The Failings of the Modern Left

[Northboy]

I would rather live under Saddam than under today's daily car bombings and religious crusades.

Canada doesn't help oust NK because there isn't much to be gained except more chaos. What would be the end game? The political dynamics in the region? Would we go there to enforce democracy? Where will the resistance come from in the aftermath? How many years would troops need to be in North Korea to fight that resistance? How many caskets would have to be flown home and for how long? Just what gets accomplished?

And would it be a Just war??

Kings should discern the outcome before they go to battle, including the cause and effect.. and cost in terms of their people..I compliment you on your wise discernment....

As for Left and Right politics; We should strive for the centre, taking all aspects of the human experience into account..That's just good stewardship....But keep in mind that we are going from the Industrial Age to the Age of Ideas, where the realities of what is called "work" are already changing..As such the centre is a moving target...Be flexible.

 

[L Gilbert]

Seems to me that the basis for socialism is concern for one's brother, next door neighbor, the guy at the other end of the country. Because the programs of socialists fail isn't because of the concern for so-and-so, it's because human's aren't perfect o they can't design perfect things. Same thing for capitalism, good idea, but because humans are involved, it doesn't work perfectly.
"In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism (a form of socialism), it's the opposite" - J K Galbraith

It's why we get dictators like Juniorbush, Stalin, Hussein, Chavez, Harper, etc.

 

[darkbeaver]

Ummm, I guess you still haven't got the premice of the thread at hand.

As you are correct, the socialist benefits that we enjoy today, were born of a socialist movement, their time has come and gone. Now they kill manufacturers. Hence GM, Ford, Crysler, all in trouble. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and so on, enjoying the lions share, sans socialist unions. I wonder why that is? Oh ya, there is nothing good in the modern socialist left elitest agenda. I worked for a division of Honda for seven years. Our wages were as good as the big three, our benefits as well, but what we were better at then them is productivity and quality. Hard work for fair pay. Something the socialist elitest fails to grasp. Much like your failure to grasp my position, though I have stated it quite clear several times. Troubling are the vision problems the left are experiencing.

Since you missed the point the first time.

The Democrats held the Whitehouse and therefore had the opportunity to change the foriegn policy and the laws of the US or trump the bad acts of their right wing predecessors, yet they did not, so how is not hypocritical for them to sit back and denouce the actions of the right???

You invoke the American democratic Party as an insturment of the left and that in of itself reports your whole understanding of the left, you have none, only the American right refers to the democrats as leftys, leftys know better. The American democratic party ceased to speak left decades ago, your wages at Honda, Toyota and Nissan are still because of the work of the labour union movement.You speak of the socialists movements time as having come and gone, are poverty disease and ignorance gone? A fair days pay for a fair days work is and always has been the hallmark of the labour movement. Find me a benevolent capitalist enterprise that fairly deals with it's workforce without the obligeing work of the labour movement. There hasn't been an increase in the real wages of north american workers since the early 70s, and you think the labour movements time has come and gone, think again.:laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::wave:

 

[darkbeaver]

Yes, but the difference between rebuilding Iraq and the IMF is where the tax dollars stem from.

Social programs tend fail at some point anyway, so what's the point?

How you been Bev?

The tax dollars come from the capitalist poor. Is there another source of tax revenue?

Social programs fail when they are not maintained not because they are inherantly doomed to failure.

I,v been OK Said1 how about you.:love9:

 

[Said1]

The tax dollars come from the capitalist poor. Is there another source of tax revenue?

Social programs fail when they are not maintained not because they are inherantly doomed to failure.

I,v been OK Said1 how about you.:love9:

We're not rebuilding Iraq, but we are funding the IMF, which was my point.

Social programs are never maintained properly. I wonder why that is?



Glad to hear you're doing well, I'm fine c'ept for this damn toothache. I'd certainly love to visit a publically funded dentist, but alas I live in Ontario, not Quebec.:sad10:

Read and good books lately?

 

[darkbeaver]

And would it be a Just war??

Kings should discern the outcome before they go to battle, including the cause and effect.. and cost in terms of their people..I compliment you on your wise discernment....

As for Left and Right politics; We should strive for the centre, taking all aspects of the human experience into account..That's just good stewardship....But keep in mind that we are going from the Industrial Age to the Age of Ideas, where the realities of what is called "work" are already changing..As such the centre is a moving target...Be flexible.

The realitys of work changeing?Water is water, dust is dust, work is work how can a fact change, age of ideas, give me a break. What praytell is work changing into? The center is the squishy mushy smelly stuff ground to snot between two ideologys, the forces of evil (rightism) and the forces of good (leftism). The center stands on the pillars of compromise and surrender.:laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::wave:

 

[darkbeaver]

We're not rebuilding Iraq, but we are funding the IMF, which was my point.

Social programs are never maintained properly. I wonder why that is?



Glad to hear you're doing well, I'm fine c'ept for this damn toothache. I'd certainly love to visit a publically funded dentist, but alas I live in Ontario, not Quebec.

Ready and good books lately? :sad10:

Yeah I did, you suggested Sauls, The Collapse of Globalism, thanks for the tip.
Late Victorian Holocaust--------------Mike Davis
The New American Militarism-------------Bacevich
Bush in Babylon---------Tariq Ali
and I'm trying to get Marx's Das Kapital a Biography by Francis Wheen I think.

