition of self-defense is very subjective. People would become trigger happy at any issue and claim self defense.

If I got into a road rage altercation, you can bet that I'm going to be ready to shoot the guy, because I would know he has a gun too and I'd want to shoot him before he shot me.

What about people who don't want to carry guns, they would be at a distinct disadvantage. What about kids? Say a women becomes surrounded by a group of youth (age 15). If she feels threaten, would it be okay if she shot them all, although they were unarmed?

This has not been the American experience.

Most US states had strict laws against concealed carry of handguns 20 years ago. In 1989, Florida passed a law that required the state to issue a licence to carry a concealed handgun to any citizen that took a 12 hour qualification course and had no criminal record.

The anti-gun people howled their heads off about the wild west, and mayhem in the streets.

What happened was an immediate, and dramatic drop in violent street crime. Even the Miami police chief, a leader in opposition to the bill, had a road to Damascus conversion.

The odd thing is, only about 250,000 Florida citizens exercise their right to carry. The effect is that street punks don't know who it is safe to mug, so they turn to other (non-confrontational) forms of crime, and don't attack anyone.

The law was such a success that it has been adopted by 36 states.

Since 1989, the US murder rate has dropped 40%.

The most interesting thing about the Florida experience is the fact that the police are TWICE as apt to shoot someone without due cause as are armed private citizens.

 

[pastafarian]

Hey Colpy, can you back up those stats outside of NRA publications?

I agree they offer food for thought.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

Can you imagine how many shooting we would have? The definition of self-defense is very subjective. People would become trigger happy at any issue and claim self defense.

If I got into a road rage altercation, you can bet that I'm going to be ready to shoot the guy, because I would know he has a gun too and I'd want to shoot him before he shot me.

What about people who don't want to carry guns, they would be at a distinct disadvantage. What about kids? Say a women becomes surrounded by a group of youth (age 15). If she feels threaten, would it be okay if she shot them all, although they were unarmed?

This has not been the American experience.

Most US states had strict laws against concealed carry of handguns 20 years ago. In 1989, Florida passed a law that required the state to issue a licence to carry a concealed handgun to any citizen that took a 12 hour qualification course and had no criminal record.

The anti-gun people howled their heads off about the wild west, and mayhem in the streets.

What happened was an immediate, and dramatic drop in violent street crime. Even the Miami police chief, a leader in opposition to the bill, had a road to Damascus conversion.

The odd thing is, only about 250,000 Florida citizens exercise their right to carry. The effect is that street punks don't know who it is safe to mug, so they turn to other (non-confrontational) forms of crime, and don't attack anyone.

The law was such a success that it has been adopted by 36 states.

Since 1989, the US murder rate has dropped 40%.

The most interesting thing about the Florida experience is the fact that the police are TWICE as apt to shoot someone without due cause as are armed private citizens.

Thanks, Colpy.

I've heard in Florida the criminals target tourist now, because the odds of these people being armed is low.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

I disagree with your analogy. We don't just have two choices.

You would have to be trained and licensed to have or carry a handgun. They aren't toys.

The road rage this is funny....Keep in mind a lot of people won't go through the hassle of obtaining the proper license for a concealable weapon.

Would you agree with the concept that "No guns are better" if we were confidently able to stop the flow of illegal weapons into the country?

 

[Jay]

I can understand why someone would think that, but I can't agree with that position.

If you seriously want to stop people from physically hurting one another, it might be a better idea to chop everyone's hands off at birth.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

If you seriously want to stop people from physically hurting one another, it might be a better idea to chop everyone's hands off at birth.

Or how about mandatory Anger management classes from grade 1 to 12?

 

[Jay]

Sure, why not. Chopped off hands, lips sealed shut, reeducation classes and lobotomies for all. I think I just described the Leftie utopia.....

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

Sure, why not. Chopped off hands, lips sealed shut, reeducation classes and lobotomies for all. I think I just described the Leftie utopia.....

