Technical question on WTC collapse

[hermanntrude]

I have also often wondered why there is doubt in the matter. We saw those buildings collapse. If you raise the heat of steel even a little bit it loses strength, the building wasnt perfect in the first place, the insulation wasnt present on the steel and the situation wasnt one often seen before and so could not have been planned into the design. Note that there were several floors above the crash site weighing down on the heated steel. It seems perfectly logical to me, a man who studies chemicals and materials for a living, that these buildings were knocked down by a plane hitting them.

I don't care who did it, and i don't think the US had any right to start pissing around in other countries as some kind of revenge. I also think that if bush wanted to go ahead and do stuff like that he could and would have done it anyway.

I think people entertain the conspiracy theories because it makes them feel clever, and that it makes them feel that they have knowledge that only they were clever enough to figure out, and therefore they feel as if on a pedestal, sneering at the "sheeple" below them. This, in my opinion is a huge disrespect to those who died.

 

[Tonington]

Does anyone know how much heat could be transferred by the collision alone, I mean before the fire even started raging?

 

[Sparrow]

Hi Herm, great post.
Many people saw 9/11 on TV, the problem is that they saw it with their hearts and not with their eyes. Even if they saw with their eyes their brains did not let them register what was happening. I can understand because they cannot fathom accepting the extent and magnitude of the government betrayal that this act would need. Also there are a lot of people who believe blindly what the media and the government say, that was the ace in the hole.

I don't think that anyone wants to believe that governments can be so heartless and unfeeling as to deliberately kill its own people. We like to believe it only happens in countries that have dictators and that it can never happen at home, but that is naive.

There are secret societies trying for a NWO and let not fool ourselves, our governments are part of the equation. We talk about fighting for freedom and democracy in the world, well we better begin protecting it here at home first.

 

[EagleSmack]

Why are you always looking for the over-complex drama-queen style answers?

to me it seems reasonably simple to realise that when a plane crashes into a building there's a good chance it'll collapse. And no, I don't think it justifies any of the crap that's happened since.

Because he is just that... a drama queen. But the scary fact is that he believes it is all a conspiracy.

But this is the same guy that believes the Canadian Govt. is covering up an incident that involved a UFO that crashed into a harbor somewhere in Nova Scotia. A conspiracy complete with good ol' Canadien divers observing aliens moving about their submerged space craft. :lol:

 

[Tonington]

Good lobster fishing in Shag Harbour

 

[MikeyDB]

The WTC event was a criminal act. It was spun into a rationale for war. That it was spun into rationale for war is the crucial dynamic. There can be no doubt that a great many perished at the hands of lunatic criminals. I didn't lose anyone close to me, but I have friends who did. Examining the event itself poses far too many moot questions and the engine of war that was generated out of this event multiplies the gravity of the tragedy. Finding answers that we're not prepared to entertain...that there were causes other than the aircraft ..that the air defenses were put on hold just prior to the event...that the 'evidence' was removed so quickly ...many questions...

Will finding the "truth" undo what followed?

 

[EagleSmack]

Hi Herm, great post.
Many people saw 9/11 on TV, the problem is that they saw it with their hearts and not with their eyes. Even if they saw with their eyes their brains did not let them register what was happening. I can understand because they cannot fathom accepting the extent and magnitude of the government betrayal that this act would need. Also there are a lot of people who believe blindly what the media and the government say, that was the ace in the hole.

I don't think that anyone wants to believe that governments can be so heartless and unfeeling as to deliberately kill its own people. We like to believe it only happens in countries that have dictators and that it can never happen at home, but that is naive.

There are secret societies trying for a NWO and let not fool ourselves, our governments are part of the equation. We talk about fighting for freedom and democracy in the world, well we better begin protecting it here at home first.

Sparrow... are you saying that we actually did not see planes crash into the buildings with our own eyes? Only our hearts saw them?

The phone calls from people on the doomed planes to loved ones, 911 operators, places of work saying that they have been hijacked by men of ME decent did not happen?

The video taped admissions of Bin Laden and praise for "what these boys did" are all a fabrication?

