The Church is not the Enemy

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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RE: The Church is not the

Churches and religion are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet. Think how much more peaceful this planet would be if wars etc were not started in the name of god, gods or religion. How many less starving people there would be. But due to Nascars church the oposite is happening.
 

Andygal

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May 13, 2005
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RE: The Church is not the

Let's be fair, they aren't the cause of ALL problems in the world, just most of them.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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The Church is surely not the enemy. This is especially true for developed countries that have Freedom of Religion. Everyone has a right to worship any faith they want.

Some developped countries prefer to maintain an interface between Religion and politics. Nothing wrong with this as they want to preserve their identity and heritage. As examples, Finland, Norway, Greece and Denmark maintain a stong interface between church and state.

Here in the US, our constitution doesn't specifically separate church and state. All we have is a letter initially written by Thomas Jefferson, calling on Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate." Therefore we do have some interface between Religion and Politics (example: Pledge of Allegiance, US currency, swearing under oath in court ...etc).
 

Nascar_James

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Re: RE: The Church is not the

no1important said:
Churches and religion are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet. Think how much more peaceful this planet would be if wars etc were not started in the name of god, gods or religion. How many less starving people there would be. But due to Nascars church the oposite is happening.

How can you blame the Vatican on this?
 

Twila

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Mar 26, 2003
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RE: The Church is not the

Churches and religion are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet
Actually it's humans that are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet.

Guns don't kill people. churches don't kill people. People kill people and they make up any old excuse to do it. If it's not in the name of religion it's in the name of "keeping the status quo" which explains why many people feel the need to drive their giant suv's and 4x4's through cities. They have the right to drive them and their gov't will ensure they can continue by exploiting and killing innocent people in oil rich countries. This has NOTHING to do with religion.

It's weird to blame the ill's of the world on inanimate items. It's like coping an excuse and not being responsible.


Edited for hands inability to keep up with my brain...again!
 

MMMike

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Mar 21, 2005
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Re: RE: The Church is not the

no1important said:
Churches and religion are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet. Think how much more peaceful this planet would be if wars etc were not started in the name of god, gods or religion. How many less starving people there would be. But due to Nascars church the oposite is happening.

I think that is a little unfair! Religion has also done a lot of good in the world. Look at the major conflicts of this century - religion did not play a large role in most of them. Human nature is what it is... if not for religion, we'd find something else to fight over.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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Here in the US, our constitution doesn't specifically separate church and state. All we have is a letter initially written by Thomas Jefferson, calling on Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate."

You know that isn't true, James. I provided you with pages and pages of quotes from your founding fathers on this very subject.
 

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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RE: The Church is not the

Actually it's humans that are the cause of all evil and misery on this planet.

That is true. But most of its done under the influence of religion.

I think that is a little unfair! Religion has also done a lot of good in the world

It may have but the bad they have done over time equals out to any good they may of done.

But we can agree to disagree.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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Look at the major conflicts of this century - religion did not play a large role in most of them

Judaism is a religion. That was a pretty big part of why Hitler was offing Jews in WWII. The Middle East has been in an ongoing religious conflict for my entire life. There is plenty of evidence that the Bush government is at least partially driven by religious doctrine in its violent actions. Ireland isn't over yet. I could go on all night, but we can all name religious conflict after religious conflict.
 
I cannot believe the hatred and bigotry there is towards the religion, particularly Christianity. I have an absolute right to believe what I want to believe, as does anyone, so don’t force your secularism on me.

Separation of church and state? It means that the state cannot enforce religion on its citizens, but citizens can use whatever reasons they feel, including religious beliefs, when choosing a government. There is no such thing as a state free of religion, because a non-religion doesn't exist. Heck, if you say you have no religion, then having no religion is your religion.

