Technical question on WTC collapse

[danieltowsey]

About plane windows and steel melting

First your picture is small and its not in focus. it even looks like it has been maipulated. it proves nothing. just a week ago they had an amazing documentary on tv. sorry i never caught the name of it. It had the most amazingly clear close up taken on the sunny side of the plane shown in slow motion. It was absolutely clear that the plane was dark gray and had no windows...

Second someone said steel starts to weaken at 1100 degrees. That is so...only if the steel is in direct contact to the heat source. such as an accetylene flame. Do you know how hot 1100 degrees is? Nothing in that building burned that hot. Only artificial means produces that kind of heat. Thats why nowhere on earth has a steel structure building ever come down from a fire. and there has been many spectacular fires some lasting over a week and twenty floors burned. The buildings never fell.

Third don't forget about the red hot several thousand degrees molten steel pools that were still red hot three months later at all three buildings . That kind of result is only achieved with the use of thermite...The heat could be seen by satelite thermal imaging three months later..I have watched videos of the excavetors lifting the red hot molten steel. They sprayed water on the areas for more than three months..The true information about 911 is extensive...only the uninformed or unintelligent still watch and trust the major medias....


Oh do you still believe that cells phones work out in rural uninhabitted areas? Thats where flight 93 was flying when they claim that the cell calls were made. Whens the last time you left town and realized your cell phone does not work when you are to far from the cell tower?


Well some can be fooled all the time..at least some of us can't be fooled at all.

 

[CDNBear]

First your picture is small and its not in focus. it even looks like it has been maipulated. it proves nothing. just a week ago they had an amazing documentary on tv. sorry i never caught the name of it. It had the most amazingly clear close up taken on the sunny side of the plane shown in slow motion. It was absolutely clear that the plane was dark gray and had no windows...

Second someone said steel starts to weaken at 1100 degrees. That is so...only if the steel is in direct contact to the heat source. such as an accetylene flame. Do you know how hot 1100 degrees is? Nothing in that building burned that hot. Only artificial means produces that kind of heat. Thats why nowhere on earth has a steel structure building ever come down from a fire. and there has been many spectacular fires some lasting over a week and twenty floors burned. The buildings never fell.

Third don't forget about the red hot several thousand degrees molten steel pools that were still red hot three months later at all three buildings . That kind of result is only achieved with the use of thermite...The heat could be seen by satelite thermal imaging three months later..I have watched videos of the excavetors lifting the red hot molten steel. They sprayed water on the areas for more than three months..The true information about 911 is extensive...only the uninformed or unintelligent still watch and trust the major medias....


Oh do you still believe that cells phones work out in rural uninhabitted areas? Thats where flight 93 was flying when they claim that the cell calls were made. Whens the last time you left town and realized your cell phone does not work when you are to far from the cell tower?


Well some can be fooled all the time..at least some of us can't be fooled at all.

I won't debate any of your post, as you are obviously deluded, but I must correct your innaccuracy on the weakening point of steel.

Structural steel WILL LOSE 50% of its strength at 650 degrees F. A carbon fire burns at around 850 degrees F. The math is so simple, even you should be able to figure it out on your own.

 

[thomaska]

Oh god..someone just had to necro this thing from November.

Fine. The global warming added to the wekening of the steel, obviously the .00000000000000000231 increase in global temps added to the fuel fire in the WTC.

 

[Tonington]

I can't believe this crap is still going, I smell a conspiracy:lol:

 

[TenPenny]

But it's at 15 pages, so let's keep it going.

Now, how can we tie the A380 into this. It's obviously part of a French (remember them) conspiracy to create larger "bombs" for terrorists to attack the US with....

 

[thomaska]

The conspiracy is to bog down airports. It already takes idiots 30 minutes just to get off a 737.

With 500-800 passengers trying to deplane, it will now take weeks. Imagine having ten times the number of out of shape snobby first class passengers in front of you. Oh the humanity!!!:lol:

 

[AndyF]

Just a thought... why do the beams need to fail in order for the tower to collapse? What happens if just the bolts holding the beams together were heated and then failed... Did they use bolts or were the beams just welded together?