We must believe that the Bush Administration secretly planted charges in the Towers and Bldg 7, fired a missle into the Pentagon... and who knows what they did in Shanksville PA. All they know is a plane didn't crash there. We must believe that?

 

[hermanntrude]

well i wasn't surprised when those buildings came down. I had been expecting it.

And I still say it's an insult to those who died to play games with their fate, to hoist your own ego on the flagpole of conspiracy theory

 

[EagleSmack]

The WTC event was a criminal act. It was spun into a rationale for war. That it was spun into rationale for war is the crucial dynamic. There can be no doubt that a great many perished at the hands of lunatic criminals. I didn't lose anyone close to me, but I have friends who did. Examining the event itself poses far too many moot questions and the engine of war that was generated out of this event multiplies the gravity of the tragedy. Finding answers that we're not prepared to entertain...that there were causes other than the aircraft ..that the air defenses were put on hold just prior to the event...that the 'evidence' was removed so quickly ...many questions...

Will finding the "truth" undo what followed?

A criminal and terrorist act I grant you. Spun into a rationale for war... I grant you that as well.

But who do you think did it?

If you were to say that you think Al Queda was responsible for it and Bush seized on that as an opportunity to go to war in Iraq I would not be so against that opinion. There is indeed logic to that.

However when people say it was orchrestrated by the US Govt and Al Queda was completely innocent... well you lose me and lose a lot of credibility.

 

[EagleSmack]

Good lobster fishing in Shag Harbour

That's right... The Shag Harbor Coverup.

 

[Sparrow]

Sparrow... are you saying that we actually did not see planes crash into the buildings with our own eyes? Only our hearts saw them?

The phone calls from people on the doomed planes to loved ones, 911 operators, places of work saying that they have been hijacked by men of ME decent did not happen?

The video taped admissions of Bin Laden and praise for "what these boys did" are all a fabrication?

We must believe that the Bush Administration secretly planted charges in the Towers and Bldg 7, fired a missle into the Pentagon... and who knows what they did in Shanksville PA. All they know is a plane didn't crash there. We must believe that?

NO! You did see it with your eyes, but in a catastrophe of this magnitude the brain has an automatic button that does not let you register all of what you see. Example: How many times have witness of a crime been proven to have seen or not seen the whole thing. You are human and that makes you feeling and compassionate.

I am not saying that you don't have a right to your belief. But sometimes we are also to close to the subject to be able to look at the situation objectively. Although if it had happen in Canada I don't know how objective I could be.

 

[Sparrow]

Forgot to add: You have a right to believe whatever you think is true. However people also have the right to also believe what they believe. Both our countries have free speech and that does not just depend on what we have to say or whether we agree or not.

 

[MikeyDB]

Eaglesmack

Culpability in so complex an event as the tragedy of 9/11 is broad enough to be shared by many. I don't think a cabal of extremists working at the behest of the American government are responsible for the event itself...

That we have tolerated and contributed to an egregious imbalance that has resulted in extreme fundamentalism finding the wherewithal to perpetrate and commit this act is everyone's responsibility. We can't go back. We should be able to learn from our mistakes however...

 

[talloola]

Hi Herm..

I've read a great many arguments and the one that struck me the most was an engineer's paper who studied the WTC crime from the standpoint of standard i.e 'accepted' fire investigation techniques and concluded that there simply wouldn't have been sufficient oxygen present in the structure to raise the temperature of the burning material ...long enough and hot enough to structurally weaken the central core and collapse the building....

The larger question in my mind has always been..."Why is there doubt?"

Are you kidding me!!! there was a gaping hole where the plane entered, lots of oxygen, plus the
wind caused by the speed of the plane entering the building, I can just imagine the explosion that
took place, and the temperature was "extremely" high, from the high amount of jet fuel all approx. in the same general area. Even people who "hate" the u.s. should have enough common sense to
realize these facts, which have been explained by "neutral" experts which have satisfied me completely.

 

[EagleSmack]

NO! You did see it with your eyes, but in a catastrophe of this magnitude the brain has an automatic button that does not let you register all of what you see. Example: How many times have witness of a crime been proven to have seen or not seen the whole thing. You are human and that makes you feeling and compassionate.