And stop blaming religion for everything that goes bad. Religion (well Christianity anyway) has never caused anything. What has caused it then? Secular corruption using religion as a reason. The crusades were more about stealing money and capturing land than about spreading Christianity, and you know it. Why would your average peasant be willing to wage war for the sake of making the rich richer? Tell them that it’s in the name of God, and they’ll do it, because they were illiterate and couldn’t know what the bible actually said.

Think of a world with no church. What would it be like? Well, it certainly wouldn’t be happy happy peaceful. People by nature are selfish and evil. Without the structure and morals of the church, the only difference between us and animals would be that we’d have less hair and maybe more weapons.

When I think of a state with out religion, I think of Cambodia under the Camere Rouge. Did atheism make it the conflict free? No, all atheism did was free them from moral and ethical constraints.

I am truly glad that in Canada we have a church that has influenced political policy. Without Christian morals structuring most of our fundamental laws, what separates up from Taliban Afghanistan?
 

Hard-Luck Henry

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Feb 19, 2005
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Re: RE: The Church is not the

MMMike said:
I think that is a little unfair! Religion has also done a lot of good in the world. Look at the major conflicts of this century - religion did not play a large role in most of them. Human nature is what it is... if not for religion, we'd find something else to fight over.

The thing is MMMike; religion has done plenty of direct harm, but there isn't a single 'good' that religion has done that couldn't have been done without a blind faith in Iron Age myths.
 

MMMike

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Mar 21, 2005
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So get rid of the churches and mankind will come together as one?? There will always be conflict in the world - if not over religion then for skin colour, appearance, GREED!
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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RE: The Church is not the

That is true. But most of its done under the influence of religion

The worst thing a person can do is blame something other then themselves for the acts they commit. We will never learn if we don't accept the blame for the things we do. The bible does not hold a gun to anybodies head and make them kill. Humans are imperfect and flawed. This is our fault. The evil and the killing is our fault. We must accept the blame.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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Reverend Blair said:
Here in the US, our constitution doesn't specifically separate church and state. All we have is a letter initially written by Thomas Jefferson, calling on Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate."

You know that isn't true, James. I provided you with pages and pages of quotes from your founding fathers on this very subject.

Correct Rev, but it's not enshrined in the US Constitution.
 

MMMike

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Mar 21, 2005
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All wars are fought for money and power. The ruling elites (god, I'm sounding like you wacky lefties, now :wink: ) just use religion as a tool to rally the masses.
 

Shiva

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2005
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I thought I'd offer the link to the original article in case anyone is interested. You can view more of Michael Coren's columns through that link. He's a Torontonian like myself, and he also does radio and has a tv program in addition to being a columnist. Though I'm not a Christian myself, I do find him to be a well thought out man and I generally greatly respect his opinion though I don't always agree with it. I certainly do feel that he has a point to an extent that there are those on the left who make a fetish of bashing the church, but I think that's partly a matter of politics because the church is often affiliated with the right, and political parties on the right are the rival of those on the left and their natural target.

I do have to say, though, that's it's either someone with an axe to grind, or someone with a very unsophisticated view of history, that thinks that religion is the real cause of violence in our history. True, religion has often been a pretext or officially stated cause for violence, but that's only the most superficial reading possible, where we accept the word of all those involved and take at face value their stated intention. What makes religion great in terms of those using it to force others to conform to particular behaviours or an agenda is that it is unquestionable since it is taken to be absolutely true. So religion is often used as a means of causing others to conform because they have no right to question the authority of religion. To suggest that therefore religion is responsible for the actions of those using it as an instrument of imperialism is then placing the blame on religion instead of the culprits causing the violence. If religion is to blame, does that mean that those who committed violence in its name are not to be held responsible? Obviously, the fault lies in humanity, and not anywhere else.

