The Church is not the Enemy

[Shiva]

The website you're quoting from was inspired by a person who had already determined in his opinion based on his anecdotal experience that religion is a cause of conflict. The website then goes on to attempt to establish and document this pre-determined conclusion.

One would have to be blinded by faith not to see that for themselves though...

Can religion be used as a justification for conflict? Yes. Is this ability to use religion as a justification for conflict unique to religion? No. If the ability to use religion as a justification for conflict is not unique to religion, can it be said that religion is the root of conflict? No. What is the ultimate purpose of conflicts that are guised in religious overtones? Money and power. Religion is an instrument used to achieve a goal, and the motivation or cause is human greed and selfishness.

So he mentions that there a huge number of other important factors at work, and proceeds to label religion as the cause of conflict? Sorry, too biased to be believeable. As I mentioned before, religion is often a social tool used to force others to conform to a particular behaviour or way of life due to its unquestionability as a perfectly inspired revelation, that unquestionability making it perfect for forcing a particular view on the people, but the end goal is political. When economic, racial, ethnic, and other factors are all recognised as a part of the conflicts this website goes on to mention, zeroing in on religious tolerance as a solution to complex social conflict is not likely to be efficacious in removing inherently non-religious problems (they're not religious problems if they're ethnic, racial, economic, etc).

BBC World Service -- Racism and Relgion

Doesn't leave much room for non-religious problems, does it?

The article states:

"In Jesus Christ, wrote the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Galatians, there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free.

The idea that everyone of whatever race or background is equal in the sight of God and should be treated as such by fellow Christians, was revolutionary at the time. And it remains a revolutionary idea for the church today, with worship in many countries still divided along racial or ethnic lines. ".

According to your source, Christianity does not condone or justify the racial and ethnic divisions witnessed in segregated church services in South Africa. That means that if the people there were following their religion, this racism and segregation would not be occuring. They are actually living as they do, with segregated church services, due to a legacy of a government that created classes of citizenry with lower or higher privilege based on race. The divisions in the church are not based on religion, but politics, and religious principles are being used to overcome that politically based segregation that has manifested itself even in religious institutions.

The article then goes on to describe how there was segregation in Church services between the Maori in New Zealand and white New Zealanders. Considering we know that all British colonies had the ideal of 'white man's burden' at the time these missionaries first came to New Zealand, and that that policy segregated whites from others, and considering that such segregation is not justifiable in Christianity, we have a situation once again where religious institutions are fostering segregation based on political principles, in religious institutions. Existing segregation of that type is a legacy of times gone by.

The article goes on to consider similar situations. The article displays how politics surrounding ethnicity are manifested in Christian churches, and how Christians are using religious principles to overcome prejudices based on worldly and non-religious ideas. The article illustrates how religion is affected by politics, and how religious institutions are often used to further political goals.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Can religion be used as a justification for conflict? Yes. Is this ability to use religion as a justification for conflict unique to religion? No. If the ability to use religion as a justification for conflict is not unique to religion, can it be said that religion is the root of conflict? No.

I don't recall making the claim that religion is the root of conflict...I was merely illustrating that throughout history, and even today, religion plays an integral part in most conflicts...and sometimes it's not so obvious...

What is the ultimate purpose of conflicts that are guised in religious overtones? Money and power. Religion is an instrument used to achieve a goal, and the motivation or cause is human greed and selfishness.

So does religious fervor play no part in that equation? Laying some smack down for their flavour of god? I beg to differ...I think that conquering your enemies in the name of God appeals to as many people today as it did 800 years ago...

There are many methods one can employ to defeat an enemy though...and this is all too evident when social and economic policies of governments are crafted to conform to church doctrine...and punish those that don't conform...

I too believe that religion is the ultimate tool of social engineering, but I can't bring myself to hold the faithful blameless...one must take responsibility for what they believe...and the history of religion throughout the world is one of blood and tragedy...

...and yes, I too believe that it is human nature to engage in conflict...and that if it wasn't religion it may well be something else...but having a banner of God to rally behind does not help matters in the least...

I believe that once humanity can lay down the infantile notion of gods, then we can move forward as a species, because quite frankly, their two dimensional thinking is really a pain in the ass of progress...

