You're right. I'm wrong. My apologies
Apology accepted. I did not see the need for disparaging remarks but I responded in kind to yours.
Please accept my apology as well.
You're right. I'm wrong. My apologies
Carrier commanders answer to CINCPAC. That would have been Adm. Kimmel at the time. Kimmel was given blame to Pearl Harbor as was Gen Short. Why would Kimmel send his carriers out to sea to save them but not do a darned thing about an impending attack for the rest of the fleet? Knowing full right well that a disaster at Pearl would cost him his career. He spent his whole life being the sacrificial lamb because of Pearl Harbor.
Only in hindsight. The Japanese believed that the battleships were just as important and it was important to wipe them out for the great surface engagements that never happened.
We know that now but on December 7, 1941 the surface fleet of the US was wiped out and that was huge. We can say that they were old and outdated ships now because carriers became dominant during the war.
Which is the basis of this debate...true? You do not want to believe the US got caught with it's pants down on December 7th. You want to believe that it was something more sinister because it involves the US.
The USS Maine... Pearl Harbor... 9/11...
See a pattern? I sure do!
Was FDR the one that ordered the carriers from Pearl Harbor? Did Congress? There were only two US Carriers in the Central Pacific that day, the third carrier was in drydocks in San Francisco. Two carriers being out to sea is hardly evidence of a conspiracy.
And it would benefit the US to have our surface fleet destroyed? Japan could have taken the island if they wanted. If they had not become so cautious they could have destroyed the whole base. Where would the gain be if we had to conduct the Pacific War from California?
by commanders I assume you mean the Captains of the Lexington and the Enterprise. Commanders of aircraft carriers do not make ship movement decisions. Those decisions come from Admirals. A skipper of the Enterprise could not just say...
"I feel like taking her out to sea for a week... I have a bad feeling."
One carrier was delivering planes to Midway...the other was delivering planes to Wake Island.
I know this is already really reaching but as I said before, there are ways of bringing about desired action in high-ranking individuals; it can consist of ambiguous intelligence reports, manipulating schedules, and indirect pressures of that nature. Neither Kimmel nor anybody else at Pearl need have been given specific orders.
I was referring to the American side. The influence of dinosaurs in the Japanese forces was immense, and understandably so, given their history.
I was just stating the facts as we now know them. The implication was that there are always ambitious, progressive people within the power structure who are perfectly able to identify these facts without being clouded by traditionalism among other biases—I mean for god’s sake, it wasn’t that long ago!
It’s not about wanting to believe anything. As you said, there is plenty of historical documentation concerning what officially happened. This isn’t really being debated that much among academic circles that I know of. Nevertheless, there has still always been some uncertainty surrounding Pearl Harbour as a war-triggering event. I’m merely commenting on that.
Same story with the Maine and 9/11; these are the three main war-triggering events in US history. The circumstantial evidence concerns the general circumstances and how the victim (in this case, the USA) stands to benefit more from the war-triggering event than the attacker.
Although I have my issues with certain historical aspects of some parts of your culture (and I’m not making any reference to that here—and few other places in these forums), most of what I say could be applied to any regime anywhere in the world. Since the topic of this thread is the US regime and it’s possible involvement in crimes mainly against its own people, it’s only logical that we be debating that here. Open a thread on possible conspiracies within the Canadian regime or that of Fiji and I’ll use the same pattern of thought there too.
That said (and don’t take this the wrong way), the USA is the dominant (i.e. only) superpower power in the world today. So quite frankly, who gives a crap about Canada or Fiji? The USA and more specifically, its regime is inevitably the centre of attention (especially for citizens of a not-particularly powerful country with said superpower as a neighbour and all that that implies—nothing sinister implied there btw, just the political/economic/social reality of things).
Suffice to say, I’m not implicating the regime, I’m just thinking about alternate possibilities within what I think is reasonably realistic framework…which happens to also mean that if any of these events were planned for (i.e. with intent to benefit from), then it would obviously make those responsible at least among the top biggest arseholes I’ve ever come across. I assume there’s no debate there…
That doesn’t really contradict the suspicious nature of the coincidence; it just says that this is the way things were at this time. As for what prompted that coincidence, I suggested a possibility above (the part concerning manipulation of behaviour). It’s true, alone the absence of carriers means nothing. When combined with all the other circumstantial and documentary evidence, their not being there (putting aside the official reasons) is at least suspicious. But until proven otherwise, the assumption is that it was merely a coincidence.