Look at any historic conflict where there were religious justifications and the end goal of the religionists was always political. The Crusades were a reaction to Islamic imperialism after the Christian kingdom of Israel was lost to the Muslims, and Christians rallied to get it back with (already mentioned) cash and land grabs as reward. The Inquisition killed and impoverished the Jews, and enriched the Christian elites who got all the property of the Jews in turn. The Reformation in England led to the creation of a new elite, and the transfer of wealth from the old guard to the new. To take an example from India, the emperor Aurangzeb destroyed the Hindu temples of those vassals who attempted to rebel against him. It was done on a religious pretext (that as a Muslim, Aurangzeb couldn't allow places of idol worship to exist) but he protected the temples of those vassals who obeyed him. So in the end it was really nothing but a political show.

As the article points out, religion can be a great source for ethics and good teachings on moral behaviour. However, it is also true that religion is not the only place for such teachings. Some of the kindest and most civilised teachings have not been inherently religious. Confucius, for example, was a great philosopher focussing on good human behaviour and ethics, but didn't discuss God at all. The majority of Buddhists do not believe God exists nor do they worship any God at all. Religious institutions, when manned by people of good moral character, benefit society greatly, as do all public institutions when manned by those of good moral character. Unfortunately, religion is no indicator of whether an individual will be a good human being or not, and it must be recognised that the vast majority of people who claim an affiliation with a particular faith are very rarely well educated in what that means. So there are good religious people, bad religious people, good irreligious people, bad irreligious people, and public institutions benefit us most when manned by people of integrity whether we're discussing a religious institution or a secular one...

The article is right. The church in and of itself is not the enemy. At times, it's our fellow men and women who are. It's a sobering thought...
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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I cannot believe the hatred and bigotry there is towards the religion, particularly Christianity. I have an absolute right to believe what I want to believe, as does anyone, so don’t force your secularism on me.

Nobody is trying to force secularism on you, just don't try to force it on us. That includes by trying to base laws on your religious beliefs and trying to teach children your myths in science class.

And stop blaming religion for everything that goes bad. Religion (well Christianity anyway) has never caused anything.

Gimmee some of what you be smokin'. Churches are, by their very nature, political organisations. They cause all sorts of shit.

The crusades were more about stealing money and capturing land than about spreading Christianity, and you know it.

Mostly they were about stealing money and capturing land for the church. What the hell right does anybody have to "spread Christianity" though, especially by violent means?

So get rid of the churches and mankind will come together as one?? There will always be conflict in the world - if not over religion then for skin colour, appearance, GREED!

So we should get rid of the neo-cons and the churches they support? Cool with me.

So the Jews caused the Holocaust? Ok, so then that makes it ok to kill the religious in Canada, because Hitler did it?

Not what I said, not what I meant, and only an idiot would try to paint it that way.

Correct Rev, but it's not enshrined in the US Constitution.

The meaning is because they clearly didn't mean god as you understand him. There is something called context that you on the radical religious right have a lot of trouble with, James. I provided it for you very clearly, but you've chosen to ignore it.

All wars are fought for money and power. The ruling elites (god, I'm sounding like you wacky lefties, now Wink ) just use religion as a tool to rally the masses.

Religions are formed for money and power. If those weren't motivating factors, they wouldn't become organised religions.
 

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
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Of course there are "reasonable" christians around,Shiva, but let me give you a simple, illustration of why i feel it's well past time that we stopped quietly accepting that religious groups hold undue influence over our political processes:

There's a debate taking place in the British House of Lords at present, on the subject of assisted suicide. Because of the the special position of religious groups within British society, the 29 unelected "Lords Spiritual" are entitled to speak and vote on the issue. These seem reasonable enough people, well educated and compassionate. They argue that, whilst they can understand how it must feel for the parents of a terminally ill child, or an elderly victim of disease, life "is a gift from God, and only he can decide when the time is right to end it."

As someone who knows that statement is complete nonsense, I find it offensive that these people have the power to perpetuate suffering on that basis. I'll take every opportunity I can to dispute that sort of outlook, not because it's a fetish of mine; I see it more as a duty - because to do otherwise simply maintains an antiquainted status quo. They're a vocal, highly visible, highly influential part of society, to stand back for fear of offending their irrational sensibilities would be plain wrong.