I don't mind left, but isn't that just a teeny bit of an exxageration. :lol:

The same could be said for the Far (really, really far) right, except that the lobotomies would be more subliminal and controlled to make the person think it was their own choice, and of course fear would keep mouths shut.

I guess the far left and far right are more similar than we thought. Anyone for the middle?

 

[Jay]

Yes, I'm exaggerating.


I like the middle too, but the Canadian leftist doesn't, hence the current healthcare system, and the gun issue we currently face.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

Would you agree with the concept that "No guns are better" if we were confidently able to stop the flow of illegal weapons into the country?

Answer- I totally agree. Fantasy is great but each day we wake to the real world. Guns are a reality. They will not disappear with legislation. The U.S. just signed a bill limiting the ability of victims of gun violence from suing the manufacturers of guns. So those who crank out the weapons can profit while not being held, in any way, accountable for the use of the product.

In the mid-seventies a gun-running operation was busted in Nova Scotia. The runners had off-loaded tons of handguns into a cave on an island. From there they distributed the guns to Montreal, and Toronto. The bust did not happen early in the operation and many weapons filtered across Canada. I could never prove it but I still believe that the manufacturer was privy to the operation, just as the cigarette manufacturers were privy to the smuggling of cigarettes into Canada.

When you have a nation, such as the U.S. modelling to the world that overpowering force wins wars, and it does not matter the reason for a war, nobody is going to challenge you if you have the bigger guns, then this mentality filters down to the street-level bullies. When you have RCMP officers pepperspraying orderly protesters under political direction, when you have OPP under political direction, sniping an unarmed native occupying ancesteral land, when you become sensitized to the realities of the world then you may likely sleep better at night knowing you have some personal protection.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

Hey Colpy, can you back up those stats outside of NRA publications?

I agree they offer food for thought.

Actually, most of the above stats are from an article in Guns and Ammo, so I imagine you aren't going to accept that as a source.

That's fine. Here is some reading from people not directly associated with the "gun lobby".

John Lott, who is a economics professor at the University of Chicago School of law, has done extensive research, written many articles, and two books on gun control.

http://www.tsra.com/Lott5.htm

Here's a taste:

To provide a more systematic answer, I published a book on gun control that analyzed FBI crime statistics for all 3,054 American counties from 1977 to 1994 as well as extensive information on accidental gun deaths and suicides. The study examined states that changed from discretionary to objective concealed-handgun laws. Thirty-one states now have these "right-to-carry" rules.

The findings were dramatic. The more people who obtain permits over time, the more violent crime rates decline. After concealed handgun laws have been in effect for five years, murders declined by at least 15 percent, rapes by 9 percent and robberies by 11 percent. These are the drops over and above the recent national declines and after such things as changing arrest and conviction rates, demographics, and other gun-control laws have been accounted for. The reductions in violent crime are greatest in the most crime-prone, most urban areas. Women and blacks gained by far the most from this ability to protect themselves.

The benefits of concealed handguns are not limited to those who carry them or use them in self-defense. That these weapons are concealed keeps criminals uncertain as to whether potential victims will be able to defend themselves with lethal force.

What about the concern in DFL's ad about "allowing virtually anyone to carry a concealed gun"? The evidence in other states indicates that those willing to go through the permit process are extremely law-abiding. Permits are revoked for any reason very rarely, and most of these revocations have nothing to do with improper use of a firearm.

Concerns that permit holders would shoot others after traffic accidents or angry-drivers-cut-off-in-traffic shootings have proven unfounded. Despite millions of people now holding permits and some states having issued permits for as long as 60 years, only one permit holder has ever used a concealed handgun after a traffic accident, and that case involved self-defense.

No permit holders have ever shot at, let alone killed, a police officer; instead, permit holders have on occasion saved the lives of police officers who were being attacked by criminals. I found no evidence that concealed handgun laws caused either accidental gun deaths or suicides to increase.

OOPs

Called away

Google Gary Kleck as well.

Later

 

[Reverend Blair]

CONCEALED HANDGUN FRAUD: EXPOSING JOHN LOTT