Susan Atikins begs for release from prison

[tracy]

To tracy:
When governments murder people, then people try and stop them, no different than with people. The same goes for theft etc.

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Really? The government gets to kill people in the US, it's called executions. That this woman escaped the death penalty is simply her good luck.

Locking her up doesn't do anything but waste a finite resource.


If causing her to suffer is worth somebody being denied life saving treatment, go for it. But every dollar spent means it isn't spent somewhere else.
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You're being simplistic again. How do you know the money spent on her incarceration would go to lifesaving treatment for someone else? How do you know it wouldn't go to something equally wasteful like the war in Iraq or drilling in Alaska?

She can't hurt anyone nor can she be rehabilitated. If you are really concerned re-introduce the death penalty and just shoot her to put her out of her misery (bringing up the Euthanasia debate).

She's dead, no amount of suffering on her part will do anything to bring back her victims, nor "make her learn" because she's dead.

Its about as useful as spitting on her corpse.

I don't think spending time in jail is "suffering" worse than being executed. I think it's a lot nicer than being shot. She's been fortunate to have the last couple of decades to change, to evolve, to breathe, to eat, to sleep, to pray, etc. There is nothing cruel about her continuing to do that in jail until she dies a natural death. As far as I know she's never expressed the wish to be shot rather than die in jail. She's only expressed a preference to die of cancer out of jail rather than in jail.

 

[talloola]

I'll bet she isn't remotely close to the same person that she was, being away from Manson for 40 years.

Yeah, I'll bet, I can imagine the thoughts that have gone through her mind in all these
years, how gullible, and stupid she was, to allow that little pea brain, Manson to
become her leader, and she allowed him to control her life, what pitiful human beings,
both he and her and the others.
It just goes to show you, that a wrong turn at a very young age, can affect the rest of your life. I wonder how her parents have lived with this throughout their lives.

 

[Kreskin]

I find it hard to believe that anyone involved in those crimes would've done anything remotely close to what they did if they never knew Manson. His influence has to count for something. Even the original prosecutor is ok with letting her go.

I'm not defending just her per se but 40 years in prison isn't exactly living the high life and not paying a penalty. I'm 46. Putting time into perspective, my 6th birthday was a helluva long time ago. I think I've changed. Anyone would change substantially in that time. Unless a person is still a threat and not genuinely remorseful for what happened, to continue punishing a person after 40 years is bordering on abuse of power. There needs to be a better reason to continue punishing someone than pointing to crimes committed by a person who isn't remotely the same as before. If she is still a threat or lacks remore, certainly she should continue to pay a price. But if we're left with the reason she should be there is because she was lucky she didn't get the DP 40 years ago, I think such a system needs a little soul searching.

 

[tracy]

I find it hard to believe that anyone involved in those crimes would've done anything remotely close to what they did if they never knew Manson. His influence has to count for something. Even the original prosecutor is ok with letting her go.

I'm not defending just her per se but 40 years in prison isn't exactly living the high life and not paying a penalty. I'm 46. Putting time into perspective, my 6th birthday was a helluva long time ago. I think I've changed. Anyone would change substantially in that time. Unless a person is still a threat and not genuinely remorseful for what happened, to continue punishing a person after 40 years is bordering on abuse of power. There needs to be a better reason to continue punishing someone than pointing to crimes committed by a person who isn't remotely the same as before. If she is still a threat or lacks remore, certainly she should continue to pay a price. But if we're left with the reason she should be there is because she was lucky she didn't get the DP 40 years ago, I think such a system needs a little soul searching.

Someone else influencing you isn't an excuse. It's pathetic to blame someone else for participating in murder. It isn't like peer pressure to smoke or dress a certain way. We're talking about brutal, horrific murders. Could you even fathom stabbing anyone, let alone a woman who was within weeks of giving birth? The penalty for that has to be extreme. If that crime doesn't warrant a sentence of natural life in prison, what does?

I also think it's important to consider the families' feelings. Can you honestly say you would advocate her release if it had been your wife and unborn child killed, even if it was 40 years ago? What would your life be like had that happened to you? Would the passing of time make you forgive, or would it be all the more painful knowing you'd been robbed of 40 years with your child? Take every wonderful moment you've had as a father and erase it from your life. What's an appropriate penalty for that?

