Socialism Is the Only Way

[darkbeaver]

Care to supply some proof of all the jobs we lost DB...

Cause there are tons of stats on the sectors that grew quite well after the Free Trade agreement. With better pay even.

Or is just saying we lost lost lost your arguement?

That set the stage for how Washington politicians sized up Clinton. He was seen as devoid of modest political courage, a blurrer of differences with the Republican opposition party and anything but the decisive transforming leader he promised to be was he to win the election.

He proceeded, instead, to take credit for developments with which he had very little to do with such as the economic growth propelled by the huge technology dot.com boom.

Bragging about millions of jobs his Administration created, he neglected to note that incomes stagnated for 80% of the workers in the country and ended in 2000, under the level of 1973, adjusted for inflation.

A brainy White House assistant to Mr. Clinton told me in 1997 that the only real achievement his boss could take credit for was passage of legislation allowing 12 weeks family leave, without pay.

There are changes both the Clinton Administration actively championed that further entrenched corporate power over our economy and government during the decade. He pushed through Congress the NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO) agreements that represented the greatest surrender in our history of local, state and national sovereignty to an autocratic, secretive system of transnational governance. This system subordinated workers, consumers and the environment to the supremacy of globalized commerce.

That was just for starters. Between 1996 and 2000, he drove legislation through Congress that concentrated more power in the hands of giant agribusiness, large telecommunications companies and the biggest jackpot-opening the doors to gigantic mergers in the financial industry. The latter so-called "financial modernization law" sowed the permissive seeds for taking vast financial risks with other peoples' money (ie. pensioners and investors) that is now shaking the economy to recession.

The man who pulled off this demolition of regulatory experience from the lessons of the Great Depression was Clinton's Treasury Secretary, Robert Rubin, who went to work for Citigroup-the main pusher of this oligopolistic coup-just before the bill passed and made himself $40 million for a few months of consulting in that same year.

Bill Clinton's presidential resume was full of favors for the rich and powerful. Corporate welfare subsidies, handouts and giveaways flourished, including subsidizing the Big Three Auto companies for a phony research partnership while indicating there would be no new fuel efficiency regulations while he was President.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19191.htm

 

[smdfaru]

TAM255

Before I got into understanding the social relationship of workers in society, someone related this to me.

10 men get marooned on an uninhabited island. 1 man has a chest of gold and 9 men have nothing but a few simple tools. Go figure who has the most signifigance.
Looking at it from that perspective gives one an idea on who were the most important in the development of America and North America.

The division between those who own the means of production, tools and raw materials, and those who own nothing but their ability to expend labor time in the operation of tools and machines for production, did not evolve in these two territories in isolation.

Europe had long went through a bloody process of seperating the means of production from the producers. That accumulated wealth was interjected into America and North America to hasten that seperation there, just as feudal Japan, in a much shorter time, evolved into a powerful captialist country, through the interjection of accumulated wealth from the capitalist classes of Europe and the United States.

Class divided society did not begin to emerge because some had superior intelligence. It begin by those who could wield the biggest club--all blood and guts. It has been downhill ever since for workers. In modern capitalist society, wielding the biggest club no longer holds sway. Now its the law. As an old saying goes, "Ownership is nine tenths of the law," and workers will pay hell before they ever get a substantial piece of the action under capitalism.

In the beginning, a move was made against the Indians until everything was stripped from them. Then, a move was made against the farmers and tradesmen, converting them into wage slaves.

Now we see the third stage, with the American workers, through global outsourcing, being converted into a type of "freeman" such as in ancient Rome. There, the ever growing bloted population of non-producers were succored by the Empire. Presently, in the United States, a similiar reversal is taking place. The number of workers needed to provide the capitalist class with wealth, continuously decreases, and the number of displaced workers that need to be succored by the capitalist class, continuously rises.

Might the top heavy weight of that condition bust the US capitalist system just it did with the Roman Empire, time will tell. Right now, one thing is for sure, sales of merchindise by the capitalist class is taking a big hit. Pay workers less and they buy less. Buying with plastic has its limits.

