I approve this message :thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft:
Spiritual Warfare - Personal Observations
- Thread starter CanadianLove
- Start date
Is what you say true? How can I be sure it's the truth if it's only "relevant to the beholder"? Is this not just your opinion or should I take what you say as true/correct.
If you can tell me that you're speaking the truth, and not an opinion, I'll renounce God right now on the forum in front of everyone.
You kinda miss the point. Yes, what I said was my truth, which is only an opinion to you. And no, I am not expecting you to stop believing in your god. I am saying that your belief is only relevant to you and that in order for you to have that right, you should be willing to allow that others have a right to their beliefs. You may be right to you but not necessarily to someone else.
What I am saying is that proselytizing about your beliefs and trying to convert others to your beliefs is very arrogant and self righteous and that Jesus specifically singled those kind of people out to be excluded from his kingdom. I really think it is unwise to think you are right and anybody else is wrong.
I missed no such point you attempted to make. You can't even acknowledge what your saying as truth. Newsflash: There's either no god in control of the whole universe including all people, or there is a god in control of the whole universe including all people. NOT I have a God, and Cliffy doesn't.
You don't expect it because you know it is very unlikely to happen. Every man, you, me, cherishes his right to think and choose what he believes. Not to mention what to say and how to express it
Why is only relevant to me? Because you see it as false? If I didn't believe that man landed on the moon, and you had a mountain evidence to convince me, would that not be relevant information I need.
No!? Really!? Why is it that atheists clearly cherish their right to believe and say what they want, yet they can't admit that their own will has anything to do with it? Do you, or do you not HAVE THE RIGHT to believe in or NOT believe in God and Jesus?
You can ONLY say that because you obviously don't believe in absolute truth. How can it be right(true) for me, but not for you? If I die tonight I meet Jesus, if you die tonight you cease to exist? If my neighbor dies tonight he meets Mohammed in heaven?
You have no clue what your talking about. Jesus whole mission was to bring all of mankind reconciled with God, both through his teachings and mainly through his death and resurecction. Did he not tell the fishermen to "drop your nets, and I will make you fisher of men"?
Here you can clearly see how little you know about what Jesus said. He didn't come to exclude anybody. "anyone who believes in me, though he dies he shall live..."
What he did was warn the religious priests(among others like the rich merchant)that their self righteous attitudes were excluding them from the kingdom. Again, their own will.
Wow! How profound Cliffy! Are you trying to tell me that I'm wrong?!?!?!?
How can I take anything you say seriously? Your trying to tell me that your way of thinking is correct(all statements are affirmations)and therefore mine isn't. And then you end it with the above quote. Don't you think its unwise to think you are right and anybody else is wrong????
Last edited:
Sorry bout the bad grammar Cliffy, I'll have to read your reply tomorrow, bed time.
First off, belief is not knowing. God is an unknowable entity. The infinite is unknowable to our finite, minuscule minds. Can a piece of dust that lands on your shirt know who you are?
As I have said before, nothing is just black and white. Because I don't believe the same as you doesn't negate what you believe. I have never said you are wrong or that I am right. I said I am right to me and you are right to you. That you believe there are absolute truths does not make it so and that I don't does not make impossible.
Only a small minority of people believe as you do. The vast majority of people belong to other religions like Buddhism, Hindu, Shintoism or Muslim. By your declarations, are they all wrong? Because you believe in the bible, does that make all the other holy books wrong? Who gave you the right to say that what you believe is superior to what everybody else believes or doesn't believe?
Do you have insider status with god? Does he tell you that you are a chosen one because you promote his cause? Arrogance and self righteousness are not qualities that are either enlightened or appealing. People have a right to their religious opinions. Just because they don't agree with yours (and yours are just opinion to everybody else) does not make them wrong or in opposition to god.
As I have said before, nothing is just black and white. Because I don't believe the same as you doesn't negate what you believe. I have never said you are wrong or that I am right. I said I am right to me and you are right to you. That you believe there are absolute truths does not make it so and that I don't does not make impossible.
Only a small minority of people believe as you do. The vast majority of people belong to other religions like Buddhism, Hindu, Shintoism or Muslim. By your declarations, are they all wrong? Because you believe in the bible, does that make all the other holy books wrong? Who gave you the right to say that what you believe is superior to what everybody else believes or doesn't believe?
Do you have insider status with god? Does he tell you that you are a chosen one because you promote his cause? Arrogance and self righteousness are not qualities that are either enlightened or appealing. People have a right to their religious opinions. Just because they don't agree with yours (and yours are just opinion to everybody else) does not make them wrong or in opposition to god.
I don't know any other way to do this, so I'm just going to repeat this post from another thread:
A promise in the bible is to seek and ye shall find. I have talked with people from a variety of religious, spiritual and philosophical persuasions and all have gone through the same process that we all go through. Question, seek answers and I noticed that they all ended up in different places, believing in something different from the others.