I'm glad for this woman that she's been able to grow spiritually and change as a person. I think the system that allowed her to do that is already showing a lot of mercy and kindness. I don't believe in the death penalty, I don't believe in torturing prisoners. I do believe in keeping them locked up for their natural lives if the crimes they committed were as evil as this. It doesn't matter if she's changed. We say she's a new person, but that's just silly. She may have different beliefs today, but she's still the person who committed evil acts. Our present is always the result of choices we made in the past.

 

[Kreskin]

Someone else influencing you isn't an excuse. It's pathetic to blame someone else for participating in murder. It isn't like peer pressure to smoke or dress a certain way. We're talking about brutal, horrific murders. Could you even fathom stabbing anyone, let alone a woman who was within weeks of giving birth? The penalty for that has to be extreme. If that crime doesn't warrant a sentence of natural life in prison, what does?

I also think it's important to consider the families' feelings. Can you honestly say you would advocate her release if it had been your wife and unborn child killed, even if it was 40 years ago? What would your life be like had that happened to you? Would the passing of time make you forgive, or would it be all the more painful knowing you'd been robbed of 40 years with your child? Take every wonderful moment you've had as a father and erase it from your life. What's an appropriate penalty for that?

I'm glad for this woman that she's been able to grow spiritually and change as a person. I think the system that allowed her to do that is already showing a lot of mercy and kindness. I don't believe in the death penalty, I don't believe in torturing prisoners. I do believe in keeping them locked up for their natural lives if the crimes they committed were as evil as this. It doesn't matter if she's changed. We say she's a new person, but that's just silly. She may have different beliefs today, but she's still the person who committed evil acts. Our present is always the result of choices we made in the past.

I do think being brainwashed by a cult should be a factor. The SLA machine gun-toting terrorist-joining gal, Patty Hearst, was let go a long time ago and any interview she has had is like watching someone reflect on the mind of someone else. She did the crime; committed the evil acts. Other bank robbing terrorists don't get the same breaks. The circumstances are different and acknowledged.

I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they have ever done. Unless they are completely untreatable and even remotely dangerous to society, 40 years after the murder of someone in my family I'd probably want to speak with that person, knowing they have paid a helluva penalty. I would think of how much her own family may have suffered from this. It wouldn't be my goal to arbitrarily squeeze out every last bit of pain from other people, including members of her own family that had nothing to do with it (assuming she has any). Well after she is gone I might feel empty reflecting on how my own vindictiveness may have affected innocent others. That's me but I'm not the families involved here.

 

[tracy]

I also would like to add, people make a lot of fuss about how she's improved herself as a person... Well, she didn't really have any other way to go did she? We're talking about a person who held down a pregnant woman while others stabbed her. We're talking about a person who told Tate that she had no mercy for her when she begged for her and her unborn child's life. We're talking about a person who wrote "Pig" on the wall in Tate's blood. We're talking about a person who laughed at her victims' family members in court. It doesn't get much worse than that, so I don't see how she could avoid improving herself.

I also question whether the sick personality it would take to do those things could ever truly change. Has she learned empathy, or is she saying what she needs to say to get sympathy? Psychopaths and sociopaths are remarkably good at preying on the sympathy of others. They know exactly what buttons to push and how to paint themselves as the victims no matter what they did to contribute to their current situation. I don't know if a person can learn to have empathy for others if it didn't develop as it does for most of us in childhood.

 

[Lester]

It's not only about punishment- to let her die there is also a strong deterrent to other unsavoury characters that lurk in our society.

 

[tracy]

I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they have ever done. Unless they are completely untreatable and even remotely dangerous to society, 40 years after the murder of someone in my family I'd probably want to speak with that person, knowing they have paid a helluva penalty. I would think of how much her own family may have suffered from this. It wouldn't be my goal to arbitrarily squeeze out every last bit of pain from other people, including members of her own family that had nothing to do with it (assuming she has any). Well after she is gone I might feel empty reflecting on how my own vindictiveness may have affected innocent others. That's me but I'm not the families involved here.

Her own family was never really involved with her since she became an adult. It's part of the reason she was such easy prey for Manson I'm sure. Her only "family" was her son and he was adopted as an infant fortunately. The fact that she was a mother makes her crime all the more unfathonable to me.

I guess I don't see spending your life in jail for your actions to be such pain or suffering. She's fed, clothed, sheltered, given free medical care. She can spend her time reading, praying, painting, talking to her husband... It's better than life for many decent people in California. Even if she's granted this compassionate release, she probably won't leave the hospital so there is no extra pain inflicted on her by denying this release. The only pain will be to the victims' families who oppose it.