If I recall the investigation correctlty they used angle irons that were welded on.

AndyF

 

[talloola]

I watched a documentary about 3 yrs. ago, so can't remember who it was, but, it was very thorough,
and, nothing to do with the White House.

They explained exactly what would have happened, and the structure of the trade centers, and the\
extreme heat, and once the first girders melted, it was like an implode. It made perfect sense to me.
They also explained that in preparation of construction, noone had any idea in the world, that a
large jet might fly into them, which caused that much heat in those areas of the buildings.
They also explained certain weaknesses of the structure. I am not educated in this field, but I
accept that explanation, and I'm sure the architects and structural engineers have learned what not
to do in the future.

And the monsters who are responsible for this, also had no idea that their planes would cause those
towers to fall, so, they must have been very delighted, as well as "shocked".

Any conspiracy theory, would not have had to be such huge magnitude, just to allow Bush to invade
Afghanistan. He could have planned something very small, then state his plan to invade. All those
planes were the plan of Osama Bin Laden and his cronies.
It was Iraq that he really wanted to invade, so, if he had a conspiracy theory going, he would have
blamed 911 on Iraq, and, why bother with Afghanistan.
With a conspiracy theory, they easily could have invented a group of people connected to Iraq, just
like they "ignored" the fact that there were "no weapons of mass destruction".

 

[EagleSmack]

Just a couple of thoughts

We are not talking about small pieces of steel here. These girders are huge. The steel is six inches thick. Steel is a good conductor of heat, but that does not neccesarily make it weaker. The heat would also be conducted along the length of the girder. The point I am trying to make here is that there would have to be a concentration of heat for considerable time to raise the temperature of the steel to the point of failure. It seemed to me that a lot of the jet fuel hurled right through the building and burned in the air.

There is a photo of a woman standing in the hole made by the airliner on the 94th floor and trying to look down to the streert. Heat does not seem to be a major problem where she is.

Oh really? Heat did not seem to be a major problem? Why were they all jumping?

 

[talloola]

And, the girders being so large, once they started falling, the weight of each set of them on each
floor would have been awsome, it's not hard to realize at all.

It was also explained in the documentary I watched, that the "way" the towers were constructed, once
the girders began to come down, there was "no" way the building could support itself, which is what
the "weakness" in it's construction is in the first place, and if they could ever have imagined a large
plane flying into the building, with all of that jet fuel on board, the construction would have been
different, as it will next time I'm sure.
I guess when "horrible" events take place, it's an education in itself, a learning experience
for the future.

 

[Sparrow]

But that is the problem we never learn. I am going to open my big mouth and start another bonfire, if there had been fire retardant asbestos in the building people might have had more time to get out.

 

[I think not]

But that is the problem we never learn. I am going to open my big mouth and start another bonfire, if there had been fire retardant asbestos in the building people might have had more time to get out.

There was fire retardant material on the columns and trusses, the amount of energy released from the impact blew the insulation off the steel.

 

[CDNBear]

Just a couple of thoughts

We are not talking about small pieces of steel here. These girders are huge. The steel is six inches thick. Steel is a good conductor of heat, but that does not neccesarily make it weaker. The heat would also be conducted along the length of the girder. The point I am trying to make here is that there would have to be a concentration of heat for considerable time to raise the temperature of the steel to the point of failure. It seemed to me that a lot of the jet fuel hurled right through the building and burned in the air.

There is a photo of a woman standing in the hole made by the airliner on the 94th floor and trying to look down to the streert. Heat does not seem to be a major problem where she is.

You aren't a structural engineer are you?

This is a 3D Cadd of structural steel, very much like that in the WTC. When you say "six inches thick", what exactly are you talking about?

 

[darkbeaver]

The towers were demolished professionally, Uncle Sham did it, a nice profitable war was the desired result. What nobody seems to ask in this thread is what would you do to own the whole planet. If you read what was written in PNAC and Bresinskis Grand Strategy you will see that the buildings were nothing more than a catalyst to begin the process of world domination. People who would murder a million and a half innocent men women and children and totally destroy a country would not hesitate for a minute to snuff 3000 office workers and trash some skyscrapers.