How can this be. One is a Buddhist, one a Baptist, and Pentecostal, a Mormon, a Baha'i, an atheist. I was led to the Native American spirituality because, living in the forest, it just made more sense. Either the bible is lying or people are led to what they can assimilate into their beliefs and their lives. Perhaps there are universal truths but they can be expressed in many different ways.
It is my contention that the truth was given to all people at all geographical locations throughout all the historical time frames. They were given it in terms they could understand, in their language, in reference to the things that were part of the environment and daily activities.
Nobody's version, translation or interpretation is any better or more sanctified than anybody else's. Religion ruins the spirit of the truth by making it dogmatic and exclusive. "My religion is better than your religion. My god is more powerful than your god!" What a bunch of juvenile stupidity. If you believe your god favours you more than any other people, you are a racist and an egotistical elitist. And that is exactly the motivation for going out and prosthilatizing your brand of dogma.
Your belief is your belief. It is only really relevant to you. The need to drag someone else into your little exclusive circle jerk is based on insecurity; a belief system built on quicksand. I recall that Jesus chastized the self righteous. They will be the first ones to be rejected.
A promise in the bible is to seek and ye shall find. I have talked with people from a variety of religious, spiritual and philosophical persuasions and all have gone through the same process that we all go through. Question, seek answers and I noticed that they all ended up in different places, believing in something different from the others.
How can this be. One is a Buddhist, one a Baptist, and Pentecostal, a Mormon, a Baha'i, an atheist. I was led to the Native American spirituality because, living in the forest, it just made more sense. Either the bible is lying or people are led to what they can assimilate into their beliefs and their lives. Perhaps there are universal truths but they can be expressed in many different ways.
It is my contention that the truth was given to all people at all geographical locations throughout all the historical time frames. They were given it in terms they could understand, in their language, in reference to the things that were part of the environment and daily activities.
Nobody's version, translation or interpretation is any better or more sanctified than anybody else's. Religion ruins the spirit of the truth by making it dogmatic and exclusive. "My religion is better than your religion. My god is more powerful than your god!" What a bunch of juvenile stupidity. If you believe your god favours you more than any other people, you are a racist and an egotistical elitist. And that is exactly the motivation for going out and prosthilatizing your brand of dogma.
Your belief is your belief. It is only really relevant to you. The need to drag someone else into your little exclusive circle jerk is based on insecurity; a belief system built on quicksand. I recall that Jesus chastized the self righteous. They will be the first ones to be rejected.
I missed no such point you attempted to make. You can't even acknowledge what your saying as truth. Newsflash: There's either no god in control of the whole universe including all people, or there is a god in control of the whole universe including all people. NOT I have a God, and Cliffy doesn't.
This is what I'm talking about - black and white. You understand what I said from your rigid and dogmatic beliefs, but you have no idea what I meant. And there are shades of gray between no god and god as you know "him". There are personal and impersonal, gods and goddesses, there are god(dess)s that take an active roll in human lives and there are those who sit back and watch our pathetic attempts at being intelligent.
The main difference between you and me is that you take other people's beliefs as an attack on yours. Because I think differently than you do, you see my opinion as a threat. I, on the other hand like to hear other opinions. I am not threatened by other beliefs because I am secure in my own beliefs.
My beliefs are constantly growing and changing as new experiences present themselves. They are dynamic. Those of most religious people are rigid and dogmatic, almost petrified by being stuck in a long past era. Although christian beliefs have changed some over the last two thousand years, that change has taken them farther and farther away from the original spirit of the teachings.
You automatically assume that I am an atheist just because my beliefs do not coincide with yours. This tells me that your view is is so inflexible, that you are blinded by your own self righteousness. You cannot accept that others could be right, because that would mean that you might be wrong, and that is a very scary place for someone who relies on one thing to prop them up in a shaky reality. Thus I am left to conclude that your belief system is built on quicksand.
This is what I'm talking about - black and white. You understand what I said from your rigid and dogmatic beliefs, but you have no idea what I meant. And there are shades of gray between no god and god as you know "him". There are personal and impersonal, gods and goddesses, there are god(dess)s that take an active roll in human lives and there are those who sit back and watch our pathetic attempts at being intelligent.
The main difference between you and me is that you take other people's beliefs as an attack on yours. Because I think differently than you do, you see my opinion as a threat. I, on the other hand like to hear other opinions. I am not threatened by other beliefs because I am secure in my own beliefs.
My beliefs are constantly growing and changing as new experiences present themselves. They are dynamic. Those of most religious people are rigid and dogmatic, almost petrified by being stuck in a long past era. Although christian beliefs have changed some over the last two thousand years, that change has taken them farther and farther away from the original spirit of the teachings.