Don

 

[TAM255]

10 men get marooned on an uninhabited island. 1 man has a chest of gold and 9 men have nothing but a few simple tools. Go figure who has the most signifigance.
Looking at it from that perspective gives one an idea on who were the most important in the development of America and North America.

The reason why the gold has a value to the 9 worker is the demand. And your island cannot be cut off of the rest of the world, otherwise, it has no value at all. So the gold has a value because someone else has something to offer for it. Now the only reason why gold could have a value in this case would be because gold is a luxuries. So in ANY case, if you want to have a value for your gold, you need a king with people working for him. This king can produce things with his people and then sell it for gold. Because this king prefer luxuries over the well being of his people. So at the end, you always need a state,government,king to give a value to gold. And this leader(s) has an intelligence or a lack of intelligence that make us evolute from anarchy to civilization. And since I'm a strong believer, I don't need to tell you who is I think is under this. Say the king is intelligent or not, he is doing the good thing, on purpose or not, and I doubt it was on purpose. I think, in the present it's on a purpose thought.

 

[Toro]

Avro

Just keep it up and I am sure that Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler will keep a warm spot waiting for you. Most likely Castro will beat you to the happy hunting grounds and join in with the other four preparing for you arrival. Between the 5 of of them they haven't got enough powder to blow themselves out of their anti-Marxiam bed fellow stance and it appears that you don't have a nit to help them out.

Don

Right, because Stalin, Mao and Castro weren't implementing real Marxism. Instead, they bastardized the musty theoretical doctrine about what should happen in Utopian society.

Never mind that it never seems to occur to the Marxist/socialist Sirens of the ivory towers - whether they're decamped at the University or living The Life in a third world jungle somewhere - that this is what happens when real, live, breathing human beings attempt to implement their doctrinaire paradise.

By this standard, I decree that free market capitalism has never existed, thus invalidating all the criticisms since the dawn of time from the Left, as true free market capitalism has been corrupted by those, er, whadya call 'em? Oh yeah, "people."

Ayn Rand, where art thou?

 

[CDNBear]

What is the sanctity of Socialism? For that matter, I never suggested that I was a socialist, only that socialism never existed in the country or countries that you referred to.

I referred to some countries?

You hoist your anti-marxist flag just as Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini and Pinochet did. If you haven't counted, that is six flags. Which flags or flags qualify the most.

Don

No, I stand under the umbrella of intellect and education, in full certainty that Socialism has and will continue to fail, until man has reach such evolutionary hights, as to appreciate its fellow mans position.

Having read your words, and DB, as well as a few others around here, questioning the endowed wisdon of you free thinkers would garner me and anyone like me a non person status in your new world order.

Questioning the elite is not tolerated.

From the frying pan, into the fire.

That growing economy grew out of the workers pockets , it did not come from non existant manufacturing jobs requiring skilled trades. The growth in the GDP is was not translated into increased real income for the working class.

Cuz yous say so DB...I'll take the economists words for it over yours anyday. If only because the economists have never claimed to wish the downfall of anyone.

Sanity begs my appreciation.

What you know of socialism or history ammounts to a thin colouring book issued by the Canadian armed farces.

Of course, no proof, stifled by historic proof, so again, back to the lowest form of debate...

We call this the DB shuffle.

We being the lil socialist mouse in my pocket, I call him Tito.

My main thrust was that you and Avon had something in common with--who? Despots and fascists who were bashers of socialism. If I need to posit proof of the crimes against the working class that they committed, then it is a stark indication of the lack of historical knowledge you and Avon have.

Don

His name is "Avro", perhaps getting a better grip on your ablity to read or write would be a good start.

Now on to more of your seemingly cryptic jibberish...

I need no history lessons, especially from someoone so blinded by the historic facts of the Socialist movement, as you are.

If you are not a Socialist, you have certainly sucked back enough of the 'killer KGB Koolaid', to void your own arguement.

Hence the continuous projection and avoidance of proving Avro or I wrong.