 

[zenfisher]

War is about money and land. Religion is just one tool used to get the masses to lay down their lives for greed.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

War is about money and land. Religion is just one tool used to get the masses to lay down their lives for greed.

a truism. And the use of the word "sacrifice" to make it all seem "noble"... when in reality it is regression. ( & murder / destruction )

 

[JomZ]

Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

War is about money and land. Religion is just one tool used to get the masses to lay down their lives for greed.

a truism. And the use of the word "sacrifice" to make it all seem "noble"... when in reality it is regression. ( & murder / destruction )

It is also the nature of humans to be violent considering our hunter, carnivorous instincts. Unfortunately societies and civilization are cyclical in nature, and rise and fall at will.

Another more notable tool for convincing the masses to go to war was the power of the lords in the middle ages. Barons and Knights controlled the lands of Europe, and when the King decided to go to war the peasant men on these lands were given a choice fight or get kicked off. So most men would go to placate their master, and save their families.

Interesting side note:
The movie "Kingdom of Heaven" was released the other day on DvD, which seems too relate somewhat to this thread. Its not the best movie, but it did try too illustrate how religion was used by many different groups of people. It was mainly the moderate Christians vs. Hardline Christians. The accuracy of the movie I know is doubtful.

 

[p106_peppy]

I am truly glad that in Canada we have a church that has influenced political policy.

Ummm...no we haven't...well not in the last 50 years or so anyway...

Recognition of same sex marriage does a dandy job of invalidating your assertions...a law that was passed despite the religious beliefs of the Prime Minister...and I say kudos to him for taking that stand...I know of leaders of other countries that don't have that fortitude to act in the best interests of all...right Nascar...

Um, yes we have.

Freedom to choose ones own religion? believe it or not is a christian idea.

Equality for all races? Supported by christianity.

Gender Equality? yup, christian

 

[peapod]

Gender Equality 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

Ehm...than how come there are no women in the kingdom of popedum??? All I see are old men dressed up in costumes, wearing paper hats, guess it keeps the rain and sun off. Yup, just a big old boys club of fat old men...waving wands

 

[p106_peppy]

yes, but where in the bible does it say that a women cannot be pope? Where in the bible does it even say that there should be a pope?

Having an exclusively male pope is a secular ideal that has become entrenched in the catholic church.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

Most of us on the left have grown up and are past the believing in fairytales stage, in our lives.

Religion is behind every major conflict in the world - past, present and future.

This has got to be the most panoramically obtuse statement I have read on the forum so far. Show me proof - not opinion - that the American Civil War and the Viet Nam War were based on religion.

Uncle

PS: It's MONEY - not religion.

Religion in the Civil War: The Northern Side

First, the churches emphasized that the Union had to be preserved because of the special place that America occupied in world history. With its republican institutions, democratic ideals, and Christian values, the United States supposedly stood in the vanguard of civilization's forward march.

Next, Christian ministers often portrayed the war for the Union in millennial terms. Drawing on the imagery of the twentieth chapter of Revelation and on other portions of the Bible describing events near the close of history, they suggested that a Northern victory might prepare the way for the Kingdom of God on earth

Religion may not of been the very start of it,(BUT MORE THAN LIKELY DID) but it influenced and had an impact on it.

Reguarding Vietnam, US went to war because of the communist's over there. May not be directly tied to religion but since at the time communists were godless people and it was 11 years after "under god" was added to American pledge to prove to the "evil commies" americans were good "christian folk". So indirectly it had religion behind it. And since most American presidents pretty well incorperate their religious beliefs into their decisions and polices, yes religion was partly involved.

PS: It's MONEY - not religion.

Its money from religion. Brainwashing people. Religion=Control.

BTW- Where was your so called god during, Holocaust, 9/11, USS Cole, Oklahoma city bombing, Katrina or any other natural or man made diaster? mmmm Maybe its time you realize organized religion is nothing more than a cult that takes members money to pursue their own political interests, in the name of a non existant man in the sky.

Well, that was utterly pointless. It illustrates how desperate you are to justify a stupid comment. At least have the guts to say you were wrong. Don't magnify it with more ignorance.