Cough up some titles and I'll see ifin I kin findum.:wave::love9::wave:

Sorry about your fang, hope the pains not to bad.

 

[Said1]

Yeah I did, you suggested Sauls, The Collapse of Globalism, thanks for the tip.
Late Victorian Holocaust--------------Mike Davis
The New American Militarism-------------Bacevich
Bush in Babylon---------Tariq Ali
and I'm trying to get Marx's Das Kapital a Biography by Francis Wheen I think.

Cough up some titles and I'll see ifin I kin findum.:wave::love9::wave:

Sorry about your fang, hope the pains not to bad.

I'm no fan of Saul, but I like a man who inspires my wrath and he's at the top of my "A" list. And I have a feeling you'll curl up with Das Kapital if you get your hands on a copy.

I just started reading Globalization and it's discontents by Joseph E. Stiglitz. So far so good.

 

[darkbeaver]

I'm no fan of Saul, but I like a man who inspires my wrath and he's at the top of my "A" list. And I have a feeling you'll curl up with Das Kapital if you get your hands on a copy.

I just started reading Globalization and it's discontents by Joseph E. Stiglitz. So far so good.

Globalization and it's discontents was a good read, Stiglitz as I remember had not a dissimilar view of the matter as Saul. Of course the neo-liberal globalist experiment has crashed and burned, every-one runs from the IMF like it were the black death, as I remember Stiglitz covers the Russian disaster and others. It's arround here somewhere I;d read it again if I could find it. I was reading the other day the Africans are cutting better deals with the Chinese than they can get with the IMF.
:wave::love9::wave:

 

[talloola]

I like McCain, but he isn't a candidate right now.

He doesn't seem very diplomatic to me, and right now he seems to be stuck somewhere.

The evangelical "dudes" don't like him,"I couldn't care less about them",' but they have a big
voting base in the republican party.

And, anyone who has turned against the iraq "thing" is against him, because he supports
bush's ideas re: iraq. Not sure where he stands on abortion, isn't he pro choice?

 

[Toro]

Don't pay your taxes, don't fund educaction don't invest in your military don't pretend that the system of economics undergirding the great America way of life isn't critically dependent on social investments.... You think that Americans aren't socialist.....

Major red herring.

ALL industrialized nations are mixed economies. The only matter is degree.

It's the Left, especially in Canada, who likes to highlight America as a so-called brutal, dog-eat-dog society.

 

[Toro]

The tax dollars come from the capitalist poor. Is there another source of tax revenue?

The richest 1% in America pay 35% of the taxes.

That's another source.

 

[Toro]

We're not rebuilding Iraq, but we are funding the IMF, which was my point.

The IMF is, like, sooooo 1980s.

80% of IMF loans go to one country - Turkey!

The Left likes to use it as a bug-a-boo, but the fact is that, after the collapse of Betton-Woods, the IMF is, was and will be a bit player in the global economy.

 

[Curiosity]

Toro

I think the U.S. has a "cleansing" affect on Canadians.

 

[Toro]

I'm no fan of Saul, but I like a man who inspires my wrath and he's at the top of my "A" list. And I have a feeling you'll curl up with Das Kapital if you get your hands on a copy.

I just started reading Globalization and it's discontents by Joseph E. Stiglitz. So far so good.

Read these when you're finished.

Johan Norberg, In Defense of Global Capitalism (2003)
Douglas Irwin, Free Trade Under Fire, 2nd ed. (2005)
Martin Wolf, Why Globalization Works (2004)
Russell Roberts, The Choice, 3rd ed (2006)
Tyler Cowen, In Praise of Commercial Culture (1998 )
Thomas Larsson, The Race to the Top (2001)
Jagdish Bhagwati In Defense of Globalization

Norberg's is probably the easiest, so that's the one I'd start with.

 

[Toro]

Toro

I think the U.S. has a "cleansing" affect on Canadians.

Sure does.

 

[Said1]

Read these when you're finished.

Johan Norberg, In Defense of Global Capitalism (2003)
Douglas Irwin, Free Trade Under Fire, 2nd ed. (2005)
Martin Wolf, Why Globalization Works (2004)
Russell Roberts, The Choice, 3rd ed (2006)
Tyler Cowen, In Praise of Commercial Culture (1998 )
Thomas Larsson, The Race to the Top (2001)
Jagdish Bhagwati In Defense of Globalization

Norberg's is probably the easiest, so that's the one I'd start with.

Thanks, I'll keep those in mind. I might look into "in praise of commercial culture" sooner than later. Sounds very intriguing.


So. This is just between you and me, but do think the Beav has a big crush on me, or what? :angel9:

 

[darkbeaver]

The richest 1% in America pay 35% of the taxes.

That's another source.

Numbers, charts, statistics, pies, and coloured lights,can you show us? I believe you're hiding something.:laughing7::laughing7::wave:

 

[darkbeaver]

Thanks, I'll keep those in mind. I might look into "in praise of commercial culture" sooner than later. Sounds very intriguing.


So. This is just between you and me, but do think the Beav has a big crush on me, or what? :angel9:

AW shucks how could you tell, I thought I was hiding it.:laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::love9::laughing7::wave:

 

[Said1]

AW shucks how could you tell, I thought I was hiding it.:laughing7::laughing7::laughing7::love9::laughing7::wave:

I better bow out now as I've been into the sauce.

Talk to you after Das Kapital, if yer lucky I might just mail you my copy. :wave: