The embarrassment of the apostle

[Cliffy]

This Is Mohammad

I found this interesting site. Not sure if this is a translation of the Koran or just a history of Mohammad and Islam. I skimmed trough it. I plan to get into it more deeply but what I was put off by is all the wars and blood shed that Mohammad was involved in. Doesn't sound like anything I would want to be associated with. I will dig deeper but so far I'm not impressed.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

first of all, i am sorry to have been a bit touchy yesterday but sometimes prejudices make me mad. Getting angry with prejudices, i have also gained some prejuducies that foreigns read just critics or watch tv and learn the things about Islam in that way but really , most of the non-muslim do that exept you and some.

the reason why i think your post is a bit unreasonable is that you try to convince as if you saw everything. i feel it necessary to investigate more about even a WRITTEN book( Koran) and be aware of being far away any rumours and comments which would make my mind change in a unpleasant way conradictory with my ideas, the contrast you can talk easly about a story TOLD as if you were in that time .

please , don't be so know-all, even if you were a prophet, or a saint, you shouldn't trust on your studies so much or claim that you know everything better than anyone. i don't try to say that i am better , we don't know that but the clear one is that religion is an issue having to do with faith and perception of the universe with some sources to be said as a guidance, not some subjective surveys.
you don't have to like Islam or anything else and i don't try to show that we are in better way beliving in Islam may be you are right, who knows? but i chosed a path for me eliminating the others and think Islam more reasonable than the others with my own free desire finding something which most of muslims don't know about( if you are interested in the reason why i chose Islam , i can explain, really)

i also studied about religions. if there weren't Islam, i would be a Samanist not others.

The last words to all, please try to seek without prejudices as if you would believe(then go on not believing) ,then you can see what you may miss out or you can feel really sure of what you are talking about .

First of all - I've never claimed to know everything but I have issues with others assuming that I haven't tried to find out about different religions just because I disagree with them.

You did your research and it lead you to become a Muslim. I left Christianity because I doubted and that lead me to actually find out about the religion I had been raised in. Having said that I also delved into other faiths - you found things in Islam that appealed to you, I found things that did the opposite to me. to each their own.

And why shouldn't I trust my studies? I've read things that were pro and that were con and that were neutral. I don't base what I think on surveys, rumours or the news (that's about as unreliable as anything can be . I also look at the world around me.

Here is something you wrote, "i chosed a path for me eliminating the others and think Islam more reasonable than the others with my own free desire". Obviously you did your research and that is what lead you to your conclusion. so why would you deny me that same right - to do my research and come to the conclusion that feels right to me? Just because my conclusions aren't yours? I don't believe that there is one universal faith. I believe that just as we are all different, we all come to that place differently - and yes, I believe Atheism and pantheism have a place at the table as well.

You tell me to 'seek without prejudice' well I do my best to do that. You seem to be upset because what I've found isn't what you found - almost as if you feel that because we have both searched we should have reached the same conclusion.

I have a passion for history, when I look at the Talmud and the Bible and the Quran, I can't divorce their writings from where they sit in time. I can't ignore when they were written, how they were written or by whom. Words used then mean different things now- people used their words differently. If archeology and historical facts tell me something, and then I have to factor that into my decision making. Some may want to re-write the history of the Jews and Christians all they want, but history tells me differently - no matter what the Prophet says. and if you want to call me a 'know-it-all' - I can't apologize for having knowledge that you might find distasteful
As far as the prejudices of non-Muslims? I'd be a fool to deny that they're there, but I've seen that same prejudice coming from Muslims who know absolutely nothing about either Christianity or Judaism and yet will condemn them both. It's a shame for both sides, don't you think?