Uncle

 

[Twila]

RE: The Church is not the

BTW- Where was your so called god during, Holocaust, 9/11, USS Cole, Oklahoma city bombing, Katrina or any other natural or man made diaster?

Clarify please. What has happened lately that's not man made? Katrina may have been caused by global warming, but the location of new orleans is entirely man made.

 

[no1important]

RE: The Church is not the

Whats to clarify, these people try to impose a non existent god on us and if he exists as they claim where the hell is he when diasters strike? He has never made an appearence since time began.

 

[Hard-Luck Henry]

Some British insurers refuse to pay out on "acts of god". I'm not sure how they prove he did it in court. 8O

 

[Twila]

RE: The Church is not the

Whats to clarify, these people try to impose a non existent god on us and if he exists as they claim where the hell is he when diasters strike? He has never made an appearence since time began.

Funny, but I wonder if they feel that your trying to take away their god.

 

[p106_peppy]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

Whats to clarify, these people try to impose a non existent god on us

Well, you have a right to believe there is a no god, I have a right to believe there is. When we die, if you're right, we both lose. But if I'm right you still lose, but I win.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

You're a smart guy Martin, so let me ask you, how does someone whose been told all their lives that contradicting church doctrine, or the Bible will lead them straight to hell have the freewill to choose what they believe?

Freewil means that you are free to choose your paths. Nobody is forcing you to go to a church, synagage, mosque or temple, you can do it if you want (For whatever reason you like) or you can stay away if you like.

People who have been told all of their lives that contradicting church doctrine is the path to hell have been mislead. Examine your concience and see if the path you choose for life is what is right for you. ONLY YOU CAN MAKE THAT CHOICE!

I am a believer but my personal belief will be the basis of my judgement, as I believe. To force a belief upon the promise of Hell if not folowed is tantamount to pysch warefare! You must believe from your heart, not because of an external pressure.

Religion is a hard subject to discuss, My belief is that God would not approve of browbeating, warfare or hate mongering but leaves "FREEWILL" up to us to decide how we are to treat our fellow person and if there is a reward, what we will get.

Hell, even Rev. Blair will probably get into the celestial 2 Rivers Red Brewery and be allowed to swim in the main tank! George Bush will proably have to sing the Iraqi National anthem for his dinner and all will be forgotten.

BOLD STATEMENT:

A God of Love could not condone evil done in the name of religion.

 

[p106_peppy]

Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

You're a smart guy Martin, so let me ask you, how does someone whose been told all their lives that contradicting church doctrine, or the Bible will lead them straight to hell have the freewill to choose what they believe?

You have been given the free will to decide whether or not you'll go to work. If you choose not to go, you may have fun staying home, playing on your computer, but in the end you'll lose your job and starve.
Likewise, God gave you the free will to decide what we believe. But if you make the wrong choice, it may be fun in the short run, but in the long term, you'll end up in hell.

 

[peapod]

Man talk about brain washing...don't forget to bring marshmallows on the trip vanni :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Ocean Breeze]

But if you make the wrong choice, it may be fun in the short run, but in the long term, you'll end up in hell.

are you talking about the "biblical hell"????

hmm. Well, one has to believe that such an entity/place even exists before that can be used to frighten someone into "towing the line".

Consequences of decisions are an everyday reality......and that is in the REAL world. (sometimes these consequences feel like the metaphorical hell.........but only metaphorically speaking)

 

[p106_peppy]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

You have a right to believe there is a no god, I have a right to believe there is. When we die, if you're right, we both lose. But if I'm right you still lose, but I win.

There can only be one correct answer. Just because you don't believe hell exists doesn't mean it doesnt.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

You have a right to believe there is a no god, I have a right to believe there is. When we die, if you're right, we both lose. But if I'm right you still lose, but I win.

There can only be one correct answer. Just because you don't believe hell exists doesn't mean it doesnt.

Ya know.........I would be a lot more concerned about the every day REAL life as we live it, than some mythical place of extreme and unpleasant punishment.......for "eternity"......(or some such fantasy). -- assuming there is an "afterlife " of some nature. The present is all anyone has.......and that should be (IMHO) tended to with care ,and excellent judgement.


You only live once..........( well, except for James Bond ) :wink: