Tempers Flare Over School Prayers In Toronto

[mentalfloss]

Okay, this thread is going nowhere fast.

So, the issue is obviously revolving around secularism. And while public schools should remain secular, there is little that has been done to define the boundaries of same. So, when discussing an issue like this, it's a little more complex than simply going back into Canada's constitution or contrasting the public system with separate school boards.

So we have to delve into the specific circumstances. For instance:

Praying during recess
Praying during class
Setting up religious protests
Casually talking about religion with others

Since there are varying degrees of religious involvement, this is not a black and white issue.


EDIT: Good post wulfie. That was more of what I was looking for. Less on the right-wing ideology and more on the pragmatism of this debate.

 

[captain morgan]

Restricting access to the school facilities in order to accommodate one group hardly qualifies as a nominal circumstance.

 

[WLDB]

I was in the Catholic School System up til grade 8. Horrible. I think the two school systems should be merged and all religious elements removed.

 

[mentalfloss]

I was in the Catholic School System up til grade 8. Horrible. I think the two school systems should be merged and all religious elements removed.

As an atheist and a secularist, I can see the benefit of that - but society is just not ready for it yet. There are many families that still that want (need) to continue their religious traditions. That requires some time during the day to allow for praying or some form of religious curriculum.

A possible solution is to allow for private educational institutions for those people.

 

[Goober]

I don't understand what you mean. What things are equal?

. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.
Section
You have the right to a religious belief or not. One cannot infringe, within reason on the other.

As an atheist and a secularist, I can see the benefit of that - but society is just not ready for it yet. There are many families that still that want (need) to continue their religious traditions. That requires some time during the day to allow for praying or some form of religious curriculum.

A possible solution is to allow for private educational institutions for those people.

Education is a Prvincial area. Certain reights were guaranteed when Ontraion - Quecbec entered Confederation. Same with Manitoba.

Could you please expand upon the term "those people"?

 

[WLDB]

As an atheist and a secularist, I can see the benefit of that - but society is just not ready for it yet. There are many families that still that want (need) to continue their religious traditions. That requires some time during the day to allow for praying or some form of religious curriculum.

A possible solution is to allow for private educational institutions for those people.

Yes, if they want it they can pay a private school for it. My family was one of those that `wanted` it, but I was not. Spreading superstition with tax dollars is not a benefit to society.

 

[mentalfloss]

Could you please expand upon the term "those people"?

Anyone who is religious.

We have a publicly funded Catholic school board.

We could also be publicly funding Muslim, Jewish etc. school boards depending on demand and needs of the society at the time.

Alternatively, we could forsake public funding for all of them and force them to create private boards or institutions. But make no mistake, if we decide to transition them to a privatized system, then that has to apply for all religions in order to make any quantum of sense.


It really all depends on our religious tolerance.

 

[Goober]

Anyone who is religious.

We have a publicly funded Catholic school board.

We could also be publicly funding Muslim, Jewish etc. school boards depending on demand and needs of the society at the time.

Alternatively, we could forsake public funding for all of them and force them to create private boards or institutions.

Ref the above - they have rights guaranteed. You are willing to take those away?

 

[DaSleeper]

I guess this thread would be more interesting to some.....if it turned into religion vs atheism.. and the hell with people who allocate their property tax where they wish it to go:roll:

 

[mentalfloss]

Anyone who is religious.

We have a publicly funded Catholic school board.

We could also be publicly funding Muslim, Jewish etc. school boards depending on demand and needs of the society at the time.

Alternatively, we could forsake public funding for all of them and force them to create private boards or institutions.

Ref the above - they have rights guaranteed. You are willing to take those away?

I didn't read the excerpt but I'm not good with legaleze.

By rights, you mean they must be publicly funded?

 

[Goober]

I didn't read the excerpt but I'm not good with legaleze.

By rights, you mean they must be publicly funded?

Yes, going back to Confederation. When Upper/Lower Canada became Ontario & Quebec. Seperate schools were to be publicly funded. So minority rights would be protected.

 

[mentalfloss]

Yes, going back to Confederation. When Upper/Lower Canada became Ontario & Quebec. Seperate schools were to be publicly funded. So minority rights would be protected.

Okay.

Well, I personally would try and do what's best for everyone. So if we absolutely needed to privatize the system for the well being of everyone I would allow for that. And who knows, that law might change.

That being said, for the short term - if everything must remain public, then we have to honour public funding for new school boards if they begin to emerge. That means, muslims will be able to go to a muslim school board, catholics continue with theirs, jews could have their own school board if they really want to.

I really have no problem with either situation, really, so long as it doesn't have a significant detrimental affect to our general understanding of the world or the resources we need to maintain a sustainable lifestyle.

 

[wulfie68]

Yes, if they want it they can pay a private school for it. My family was one of those that `wanted` it, but I was not. Spreading superstition with tax dollars is not a benefit to society.

You keeping missing the point, with regard to Catholic schools: they are enshrined in the Constitution of Canada. They are guaranteed although no other religion is, save that everyone has freedom to practice their own religion (or lack of) and cannot be discriminated against based on those beliefs. To that end, we have the secular public school system and do not prohibit privately funded religious schools.

 

[mentalfloss]

Catholics are enshrined in the Constitution of Canada.

 

[TenPenny]

So, yea, if someone decides to pray during recess.. is that a bad thing?

It would depend on whether the girls are forced to sit in the back, boys in front, and if girls who were menstruating were prevented from attending at all.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

I don't have any problems with a prayer time in school as long as it doesn't interfere with the other students' study time.
I could be wrong but I understand that the prayer time is 1:00PM and it last 40 minute and that could disrupt the classes for the other students....so one solution is to shift lunch break to one o'clock for all the students and those that want to pray can have 20 minutes left for lunch...:smile:

But they have it in the cafeteria and ban non-muslims from entering. A non-muslem may be pretty hungry if it was over lunch.

I can only assume that the Muslims will miss 40 minutes of learning per day to pray.

 

[mentalfloss]

But they have it in the cafeteria and ban non-muslims from entering. A non-muslem may be pretty hungry if it was over lunch.

I can only assume that the Muslims will miss 40 minutes of learning per day to pray.

This is fine tuning kinda stuff.

If the school boards can find a way to allow people to harmoniously co-exist, regardless of creed - then they've solved the problem.

 

[TenPenny]

There is one over riding reason to ban Muslim prayers in school:

Girls sit behind boys during prayers and girls who are menstruating must sit behind everyone. Non-Muslims are not allowed into the cafeteria during prayers.

Until that is changed, I would not permit it.
End of story.
Your freedom of religion does not permit discrimination that goes against our Charter.
Period.

 

[Goober]

Catholics are enshrined in the Constitution of Canada.

Not sure if the document is the BNA - British North America Act. But yes it it protected.

 

[mentalfloss]

Not sure if the document is the BNA - British North America Act. But yes it it protected.

I just really enjoyed seeing "catholics" and "enshrined" in one sentence.