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Then the prophet decided and determined to forbear patiently all that, and said: My Lord, I shall forbear patiently their acts and words;

so God revealed to him the glad-tidings of victory over his enemies the idolaters and disbelievers:

(And We let the people [: the Children of Israel] that were abased [by Pharaoh] inherit all the east and the west of the land which We had blessed [with much trees and fruits]; ​

and perfectly was fulfilled the most fair promise of your Lord [O Mohammed] upon the Children of Israel, for that they endured patiently; ​

and We destroyed utterly the [idols and statues] that Pharaoh and his people had made and what ceilings they had been building [above those idols.])​

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran aya 7: 137
وَأَوْرَثْنَا الْقَوْمَ الَّذِينَ كَانُواْ يُسْتَضْعَفُونَ مَشَارِقَ الأَرْضِ وَمَغَارِبَهَا الَّتِي بَارَكْنَا فِيهَا وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ الْحُسْنَى عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَآئِيلَ بِمَا صَبَرُواْ وَدَمَّرْنَا مَا كَانَ يَصْنَعُ فِرْعَوْنُ وَقَوْمُهُ وَمَا كَانُواْ يَعْرِشُونَ​

Therefore the prophet knew for certain that he will be victorious and his enemies will be defeated.​

The interpretation is according to the late interpreter of the Quran and Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

http://www.quran-ayat.com/​

And I think your mentor Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly was wrong in his interpretation of the Bible.

 

[eanassir]

And I think your mentor Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly was wrong in his interpretation of the Bible.

I am about certain that such people that denied and rebelled against their own prophets: Moses, Aaron, Elia or Elijah and the others; such people how can they believe in an Arab prophet? ​

(Have you [Muslims] any hope that they [Jews] may believe [and resign] to you [: convert and become Muslims] ​

when a party of them used to listen to the word of God [that He inscribed on the stone for Moses and the other instructions], then they used to pervert it knowingly [by changing its meaning], ​

after having understood it? [And they rush into disobeying God and their prophets: Moses and the others; ​

so if these acts they do to their prophets, how will they believe and obey an Arab prophet [: Mohammed]; therefore don't hope about their guiding and converting.] )

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran aya 2: 75​

أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm
Then from the list of Contents, click on:
Their Rebellion against Their Prophet
​

 

[AnnaG]

The Wright brothers did not invent the aeroplane! It was George Cayley. The Wrights were poseurs!

*shrugs* Beside the point. Were they or were they not ridiculed?

 

[Goober]

I am about certain that such people that denied and rebelled against their own prophets: Moses, Aaron, Elia or Elijah and the others; such people how can they believe in an Arab prophet? ​

(Have you [Muslims] any hope that they [Jews] may believe [and resign] to you [: convert and become Muslims] ​

when a party of them used to listen to the word of God [that He inscribed on the stone for Moses and the other instructions], then they used to pervert it knowingly [by changing its meaning], ​

after having understood it? [And they rush into disobeying God and their prophets: Moses and the others; ​

so if these acts they do to their prophets, how will they believe and obey an Arab prophet [: Mohammed]; therefore don't hope about their guiding and converting.] )

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran aya 2: 75​

أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm
Then from the list of Contents, click on:
Their Rebellion against Their Prophet​

So where and what did Jesus do according to the Quaran - was he crucified? - and what is promised upon his return?

 

[Downhome_Woman]

I am about certain that such people that denied and rebelled against their own prophets: Moses, Aaron, Elia or Elijah and the others; such people how can they believe in an Arab prophet? ​

(Have you [Muslims] any hope that they [Jews] may believe [and resign] to you [: convert and become Muslims] ​

when a party of them used to listen to the word of God [that He inscribed on the stone for Moses and the other instructions], then they used to pervert it knowingly [by changing its meaning], ​

after having understood it? [And they rush into disobeying God and their prophets: Moses and the others; ​

so if these acts they do to their prophets, how will they believe and obey an Arab prophet [: Mohammed]; therefore don't hope about their guiding and converting.] )

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran aya 2: 75​

أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm
Then from the list of Contents, click on:
Their Rebellion against Their Prophet
​

I don't know about 'such' people, but me? I didn't deny or rebel - I just didn't believe. Maybe you believe that someone should stay in a faith that they don't believe - I don't - that would be LYING. You know what LYING is don't you?
I actually do believe in the prophethood of Moses And Elijah. Aaron? He may have been the first High Priest and tradition calls him A Lover of Peace - but prophet? Nope.And Mohammed? I don't believe he's a prophet either - let alone 'The' prophet. Why? because I don't. and you can force people to convert - both Islam and Christianity have been great at that, but you can't force belief.

 

[Goober]

SelinA question on Islam - Do believers in Islam belive that a man or women's fate is set the day they were born - That they are fated by God to either go to heaven or not - Regardless of how they live their life -

 

[Spade]

SelinA question on Islam - Do believers in Islam belive that a man or women's fate is set the day they were born - That they are fated by God to either go to heaven or not - Regardless of how they live their life -

Goober, the notion of justification by faith and not by good works is a fundamentalist Christian notion.

 

[Goober]

Goober, the notion of justification by faith and not by good works is a fundamentalist Christian notion.

SpadeYou can have a erson that rails day in out about the faith - say a rich man that does nothing to help - Guess where god would send him. I believe God judges all -

 

[Spade]

*shrugs* Beside the point. Were they or were they not ridiculed?

I don't know; I must be younger than you.

 

[Spade]

SpadeYou can have a erson that rails day in out about the faith - say a rich man that does nothing to help - Guess where god would send him. I believe God judges all -

Then, with all respect, address that question to men of all faiths.

 

[eanassir]

So where and what did Jesus do according to the Quaran - was he crucified? - and what is promised upon his return?

Jesus Christ in the Quran​

Jesus was an apostle of God, like many other apostles that had passed away before him; he invited people to worship God alone without associate or equal, and he did not glorify himself but glorified his Lord Who had created him and sent him to the Children of Israel as an apostle.​

Jesus Christ - salam be to him - was a son of man, not any son of God: God is the Eternal and has not any son or wife.​

About his second coming, there is a prophetic tradition that "The son of Mary is about to come down [from heaven] to be a just arbiter among you."​

These ayat are in the Quran 4: 156-159​

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا . بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا . وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا​

The explanation:
(And because of: that they [: Jews, again] disbelieved [in Jesus, in addition to heir disbelief in their prophets], and [because of] that they uttered against Mary [his mother] a grave false charge [accusing her with adultery].​

And [because of] their saying [in a way of boasting and mockery]: “We slew the Messiah [the Christ] Jesus, son of Mary, the apostle of God”;​

But they did not slay him, nor crucified him, but a similitude1 was made for them, and those who differ therein are full of doubt thereof, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow; they slew him not for certain.​

But God raised him up to Him; God is All-Mighty, All-Wise. ​

And there shall be none of the People of the Bible [Jews and Christians] but shall believe in him before his death*; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.)
-------------------------------------------------------
1 They crucified Barabbas: another man like Jesus in shape: Pilate crucified Barabbas who was in jail for some crimes; so Pilate put masks on this man and crucified him and told Jews that he had crucified Jesus, while he released Jesus after telling him to hide himself from Jews and Jesus went to Syria to die later on near Damascus. And thus was Jesus saved from the plight of his enemies.
* [i.e. that he was not crucified, and that he was seen alive, three days after the event (when they crucified another man that was like him.)
Following that event by some period of time, he died at his hour of appointment, and his soul ascended to heaven, to the paradises, in the neighborhood of his Lord.]​

Their Stand Against the Christ​

 

[AnnaG]

I don't know; I must be younger than you.

lol or not as good a googler.

The Force Behind the Wright Brothers | Quazen

 

[AnnaG]

Anyway, so who is the authority that says these people are apostles? Themselves?

I could say, "well, this god told me that I am its messenger, so that makes me an apostle." Who can prove otherwise?

 

[Goober]

Then, with all respect, address that question to men of all faiths.

I speak often with a young man from Somalia - yes he is Muslim - and we have a differing opinion - His faith states that his fate is pre determined - I believe that all men are born with free will - the ability to choose - what you do or do not do is what you shall be judged on - and if i am wrong i will be told why - I hope anyways - Many versions of the Christian faith have the belief that your fate is pre determined - I am UCC and not sure if they do or not - But I do -

And yes I have addressed that to people of differing faiths - I meet a lot of people, many times over and from all parts of the world - mostly - and so the opportunity to learn from them what they believe is a great chance to learn for and about myself.