Assuming intelligence knew as much as the documentary evidence suggests they knew, then it is likely that an invasion was known to not be in the Japanese plan. This naturally implies that had the Japanese actually had realistic invasion plans, the ‘sneak’ attack would not have been allowed to take place.
I was using the term generically but otherwise thank you for correcting my ignorance of naval ranks… ;-p The comment implied how the orders were carried out. So Pearl gets intel report, that gets passed on to carriers, that heightens fear just prior to attack without overtly stating that it will take place, schedules are altered. From what I know of what happened at the command level, it’s not so far-fetched. The process would merely involve the withholding of certain vital information, while later providing just enough of it at the right time. The behaviour of commanders would reflect that.
I suppose if you look hard enough you can find evidence that MAY look suspicious. Where Kimmel and Short failed was in that upon recieving warnings of an attack somewhere they did not react. Both the Admiral and General were accused of inaction. Neither conducted long range patrols, their was not a heightened sense of alert. They thought the threat was internal and sabotage...not an air attack.
To be fair there were plenty in the Japanese Navy especially who were wise to that reality but they likely didn't act on it due to an entrenched traditionalism in the armed forces (i.e. peer pressure).No question. I agree 100%. Not just in the Battleship Doctrine. The Japanese held on to the idea that their fighting spirit would prevail over the U.S's industrial capacity. They also thought that any fleet we would produce they would simply sink as they did at Pearl. They simply thought we would sue for peace quick.
Well Yamamoto did as well as a few others. As the war progressed the Japanese battleships for the most part stayed close to the home island. The Yamato did not sortie until the end of the war when they knew it was lost...the clearer thinking heads did.
Well there are conspiracists that tend to think that. I personally think that the US fell asleep at the wheel. All of the warning signs were there we just did not heed them. We knew there was an impending attack we just looked the wrong way. The Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbor was brilliantly planned. Afterwards there were plenty of Monday Morning Quarterbacks saying we should have done this or that.
How we benefited from 9/11 I will never know. How we benefitted from Pearl was only known after the war was over. In 1941 Germany and Japan were far from beaten and our military was just not ready.
That being said I don't think the events we are talking about are crimes against the American people.
If indeed all of what you suspect, think, etc. happened to be true then they would be crimes against the American people. However the evidence that points to other forces are also persuasive. i.e Japan and Al-Queda.
As far as the Spanish American war...the Americans were itching for a fight and I think the Maine just suffered a horrible accident that gave us an excuse. Just like the USS New Jersey had a horrible accident in the 90's. Accidents at sea happen. I do not believe an agent of the US government set a charge off in the magazine of the USS Maine.
I would not even call ship movements coincidence. Ships move ina nd out of the harbor all the time. Ships go to sea for various reasons. Heck if the Japanese planned the attack for Monday December 8 they would have caught the Enterprise at Pearl Harbor.
Agreed to a point. The Japanese did not intend to invade the Hawaiian Islands. it was not in their battle plan. What was known is that the Japanese Fleet did put to sea and was last seen heading east and then contact was lost due to a storm. Actions could have been taken but I just think that we were asleep. I think and evidence points to the US not believing that an attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent.
Well i wasn't trying to show you up but I was trying figure out what type of commander you were speaking of. The fleet and ships in the fleet do not move without orders from Fleet Commanders which are Admirals. Captains are in charge of aircraft carriers. They are in charge of how the carrier is run in the course of following orders from Admirals (like Kimmel). Kimmel gives an order to the Enterprise to deliver aircraft to Midway and the Captain of the Enterprise sees to it.
I do not think Kimmel would have knowingly fallen on his sword for the greater good of the up and coming war and become a willing scapegoat.
Maybe all of the claims of conspiracy theories are a conspiracy.
If Bush tripped over a foot stool these bloggers would be claiming it to be part of grand plan. If one or two of these stories have any merit, the other million don't. Those sites discredit themselves with the neverending overkill.