 

[darkbeaver]

9-11 Living In The Matrix


USA News / Blogs
Date: Mar 21, 2007 - 10:57 PM . 9-11 Living In The Matrix

Victoria 9-11 Truth - Peter Zaza - March 12, 2007 - Have you seen the movie, "The Matrix"? A computer hacker learns from mysterious rebels about the true nature of his reality, and his role in the war against the controllers of it. What is the true nature of our reality? Of course everyone's definition is going to be different, but reality and facts are not really subjective, only interpretations. Two months ago, my reality was diametrically opposite to what it is now. I believed what I was told, what the media reported, what I thought I saw happening on 9-11. Now, when I express my opinion, I'm ridiculed, scorned, and labeled as a crackpot. My interpretation of the facts may be different from two months ago, but the reality of events on 9-11 have remained exactly the same as on the day they occurred. I was simply too ignorant of the facts to realize that what I was told by those that I trusted, was a complete lie.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

http://tribes.tribe.net/vic911truth


We are all together, and all alike. My evolution of thought is much the same as the next person's. When I first heard about the 9-11 truth movement, I shrugged it off and said, "that's crazy, you're paranoid and delusional", or "there are always going to be some crazy conspiracy theories". Thank goodness my friend persisted and weeks later mentioned it again. This time, I opted to honour his integrity and respect his intelligence enough to take some time and do some research.

After five years of believing in something as fact, and having no other information to the contrary - it took me just one hour to see the real truth about this issue. There was an epiphany; a huge light went on inside my head, and suddenly so many things finally made sense about this tragedy. Especially the subsequent events dependent upon it, for 9-11 truly is the lynch-pin for the justification of so many atrocities perpetrated by its architects.

Heuristic logic and basic cognitive reasoning depend on elemental constructs of accepted thought and a fundamental understanding of physical laws, which can't be abrogated by such buffoonery as perpetrated by the US government. The buildings obviously came down because they were deliberately imploded, most notably the third one, which wasn't even hit by a plane. (David Copperfield would pay big bucks for that trick!) Why is it obvious? Let's look at this localized event of a plane crashing into the higher floors of such a tall building. One simply cannot rationalize how each floor underneath suddenly explodes into dust, loses all structural integrity, and allows a point in time/space at the top of the structure to fall down to earth at free-fall speeds, just as if there was only air to impede its descent. All those intervening floors suddenly decide to synchronously disintegrate into a total global collapse, and offer no resistance. Reason alone should dictate that those structures could only come down in this fashion by demolition. There simply is no other way to get a building to collapse like that, other than controlled demolition. Now, this point is really the key, like the first micro-second of the Big Bang Theory, so much is riding on this 9-11 catastrophe: the fake war on terror, the war against Afghanistan, the war in Iraq (Enough with the freedom and democracy already, you guys are killing me).

It makes sense, even to a non-engineer like myself, that if we are to believe the official "fire" theory, we would be forced to imagine that the steel be required to weaken under severe, and very long-lasting exposure to a heat source of incredible magnitude, to effect the entire steel frame, with all its heat dissipating potential over such a voluminous area of metal. That steel would get so extremely hot, that it would bend, buckle and sway in a non-symmetrical fashion. Instead, it broke into distinct sections - along with everything else being pulverized - and fell straight down into its own footprint. Add to this the many documented eye-witness testimonies of massive explosions occurring in the substructures and other floors, which could only account for the rivers and pools of molten metal found weeks after the event. This can be reasoned as follows:

Steel melts at X degrees. Fossil fuel fires, such as kerosene jet-fuel, can only obtain maximum temperatures of far less than X in these conditions over this elapsed time period. The fact of the matter is, stated temperature is far too cool to cause evaporation and melting of steel - unless we are to believe that a one-hundred and ten story building could crash down onto some steel, and heat it up to thousands of degrees only by the dynamic of friction alone. Let's think about this - let's try and drop a few steel beams off a tall building, and see if they turn into a molten state after hitting other steel on the ground. Is that what they'd have us believe? I dare say, next time someone tries to tell you a story about how Osama bin Whatsit and a bunch of nimrods with box cutters are to blame, ask them how we end up with molten steel - Tell me the process. While you're at it, ask how the hell did they get a forty-seven story building to fall down beside the ones that were hit by the airplanes? How did the steel in building Seven become so incredibly weakened, as to cause a total, global, synchronously beautiful, he said he was goona pull it, can't you all see that it was a controlled demolition collapse?