Just more..."you don't know what you are talking about" BS. Which leads me to continue to believe you and your ilk, would if fate so dictated, subject the masses to a complete and utter failure of a form of Gov't. Usurping free thought for that of the Ultimate Nanny State, because as you and DB have espoused so iluminatingly here..."We just know better".

Not that that is backed up with anything resembling fact, evidence, proof or otherwise...

"Just cuz we say so!!!"

Sorry Don, doesn't wash in the real world. Like it or not.

It's a crying shame Don the young minds ruined by uneducation and the brainwashing of our capitalist system to the point where they would kiss the likes of Pinochet. The same type would sell there grannys.

Or send them off for retraining cuz they see through the lies, deceit and empty promisses of the new orld order you cling to at the detriment of all reality.

Are you guys Anarcho-syndicalists?

No...I actually think they're Scientologists.

Right on. Not even a capitalist would be bold enough utter such words. But why should they, when underlings do it for nothing.

Don

Utter what?

Ask you to support your theories that Socialism is better the Capitalism?

If asking is a crime in this free society, what will it be in your Utopia?

btw...I'm not a supporter of the present Capitalist movement...but don't let that stop you from LABELLING me.

Socialism, as you mean it darkbeaver, always leads to corruption; its a flawed system. It may look good on paper, so does a benevolent dictatorship (which looks even better).

But neither one has a hope in hell of suceeding.

Shush heritic, you know not what you say, the free steel wheels of Socialism are the only ones worth being crushed under.

That set the stage for how Washington politicians sized up Clinton.

And the last time I checked, yep....we were discussing Canada.

But don't let that stop you from posting more misdirection, that's the Socialist way.

Smoke and mirrors to fool the unwashed masses into buying your brand of Dianetics.

Right, because Stalin, Mao and Castro weren't implementing real Marxism. Instead, they bastardized the musty theoretical doctrine about what should happen in Utopian society.

Never mind that it never seems to occur to the Marxist/socialist Sirens of the ivory towers - whether they're decamped at the University or living The Life in a third world jungle somewhere - that this is what happens when real, live, breathing human beings attempt to implement their doctrinaire paradise.

By this standard, I decree that free market capitalism has never existed, thus invalidating all the criticisms since the dawn of time from the Left, as true free market capitalism has been corrupted by those, er, whadya call 'em? Oh yeah, "people."

Ayn Rand, where art thou?

Bravo!!!

 

[darkbeaver]

Toro, Ayn Rand is dead, Freidman is dead, Reagan is dead, free market capitalism is dead. Nobody disputes the power of what was called "free market capitalism". Accumulation and concentration of wealth are not what the species require however. You may defend free market capitalism right to the bitter end but I wonder what or who you will blame as the reason for the present pending collapse. Real live human beings are responsible for the carnage in the markets today, those real live, breathing human beings (free market capitalist) are responsible for the destruction and death and poisoning of this planet by the same human implimentation you have indicated, useing the tool of "free capitalism'. How is it you see success where there is only abject failure and very real pending doom? Just a look at the books of America (the beacon of capitalism) indicates pending complete and total ruin for the corner stone of "free market capitalism". So where do you get the enthusiasm? Just another mistaken failed implemtation of "doctrinaire paradise" of another flavour eh. It will be interesting to watch the market tomorrow, they can run but they can't hide.bawhahahahah:lol:

 

[CDNBear]

Toro, Ayn Rand is dead, Freidman is dead, Reagan is dead, free market capitalism is dead. Nobody disputes the power of what was called "free market capitalism". Accumulation and concentration of wealth are not what the species require however. You may defend free market capitalism right to the bitter end but I wonder what or who you will blame as the reason for the present pending collapse. Real live human beings are responsible for the carnage in the markets today, those real live, breathing human beings (free market capitalist) are responsible for the destruction and death and poisoning of this planet by the same human implimentation you have indicated, useing the tool of "free capitalism'. How is it you see success where there is only abject failure and very real pending doom? Just a look at the books of America (the beacon of capitalism) indicates pending complete and total ruin for the corner stone of "free market capitalism". So where do you get the enthusiasm? Just another mistaken failed implemtation of "doctrinaire paradise" of another flavour eh. It will be interesting to watch the market tomorrow, they can run but they can't hide.bawhahahahah:lol:

So as one extreme is exposed to light and begins to show signs of failure, you wish to drive us headlong into another extreme with greater historicaly projected death tolls?