You automatically assume that I am an atheist just because my beliefs do not coincide with yours. This tells me that your view is is so inflexible, that you are blinded by your own self righteousness. You cannot accept that others could be right, because that would mean that you might be wrong, and that is a very scary place for someone who relies on one thing to prop them up in a shaky reality. Thus I am left to conclude that your belief system is built on quicksand.
This proves to be a difficult debate for us. You and I are so far off it would take a concise debate to accomplish any enlightenment, involving more hours than I'm willing to contribute:
I argue the opposite of you. Since there is a God, there is truths about him, and it is possible to know these truths.
Whew! You had a lot for me read in your reply! Maybe this will turn into an admirable debate. lol, Can't you nudge a little on the whole 'relevant truth' thing? C'mon, gimme something to work with! ;-) I'll have to check your reply tomorrow. Later bud!
Let my keystrokes sink in: You just told me, that the only thing we know for SURE about God, is that we don't know anything about God at all. This is right along the lines of: The only absolute truth is - there are no absolute truths. Flawed Cliffy, seriously flawed. How about this one: I can't type a single word of English. Do you see something flawed with this logic?
I argue the opposite of you. Since there is a God, there is truths about him, and it is possible to know these truths.
I don't see your beliefs as an attack at all. Mainly because I have absolutely nothing to fear. Victory belongs to Christ, and I draw strength and protection from him. What I do see your type of beliefs as, is: blindness, spiritual rebellion, spiritual suppression, spiritual oppression...
You think a christian is incapable of this?! Gimme a break Cliffy!
I assume your an atheist because your posts clearly show how you willfully separate yourself from God.
What is up with this philosophy? Sound eastern...and obviously flawed. Ask Dex, he'll tell you how one is right, and the other wrong. Either the theist, or the atheist.
All God has told me is that he has a plan for me. Guess what? He has a plan for you too. He has plan for everyone. Only some choose follow that plan. As for promoting the cause, yeah, no kidding, God wants to bring sinners to him through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
That's right, your motives need to be in line with God's. You can't do it for yourself. That's why you must keep focus on Jesus and the message your conveying focused on him. Jesus has done the following for me: washed away my sins and made me right with God, healed my body, restored me, gave me wisdom, gave me strength...etc. Its important to give all the glory to him, because its through him, and his name we have these wonderful blessings! And that's how one stays off self righteousness, by giving the glory to Christ and speaking of the wonderful things he has done in your life. Personally speaking, if at any times I have been self righteous, the holy spirit is quick to speak to my heart and refocus my attention where it should be.
Whew! You had a lot for me read in your reply! Maybe this will turn into an admirable debate. lol, Can't you nudge a little on the whole 'relevant truth' thing? C'mon, gimme something to work with! ;-) I'll have to check your reply tomorrow. Later bud!
Last edited:
A born again type got in my face one day and said, " BUT DO YOU KNOW JEEEEEZUZ!!!"
I calmly replied, "Yes I do. He is a good friend of mine and he tells me that he is royally pissed off at you for being a pushy self righteous dick."
I calmly replied, "Yes I do. He is a good friend of mine and he tells me that he is royally pissed off at you for being a pushy self righteous dick."
Let me try to explain it this way. Mhz said the other day that his interpretation of the bible is literal. That the meaning is obvious to anybody who reads any particular passage. You seem to follow the fundie line of interpretation, which I see as being lunatic fringe.
Eannasir views the same passage from his point of view and a mormon would see it differently. And we all know that the JWs see it differently even more. So, if the passages in the bible are straight forward and easily understood, how come there are litterally thousands of different interpretations of the same passages?
The bible isn't clear at all because the translations today are no where near to the original writings. All modern translations are based on Greek translations of the original arramaic which for some strange reason have disappeared. Then there is the fact that Constantine decided what early christian writings were to be included into the bible and which were not, all for personal political reasons. The man was not even a christian, and did not convert until he lay dying.
Then there is the problem, for fundies in particular, that it was a synod of catholic bishops that did the dirty deed at Constantine's bequest. The catholic church, which most fundies believe is the most corrupt religious organization in the world, gave you the bible. The reformation changed the translation once again, to cancel out the catholic power over tham. Again, the bible was altered to support a different political agenda.
Now you base your who life and belief system on an incredibly flawed book, with an incredibly flawed translation and you have the audacity to tell me my logic is flawed. You make me laugh.
Eannasir views the same passage from his point of view and a mormon would see it differently. And we all know that the JWs see it differently even more. So, if the passages in the bible are straight forward and easily understood, how come there are litterally thousands of different interpretations of the same passages?
The bible isn't clear at all because the translations today are no where near to the original writings. All modern translations are based on Greek translations of the original arramaic which for some strange reason have disappeared. Then there is the fact that Constantine decided what early christian writings were to be included into the bible and which were not, all for personal political reasons. The man was not even a christian, and did not convert until he lay dying.