So, along our journey we must proceed.

Simply by using our Einstein-like thought experiments, along with physical evidence and eye-witness testimonies, and sometimes relying on critical thinking alone, we can say with utter certainty that these buildings were imploded. We can't rely on examination of ALL the physical evidence, most of which was whisked away by the authorities too quickly, a fact that tends to incriminate them. They can spend years reconstructing a plane crash to try and figure out forensically what happened, but not the US government on 9-11. No way. Not after the biggest, most diabolical, horrendous event of the new century. Just hours after the attacks we had pictures of the guys who did it, and a myth about a guy in a cave who masterminded this grandiose scheme to outwit the entire defense system of the biggest super-power on earth. No black boxes or video tapes released, gag orders issued, destruction and suppression of evidence, manipulation of media, etc. etc. etc.

Would it not seem reasonable to want to explore all potential eventualities and probable causes before coming to a hasty decision regarding the biggest mass-murder in history? Would one not at least consider a demolition theory, instead of sticking with a "official conspiracy theory" that required physical laws of nature to behave like in some bizzaro world. But no - because as soon as we admit that there were explosives, then we MUST admit that it was an inside job - ergo there must be collusion at the highest levels - case closed.

The entire government theory hinges upon there not being any controlled demolition. Unfortunately, anyone who looks at the evidence in an honest, scientific manner could hardly deny it. But still, they must adhere to this ridiculous explanation, and conveniently, anybody who questions it must be a terrorist, or somebody who supports terrorism, and on and on. Yes, my dear people of the United States and the World, it was definitely done by the very ones who have suppressed all the evidence and insisted on this impossible story. Ergo, there is no real war on terror as such, except for the one that the US government is inflicting upon us all. It's a hoax, a sham, and too many people on this planet are either uninformed, misinformed, or just plain dis-informed. Let's talk about Jaylo's new hair style, or Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, or any other such inane drivel that those corporate slaves who call themselves journalists serve up on the idiot box every night.

"Our greatest difficulty at the moment is that our media is totally corrupted - starting with the New York Times - the media belongs to our rulers."

"In the old days when something ghastly went wrong you could count on journalists writing something about it....there are no voices expressing disagreement, " Gore Vidal

I'm ashamed that I spent five years not even questioning 9-11 But once apprised of a few facts, and taking into account the totally shameful behaviour of the media, and the egregious actions of the US government to cover-up and obfuscate the truth, I realize I shouldn't be too hard on myself, or others who also must alter their mental paradigms about our world, no matter how comfortably they fit. We all must shudder at the thought that those entrusted to lead and protect us, could be so twisted as to commit such acts. It's time to wake up and do the right thing. All of us. We must get those psychopaths out of office, and don't bother with the other party, that's just part of the scam, in case you haven't figured it out. Take those trillions of dollars spent on killing people, and put it towards solar power, wind power, or any other kind of power that doesn't destroy our once-beautiful planet, or motivate a part of our society to become so dehumanized, that they could commit such heinous acts, all for profit and control.

The US government is leading its nation down a path to ruin. History does not look kindly towards tyrants who spread terror and perpetrate wars like the Bush administration. I was truly disgusted when it was demonstrated to me how the United States government has sanctioned the dumping of depleted uranium in some of the ammunition used on Iraq. Scores of babies born disfigured, both Iraqi and American, are a grim testament to this horrific practice. Bad enough that they kill and maim them, but to add insult to injury, do they really need to torture them, as well as subject future generations to such a ghastly existence? And why? Oh, right. Halliburton up five points.