I actually agree with your feeling that a person is better than their worst action. It's one of the reasons I don't believe in the death penalty. I'm all for giving people the chance to change and become better... I just don't think that necessarily has to be out with the rest of society. If Clifford Olsen became born again tomorrow, I wouldn't advocate letting him out. This woman really isn't that different.

 

[Kreskin]

Her own family was never really involved with her since she became an adult. It's part of the reason she was such easy prey for Manson I'm sure. Her only "family" was her son and he was adopted as an infant fortunately. The fact that she was a mother makes her crime all the more unfathonable to me.

I guess I don't see spending your life in jail for your actions to be such pain or suffering. She's fed, clothed, sheltered, given free medical care. She can spend her time reading, praying, painting, talking to her husband... It's better than life for many decent people in California. Even if she's granted this compassionate release, she probably won't leave the hospital so there is no extra pain inflicted on her by denying this release. The only pain will be to the victims' families who oppose it.

I actually agree with your feeling that a person is better than their worst action. It's one of the reasons I don't believe in the death penalty. I'm all for giving people the chance to change and become better... I just don't think that necessarily has to be out with the rest of society. If Clifford Olsen became born again tomorrow, I wouldn't advocate letting him out. This woman really isn't that different.

If she's living better than many Californians, and assuming she is not a risk, I don't see the point in keeping her. If there is no extra pain inflicted either way, the present incarceration seems to be of no value to anyone.

Olsen is a sexual sadistic psychopath. I see no comparison to a woman brainwashed by a murderous nutcase.

I suppose at this juncture the families of those killed are the ones who are in the best moral position to deny her request. If doing so is what they need to do then sobeit.

 

[tracy]

If she's living better than many Californians, and assuming she is not a risk, I don't see the point in keeping her. If there is no extra pain inflicted either way, the present incarceration seems to be of no value to anyone.

Olsen is a sexual sadistic psychopath. I see no comparison to a woman brainwashed by a murderous nutcase.

I suppose at this juncture the families of those killed are the ones who are in the best moral position to deny her request. If doing so is what they need to do then sobeit.

Susan Tate's sister has been pretty clear about her wishes that this woman not be granted release. The victims' families are the only ones hurt by this, as they are with every hearing. Can you imagine having to ask for your family's murderer to stay in jail again and again. They should be given some peace of mind that when someone is sentenced, their sentence is exactly what it says it is.

OT, but why is it you're convinced she was just brainwashed and not also a psychopath? You can't brainwash someone with a strong moral character that easily. You need to have some serious psychological flaws to go along with what she did. We aren't talking about someone who was raised from childhood to murder. She was convinced in a relatively short period of time. It doesn't seem like she needed too much prodding. Her crimes were sadistic. If you read the details of the crime you'd be horrified. Yet, she seemed to enjoy them at the time, she even bragged about tasting Sharon Tate's blood to other inmates. If she can become a "good person", why can't all psychopaths change? What makes her special? Personally, I think she's gotten much more sympathy only because she's a woman, she's born again and she's sick. If she were a male prisoner who converted to Islam and was healthy, no one would be advocating this release. Clifford Olsen could lead an exemplary life behind bars for 60 years and no one would claim he was cured and should be let out even if he couldn't ever harm another child. I don't get why someone who participated in killing at least 9 people should be let out. You can never even know which of her claims are true. Her version of things changed many times over the years. At first she candidly admitted to stabbing the victims... then after time in prison she said she never killed anyone with her own hands. She said she tasted Tate's blood.... then she said she didn't. She said she told Sharon Tate she had no mercy for her when she was begging for her life and stabbed her to stop her begging and moaning... then she said she didn't say that or do that. How can you trust someone who has lied so many times? After 40 years, she'll die of a brain tumour, just like Sharon Tate's mother oddly enough. In that time she may have changed as a person... or maybe she just became a better liar because she knew that was her only chance at getting out.

 

[Unforgiven]

Just remember who she is. I think you can change as a person but there are somethings that just never change. With Susan Atkins, there is a monster that makes up part of her personality. I don't think that can ever be changed. It's not like she will return to commit similar crimes, but she may talk about them and influence others.

Just remember who she is.

"Sadie really enjoyed killing Sharon Tate. She later claimed that it was the most exciting sexual experience in her life. She recalled how she felt an urge to drink her blood. "It was slick and I brought my hand to my face and I could smell the blood. I opened my mouth and licked it on my fingers..." She thought of carving out Tate's unborn child and bringing it to Charlie wrapped in a towel. "How proud Charlie would be if I presented him with the baby cut from the womb of the woman." She also considered cutting out the heart and eating it, and skewering the baby and roasting it in a bonfire."