I am not saying that you don't have a right to your belief. But sometimes we are also to close to the subject to be able to look at the situation objectively. Although if it had happen in Canada I don't know how objective I could be.

That is not entirely true. What we saw on 9/11 are as clear as day. Planes were hijacked and they were flown into 3 buildings and one into a cornfield in PA. There are videos, pictures, statements, 911 calls, home voice recordings of people in the hijacked planes. They were real people and real planes.

I at one time debated with a forum member who insisted that a missle hit the Pentagon. I posed the simple question.

If a missle hit the Pentagon... where did Flt. 77 go? The last position of Flt. 77 was over DC and it suddenly vanished.

His answer "Who knows. Ask your government. Flt. 77 is irrellavent."

Huh?

 

[EagleSmack]

Eaglesmack

Culpability in so complex an event as the tragedy of 9/11 is broad enough to be shared by many. I don't think a cabal of extremists working at the behest of the American government are responsible for the event itself...

That we have tolerated and contributed to an egregious imbalance that has resulted in extreme fundamentalism finding the wherewithal to perpetrate and commit this act is everyone's responsibility. We can't go back. We should be able to learn from our mistakes however...

So you do agree that it was extremist from the ME that did it for whatever reason?

We can all go on about the reasons that they did it and that is something to debate. But the argument that the US Govt. did it and they didn't is IMO truly insane.

Al Queda claims that they did it because of the presence of US Troops in Saudi Arabia and the US support of Israel. I understand that logic whether I agree or not with them. They gave us the reasons why they did it and said...

"If you don't change your ways, we'll do it again."

They made a statement and we responded the way we did.

Now I am not too keen on the Iraq War myself. I think we pulled the trigger too early. However I am in total support of the Afghanistan War and that should have been given our full 100% attention. But as far as Iraq is concerned, we are now there and we must stick it out. We cannot just cut and run and we won't. Even with the new Democratic Congress we aren't leaving as they (or some) promised. Too much is at stake now.

 

[Sparrow]

I also have a question. Washington is or shall we say was supposed to be a highly protected city because it was the seat of government. Apparently there were fighter squandran bases in close proximity. Why was there not interception? These were commercial flights that never change routes unless there is an emergency and then only after asking permission (this to avoid midair colisions).

 

[hermanntrude]

blowing the planes up wouldn't have helped a lot from the point of view of someone BEFORE they knew what was going on. Most hijackings involve the planes going to a different destination and landing safely

 

[Sparrow]

Yes the US has too much at stake but what about the Iraqi people. Their stake is even greater and especially that there is a good possibility, that when you do finally leave, they will revert back to what they were before. If you take a lesson from the history of Iraq and Afghanistan you will see they do not want anything to do with outsiders. They will endure anything from their own but not outsiders.
Maybe if we studied a little bit more history we could really help these people in a way that would help them develop into a country of their liking and not our standards.

 

[EagleSmack]

I also have a question. Washington is or shall we say was supposed to be a highly protected city because it was the seat of government. Apparently there were fighter squandran bases in close proximity. Why was there not interception? These were commercial flights that never change routes unless there is an emergency and then only after asking permission (this to avoid midair colisions).

Washington is now a true no fly zone but it was not always like that.

The bottom line is the US was caught completely unaware and unprepared for a homeland attack. There are a lot of fighter squadrons based in the area but in peacetime they are not on a high state of alert. There were not any CAP flights over the continental US prior to 9/11.

There was a lot of confusion that morning between the FAA and military, comm break downs, and a sense of astonishment. Ok... planes are hijacked. So we will see what they want but as we already know they weren't going to make any demands. By the time the planes started hitting the building the US had already lost the window to do anything. That would mean the pilots (USAF) would have had to crash their own planes into the airliners as they were scrambled with no weapons.

Al Queda pulled it off and got roughly 75% of the mission completed. I always wondered why the hijackers of the flight that crashed into PA waited so long. They got all the way to Ohio before they made their move whereas the other hijackers took the plane over almost immediatly. They left from Newark NJ and they could have been in DC rather quickly.