I just don't understand how any American can feel good about watching football, going bowling, waving their flags, when their government is committing such atrocities in the so-called name of freedom and democracy. I grieve for the families of those victims in New York; the families of those Afghanis who were just innocently trying to struggle through their lives; the allied soldiers dying in Iraq and their families trying to rationalize why; and the countless thousands of Iraqis who are still being killed, dragged out of their homes and called terrorists, while their wives and children are forced to witness such nightmares. If you are truly cognitive of what has happened, and what is still happening, then there's just no way you can sit around the table with your big fat turkeys, raising a glass and singing, "God Bless America". I must agree with Howard Zinn, "Why not, God bless everyone?".

And all of it predicated on the lie of 9-11.

We are inexorably a part of that lie by continuing our denial of its existence, and that makes us all a party to everything that has been happening as a result. It is incumbent upon the "US" and the rest of "us" to prove what really happened that fateful day. Let's go to court. We've got the likes of Griffin, Ryan, Fetzer, Jones, and countless others who have the expertise and moral integrity on our team. We've got science. We've got the truth. What have they got? A bull**** story any eighth grade science student could refute, and a bunch of experts who don't seem to mind going down in the annals of history as being dreadfully incompetent, however loyal, and completely unwilling to even debate their so-called findings, therefore, a bunch of anals.

And so the fascists are now getting the detention centers ready- those are for you "doubting" Americans you know - because the huge stinking pile of horse manure known as 9-11 isn't going to go away, rather it will just keep getting worse. Like a flood that starts from a few small drops, understanding of the truth will continue to grow and gain strength. They can't hide from truth. Truth is not spin, or what they tell their bootlicking media to cover. Truth doesn't care if they think they can keep on repeating the same lies, over and over, until the world has heard them enough times to believe them.

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" - Arthur Schopenhauer

Don't be afraid of telling the truth regarding 9-11. Tell everybody you can - shout it out. Let them call you names, let them ridicule. We truly are very much alike, and just as I scorned the first person who told me while I still lived under the yoke of my own ignorance, you will plant the first seeds of doubt and inquiry within others. Over time, this crazy idea will move through its natural evolution into becoming accepted thought.

The operative question being whether we collectively let too much time elapse before those murderous tyrants plunge us further toward apocalyptic extinction.

What are you going to do about 9-11?


"There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" - Goethe




This article comes from PEJ News
http://pej.org

The URL for this story is:
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6689

 

[hermanntrude]

you know dark, to insist on copying and pasting articles which conjecture that these building were destroyed by anything except those damn great planes we saw hit them is starting to seem rather rude.

 

[darkbeaver]

you know dark, to insist on copying and pasting articles which conjecture that these building were destroyed by anything except those damn great planes we saw hit them is starting to seem rather rude.

Rude or crude those damn great planes did nothing but provide a cover for the act, the incredulous continue to believe in fairy tales about the towers. It is literaly impossible for the structures to have done what they did without controled demolition, simply imposible. :smile:

 

[talloola]

No it wasn't impossible, and the proof is in, exactly "what happened", even I, with no degree in
engineering, after thoroughly reading/ and watching the documentary, understand what happened.

I don't like the u.s. administration either, but they didn't do that.

I respect your intelligence, d b , but, "get a grip".

 

[hermanntrude]

Rude or crude those damn great planes did nothing but provide a cover for the act, the incredulous continue to believe in fairy tales about the towers. It is literaly impossible for the structures to have done what they did without controled demolition, simply imposible. :smile:

Why are you always looking for the over-complex drama-queen style answers?

to me it seems reasonably simple to realise that when a plane crashes into a building there's a good chance it'll collapse. And no, I don't think it justifies any of the crap that's happened since.

 

[MikeyDB]

Hi Herm..

I've read a great many arguments and the one that struck me the most was an engineer's paper who studied the WTC crime from the standpoint of standard i.e 'accepted' fire investigation techniques and concluded that there simply wouldn't have been sufficient oxygen present in the structure to raise the temperature of the burning material ...long enough and hot enough to structurally weaken the central core and collapse the building....

The larger question in my mind has always been..."Why is there doubt?"

Why is it that so many people actually entertain the 'conspiracy theories'....tells us something I think...