Good think DB...go on shuffle, you deserve it for that.

 

[darkbeaver]

So as one extreme is exposed to light and begins to show signs of failure, you wish to drive us headlong into another extreme with greater historicaly projected death tolls?

Good think DB...go on shuffle, you deserve it for that.

I wish for nothing of the sort. Where do you get your "historical projected death tolls" when you routinely ignore the death tolls of capitalism sweeping them under the rug like they don't exist. It is exactly the source of death tolls and the misery of humanity caused in greater part in the last century and the first decade of this century by the extremism of free capital that you either do not see or simply refuse to acknowedge. I advocate for humans Bear not for any ideology based on money, greed or power of the elite, and that is most certainly free market capitalism, a failed repeated exercise in theft and murder conducted by monsters and thieves in suits. You constantly accuse of extremism while you at the exact same time support another flavour of it, seemingly unaware of who or what you advocate for.Capitalism revealed it's ideological flaws a very long time ago, the present difficultys are by no means new or a surprise to anyone who has even a tiny understanding of what capitalism is. It always goes this way, the failure is built in by mathmatics it actually has no result other than the one we are witnessing today. It cannot do anything other than what it's doing right now.

 

[TAM255]

What you are talking about darkbeaver is not a free-market economy with capitalism, it's a mercantile economy with capitalism. And it can't work without imperialism.

There is no option over capitalism, I don't believe anarchy/free-market could work and the death tolls would much greater. If the corporation has not the power it has, I think capitalism with free-market could be very good. If they could at least stay inside their border.

 

[Kreskin]

That set the stage for how Washington politicians sized up Clinton. He was seen as devoid of modest political courage, a blurrer of differences with the Republican opposition party and anything but the decisive transforming leader he promised to be was he to win the election.

He proceeded, instead, to take credit for developments with which he had very little to do with such as the economic growth propelled by the huge technology dot.com boom.

Bragging about millions of jobs his Administration created, he neglected to note that incomes stagnated for 80% of the workers in the country and ended in 2000, under the level of 1973, adjusted for inflation.

A brainy White House assistant to Mr. Clinton told me in 1997 that the only real achievement his boss could take credit for was passage of legislation allowing 12 weeks family leave, without pay.

There are changes both the Clinton Administration actively championed that further entrenched corporate power over our economy and government during the decade. He pushed through Congress the NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO) agreements that represented the greatest surrender in our history of local, state and national sovereignty to an autocratic, secretive system of transnational governance. This system subordinated workers, consumers and the environment to the supremacy of globalized commerce.

That was just for starters. Between 1996 and 2000, he drove legislation through Congress that concentrated more power in the hands of giant agribusiness, large telecommunications companies and the biggest jackpot-opening the doors to gigantic mergers in the financial industry. The latter so-called "financial modernization law" sowed the permissive seeds for taking vast financial risks with other peoples' money (ie. pensioners and investors) that is now shaking the economy to recession.

The man who pulled off this demolition of regulatory experience from the lessons of the Great Depression was Clinton's Treasury Secretary, Robert Rubin, who went to work for Citigroup-the main pusher of this oligopolistic coup-just before the bill passed and made himself $40 million for a few months of consulting in that same year.

Bill Clinton's presidential resume was full of favors for the rich and powerful. Corporate welfare subsidies, handouts and giveaways flourished, including subsidizing the Big Three Auto companies for a phony research partnership while indicating there would be no new fuel efficiency regulations while he was President.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19191.htm

Hey Beave, when long distance telephone was a monopoly around here we were paying about $1 a minute. That was about 30 years ago. Would you rather have it that way or let free enterprise compete and develop cheaper systems for the consumer? You probably pay less than 10% for long distance today than you did 30 years ago.