Then there is the problem, for fundies in particular, that it was a synod of catholic bishops that did the dirty deed at Constantine's bequest. The catholic church, which most fundies believe is the most corrupt religious organization in the world, gave you the bible. The reformation changed the translation once again, to cancel out the catholic power over tham. Again, the bible was altered to support a different political agenda.
Now you base your who life and belief system on an incredibly flawed book, with an incredibly flawed translation and you have the audacity to tell me my logic is flawed. You make me laugh.
thrreads like these go around in circles real fast
El Barto, ol' buddy. You is exactly right. But sometimes the brain, like the dick, needs a little stimulation. I see by your avatar that you are a confused member. I would say that you are rather clear in your confusion, at least clearer than most.;-)
Well, there's probably several reasons for that. First of all, there isn't thousands upon thousands of interpretations of the same passage, granted many, but not thousands. Secondly, the reasons for those different interpretations are man made, not God made. You know as well as I, that religion is nothing more than man's pitiful attempt to define or reach out to God. And all those man made interpretations all have their own reasons for their creation: self-righteous, ignorance, dark influence etc.
So don't tell me what others say about God, tell me what you think about God. You read the passages and tell me what they mean. Is Jesus God, or is he a mere prophet?
First, we know that the English is accurate because we can translate from the Greek. Most importantly however, we obviously know that since its God's word, he surely would protect it. Even the story about creation, that would have been passed down orally for a long time, God watching over us making sure we tell the full story of how he created the universe. Even if the original Aramaic texts were here you would still dispute it.
Luckily the RCC isn't the highest authority in the universe, so let them have whatever agenda they want.
I know your logic is flawed. Allow me to demonstrate:smile:...
All those reasons must be bad?
I bet there are a few interpretations that are different simply because of the timelines between them. The context of one passage may be a bit different 2000 years ago than the context today, for instance.
IMO, neither existed or exist.
English has changed over the centuries, so I can imagine Greek has, too. And as I said, something written with a particular context 2000 years ago may have lost that context by now.
I know no such thing. So it isn't all that obvious.
The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry - Bob Burns. So I don't care how carefully stories are orally handed down from decade to decade, it's extremely unlikely to be the same after hundreds of years.
So don't tell me what others say about God, tell me what you think about God. You read the passages and tell me what they mean. Is Jesus God, or is he a mere prophet?
Those are silly questions.I have stated clearly that I do not believe the bible is anything more than badly written fables and out right plagiarism of ancient stories from other cultures. There is nothing in it that leads me to believe that the god described is any more than some tyrannical leader that existed in very ancient history who had sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies.
On the other hand, there are gods of true compassion from many different cultures, among them the Great Spirit of our very own aboriginal peoples. They have much to teach us about a lot of things. Of course they also had their superstitions and demons to which I do not subscribe.
Buddhists meditate in hopes of some day reaching Nivana - a state of oneness in which we become one with god/universe. It is a state that I have experienced but is not one that can be sustained while staying in material form. But it is an experience that shapes my concept of reality. God is just a word, an image of something that is beyond our minds to comprehend. But on a cellular level, we can know the truth; feel it, integrate it.
There is no need to give it a name or bow down and kiss its butt. It demands nothing of us nor does it judge us. It is, for lack of a better way to describe it, the energy that animates the universe, the glue that holds it all together.
Those are silly questions.I have stated clearly that I do not believe the bible is anything more than badly written fables and out right plagiarism of ancient stories from other cultures. There is nothing in it that leads me to believe that the god described is any more than some tyrannical leader that existed in very ancient history who had sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies.
On the other hand, there are gods of true compassion from many different cultures, among them the Great Spirit of our very own aboriginal peoples. They have much to teach us about a lot of things. Of course they also had their superstitions and demons to which I do not subscribe.
Buddhists meditate in hopes of some day reaching Nivana - a state of oneness in which we become one with god/universe. It is a state that I have experienced but is not one that can be sustained while staying in material form. But it is an experience that shapes my concept of reality. God is just a word, an image of something that is beyond our minds to comprehend. But on a cellular level, we can know the truth; feel it, integrate it.
There is no need to give it a name or bow down and kiss its butt. It demands nothing of us nor does it judge us. It is, for lack of a better way to describe it, the energy that animates the universe, the glue that holds it all together.
Watch and listen to this, takes about 20 minutes. It would appear that all you have to do is shut down some of the higher cognitive and logical functions of the left side of your brain and let the right side dominate for a while. I'd bet further research would show that techniques like Buddhist meditation, TM, even something as mundane as saying the rosary, have an autohypnotic effect that does exactly that in varying degrees. Every brain is unique, so it seems reasonable to further suppose that those techniques will be more easily learned by and work better for some people than others.