 

[Goober]

eanassir
They crucified Barabbas: another man like Jesus in shape: Pilate crucified Barabbas who was in jail for some crimes; so Pilate put masks on this man and crucified him and told Jews that he had crucified Jesus, while he released Jesus after telling him to hide himself from Jews and Jesus went to Syria to die later on near Damascus. And thus was Jesus saved from the plight of his enemies.
* [i.e. that he was not crucified, and that he was seen alive, three days after the event (when they crucified another man that was like him.)
Following that event by some period of time, he died at his hour of appointment, and his soul ascended to heaven, to the paradises, in the neighborhood of his Lord.]

A number of Muslim scholars would disagree with your stating that Jesus went to Syria - Would that be correct?

 

[MHz]

Anyway, so who is the authority that says these people are apostles? Themselves?

I could say, "well, this god told me that I am its messenger, so that makes me an apostle." Who can prove otherwise?

Do you mean why would the people who listened to them or the people who only have their words to read?
The ones who met them in person would have also witnesses then do things as a sign that God had sent them. Essentially they were believers (that God had sent them) before the message was even being given.

 

[eanassir]

eanassir
They crucified Barabbas: another man like Jesus in shape: Pilate crucified Barabbas who was in jail for some crimes; so Pilate put masks on this man and crucified him and told Jews that he had crucified Jesus, while he released Jesus after telling him to hide himself from Jews and Jesus went to Syria to die later on near Damascus. And thus was Jesus saved from the plight of his enemies.
* [i.e. that he was not crucified, and that he was seen alive, three days after the event (when they crucified another man that was like him.)
Following that event by some period of time, he died at his hour of appointment, and his soul ascended to heaven, to the paradises, in the neighborhood of his Lord.]

A number of Muslim scholars would disagree with your stating that Jesus went to Syria - Would that be correct?

I am not concerned with the opinion of Muslims, Christians or others; I should be concerned only with the truth.

Most people belonging to all religions are wrong in their opinions, false in their doctrines, guilty with their conduct.

Most of people are idolaters and associaters and imitators of their fathers and grandfathers.

(Have they not pondered the word [of God in the Quran], or has there come to them [in the Quran] that which had not come to their fathers, the ancients?​

Or have they not recognized their apostle [Mohammed the truthful], and so have they denied him?​

Or do they say: "He is possessed by demons"? ​

Actually, he [Mohammed] has brought them the truth, but most of them are averse from the truth.)​

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran ayat 23: 68-70​

أَفَلَمْ يَدَّبَّرُوا الْقَوْلَ أَمْ جَاءهُم مَّا لَمْ يَأْتِ آبَاءهُمُ الْأَوَّلِينَ .أَمْ لَمْ يَعْرِفُوا رَسُولَهُمْ فَهُمْ لَهُ مُنكِرُونَ . أَمْ يَقُولُونَ بِهِ جِنَّةٌ بَلْ جَاءهُم بِالْحَقِّ وَأَكْثَرُهُمْ لِلْحَقِّ كَارِهُونَ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/​

N. B. many Muslims narrate the tradition that Jesus will come down [his second coming] near the white minarette of the mosque of Damascus !!??

The interpreter of the Quran and the Bible said: Jesus was buried near Damascus on the Qusseon mountain on a hill called the Rabwa hill, where there is a small mosque called the Rabwa mosque, near to which there are many small water springs and one of these water springs is somewhat big that it makes a small water stream.

So in my personal opinion: if Jesus is to be resurrected in his second coming (like Ezerias and his donkey that died for 100 years then were revived and resurrected);

The conditions essential for creating man and animal.​

then Jesus will come out of his grave, then it is logical that he will come to Damascus which will be the nearest city to him;

and there he will confirm the Mahdi and pray behind him: the Mahdi will lead the Christ in prayer to tell other people that the one to be followed is the Mahdi.

And the Christ will kill the impostor (the false Christ?) and show people the blood of the impostor on his spear. But this is only a prophetic narration; which is not in the Quran.

 

[eanassir]

Correction:
The one that died for 100 years then was resurrected was Azarias son of Osaias.

And to see about the safety of Jesus from his enemies, then his burial near Damascus, see here:
A Call to Christians
[By:] Apostle of the Christ