The technology revolution was built by people who had a reason to research and develop it. That being wealth creation. No one is going to give a rats butt about what the government or military needs if they can't make money at it themselves. The next wave of advancement won't come from people getting paid $10 per hour writing code for a socialist government. It will come from people with dreams, and not just a vision of collecting their next bi-weekly paycheque.

 

[CDNBear]

I wish for nothing of the sort. Where do you get your "historical projected death tolls" when you routinely ignore the death tolls of capitalism sweeping them under the rug like they don't exist. It is exactly the source of death tolls and the misery of humanity caused in greater part in the last century and the first decade of this century by the extremism of free capital that you either do not see or simply refuse to acknowedge. I advocate for humans Bear not for any ideology based on money, greed or power of the elite, and that is most certainly free market capitalism, a failed repeated exercise in theft and murder conducted by monsters and thieves in suits. You constantly accuse of extremism while you at the exact same time support another flavour of it, seemingly unaware of who or what you advocate for.Capitalism revealed it's ideological flaws a very long time ago, the present difficultys are by no means new or a surprise to anyone who has even a tiny understanding of what capitalism is. It always goes this way, the failure is built in by mathmatics it actually has no result other than the one we are witnessing today. It cannot do anything other than what it's doing right now.

And there it is...the DB shuffle in its purest forum...I (CDNBear) disagree with your (DB)extremist views and therefore I must be a supporter of Capitalism and I excuse, dismissed and willfully keep myself ignorant to the mass murder of millions of innocents under the guise of the free market.

BS DB...

I won't waste my time going through my many posts and the threads I've created, where I highlight and expose the cruelty and covert operations of the US policy of Manifest Destiny. Capitalist infections at their best.

They would only interfere with the petty lil LABEL you conjured up to categorise me, so you can excuse yourself of true free thought and continue to dismiss what you truly do not understand...moderation, negotiation, growth, co-operation and freedom.

Capitalism is surely guilty of mass murder, but Socialism is guilty of the exact same crime, ones death toll numbers do not negate the others, nor do they equate to a lessor evil.

What equates to a lessor evil is, the ablity under the freedom of the Capitalist west, is the fact that the common man CAN, and has climbed out of poverty. That freedom, as subject to question as it is, is still a apparent in our society. Where as in the history of Socialism, even the crumbs of freedom are the first to fall under the boot of Socialist supression.

In that lies the truly greater of both evils...Freedom.

Even the myth of being free is better then the misery of none.

Your inablity to accept others opinions, your inablity to stop yourself from insulting and dismissing those that disagree with your opinion as ignorant or what have you, is proof, that your ideology is still an imature excuse for a form of governance, let alone a society.

You lack the control.

Socialism is bound to fail, and it will as it has in the past, because it has been led by people just like you.

All dissents will quashed, by hook or by crook, but it will be quashed.

Your word betray you and show us you are no different then the "Capitalist pig dogs" you hate so very much. Your seathing hate filled rhetoric is what keeps the valiant ideology of a Society working as one, promoting all, in the rhelm of the fringe.

The true mantra of your extremist ideology should be...

"Ve have vays of makink you happy, zat you vill not like!"

 

[darkbeaver]

What you are talking about darkbeaver is not a free-market economy with capitalism, it's a mercantile economy with capitalism. And it can't work without imperialism.

There is no option over capitalism, I don't believe anarchy/free-market could work and the death tolls would much greater. If the corporation has not the power it has, I think capitalism with free-market could be very good. If they could at least stay inside their border.

I have no faith in capitalism of any kind, except it is subordinated and regulated as if it were poison. Freedom and democracy are enemys of capitalism. If in fact it was possible to control capitalism it would perhaps have been done by now. As long as the elites remain uncorrected capitalism can have no other outcome than what we witness right now, in fact without elimination of that elite clique no programe or ideology has any hope of sucess save brutal total fascism, which is precisely the direction and destination we are proceeding toward at the speed of the ruin of conquest and the ruin of the global market.