 

[Risus]

If she's living better than many Californians, and assuming she is not a risk, I don't see the point in keeping her. If there is no extra pain inflicted either way, the present incarceration seems to be of no value to anyone.

Olsen is a sexual sadistic psychopath. I see no comparison to a woman brainwashed by a murderous nutcase.

I suppose at this juncture the families of those killed are the ones who are in the best moral position to deny her request. If doing so is what they need to do then sobeit.

Thats right. Its not up to someone sitting somewhere on his high horse.

Letting someone go just by assuming they are not a risk is silly. The value of the incarceration is the punishment for the crime.

And whether she was brainwashed or not, she still knew right from wrong.

 

[Curiosity]

Hard not to respond to the interesting and diverse opinions here.

Article worth a glance at:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-atkins14-2008jun14,0,5380790.story

Atkins killed Tate and her unborn child - two weeks previously she killed musician Gary Hinman, and a few days later took part in the LaBianca murders although she was not
convicted of those.

She was a serial killer - but is remembered primarily for Sharon Tate's murder.

Re the cost of her keep - whether she is incarcerated or living outside the public will pay her medical care and respite - I doubt her family will contribute - it would be very expensive and perhaps that is why the authorities would prefer she not spend her last months under specialized medical care in their facility.

The Supreme Court of California rescinded the death penalty - Atkins was serving only a life sentence - not the original death sentence and because of this parole hearings are routine.

I make no judgments - only to reflect on what a terrible life she and her companions chose for themselves.

 

[EagleSmack]

Just one more comment:

The penalties for the crimes Charles Manson's group committed were not a secret. Killing someone in cold blood was a capital crime, and in most states, they would have got the death penalty. It can't be said that the murders were any kind of accident, or that there was any kind of mitigating circumstance. They invaded homes, and brutally, mutilated and killed people. We all know this of course but I can't agree with anything other than easing her suffering in her last days in the prison.

They did receive the Death Penalty but before their sentences were carried out the US Supreme Court ruled that Capital Punishment was considered cruel and unusual punishment. Years later they reveresed the ruling but anyone that was on Death Row got their sentences commuted.

 

[EagleSmack]

It isn't neccessarily about revenge as it is about Crime & Punishment. She commited brutal and heinous crimes, the murder of Sharon Tate being one of them. By her own words as Sharon Tate begged for her life and that of her unborn childs...

"Look b---h...I have no pity for you...you're going to die."

 

[Praxius]

It isn't neccessarily about revenge as it is about Crime & Punishment. She commited brutal and heinous crimes, the murder of Sharon Tate being one of them. By her own words as Sharon Tate begged for her life and that of her unborn childs...

"Look b---h...I have no pity for you...you're going to die."

Agreed.... but some people think Punishment is Revenge..... honestly, how else do people learn something they did was wrong if you don't punish them in the first place? How do you send the message to other potiential mindless killers that this sort of behavior will not be tollerated?

She already took away this womans life.... I imagine that was plenty of enough suffering for her family, and we all know of the reports and comments of victims' families being traumatized or constantly fearful when the killer is released.... and I imagine most in her family is about as old. Why should thier remaining years be in more agony, just to suit Susan's sad life that she made herself?

 

[EagleSmack]

This is a short Youtube clip... about 7 mins from a made for TV movie showing the murders based on Susan Atkins Grand Jury testimony.

 

[Risus]

Agreed.... but some people think Punishment is Revenge..... honestly, how else do people learn something they did was wrong if you don't punish them in the first place? How do you send the message to other potiential mindless killers that this sort of behavior will not be tollerated?

She already took away this womans life.... I imagine that was plenty of enough suffering for her family, and we all know of the reports and comments of victims' families being traumatized or constantly fearful when the killer is released.... and I imagine most in her family is about as old. Why should thier remaining years be in more agony, just to suit Susan's sad life that she made herself?

What about the agony of the families of those she murdered? Give me a break... Let her rot in prison.

 

[EagleSmack]

What about the agony of the families of those she murdered? Give me a greak... Let her rot in prison.

I think Prax is in agreement with you.

 

[Praxius]

What about the agony of the families of those she murdered? Give me a greak... Let her rot in prison.

I'd give you a Greak or a Greek even if I knew of any near where I live would would take up the offer to be one of your possesions, but alas I can not do this for you.

I can give you a break however.