 

[TAM255]

I have no faith in capitalism of any kind, except it is subordinated and regulated as if it were poison. Freedom and democracy are enemys of capitalism. If in fact it was possible to control capitalism it would perhaps have been done by now. As long as the elites remain uncorrected capitalism can have no other outcome than what we witness right now, in fact without elimination of that elite clique no programe or ideology has any hope of sucess save brutal total fascism, which is precisely the direction and destination we are proceeding toward at the speed of the ruin of conquest and the ruin of the global market.

It's not that bad in Canada and we are capitalist. They live well in the u.s too. As for others nation that start to grow, I believe neo-liberalism in capitalism is the biggest joke ever. The current problem is too many people only act for the present instead of thinking for the future. This is what I call ultra-individualism. For the exploitation of the others country resource and worker, I'm not even sure if it's bad or good for them. Without it, they wouldn't have any chance of evolution and no financing in their region at all. Now, like I said, I'm not sure about this point. I think we live better in a civilization than a farm, even if this create a lot of exploiter. I think it would be better to build better housing and commodities than the stade olympique but it is possible to do?

There is a lot abuse but how can you pretend your system won't have any? Your system is going to change the nature of people? I don't think it can. Some people are nice, other are not. The reason can be their nature or their education. How can you change the nature of people? What the bad people is going to do in your system?

As for democracy, the opinion of people is always made up by others. How can someone make the good decision without knowing everything? I think a liberal democracy is the best because they chose what they can chose.

I have a question, do you want to abolish money?

 

[Toro]

Toro, Ayn Rand is dead, Freidman is dead, Reagan is dead, free market capitalism is dead. Nobody disputes the power of what was called "free market capitalism". Accumulation and concentration of wealth are not what the species require however. You may defend free market capitalism right to the bitter end but I wonder what or who you will blame as the reason for the present pending collapse. Real live human beings are responsible for the carnage in the markets today, those real live, breathing human beings (free market capitalist) are responsible for the destruction and death and poisoning of this planet by the same human implimentation you have indicated, useing the tool of "free capitalism'. How is it you see success where there is only abject failure and very real pending doom? Just a look at the books of America (the beacon of capitalism) indicates pending complete and total ruin for the corner stone of "free market capitalism". So where do you get the enthusiasm? Just another mistaken failed implemtation of "doctrinaire paradise" of another flavour eh. It will be interesting to watch the market tomorrow, they can run but they can't hide.bawhahahahah:lol:

I hope it goes down. I'll be running to the Lexus dealership if it continues doing so...:smile:

 

[Westerner]

Marxism and socialism cannot be justified simply because how can you substantiate using force against other men's free will? The only way to ensure these social courses is by imposing redistributive policies by force or threat of force on others without consent. I cannot see any justification for their statist prerogative and I was never one to believe in the old phrase or almost now a cliché “Two wrongs make a right.” To bring about their utopian fallacy they have to commit the wrongs that they are rallying against. This is no way to bring about equality of the people and is merely a subjection of them to the state's will either by some form of rule by the majority, minority, party, or other means. Thus socialism is just another vice for men to use to induce their own doctrines onto the world. ​

“It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action. The funds that a government spends for whatever purposes are levied by taxation. And taxes are paid because the taxpayers are afraid of offering resistance to the tax gatherers. They know that any disobedience or resistance is hopeless. As long as this is the state of affairs, the government is able to collect the money that it wants to spend. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.”​

Ludwig von Mises

 

[Toro]

Any man who quotes von Mises is obviously a man of high intellect and refined tastes.

 

[smdfaru]

CDNBear

you said:
"btw...I'm not a supporter of the present Capitalist movement...but don't let that stop you from LABELLING me."

I haven't labeled you. I merely stated that you had something in common with the scum balls and that rattles your cage. It is unfortionate that you can't bash socialism without putting yourself in that position.

Logically, when anyone rejects something they have a reason. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet and Castro rejected socialism to safeguard their status. You are inferring that some of the countries and some of these scum balls in those countries had socialism. For example: Stalin says, "I got socialism but I am going to resort to the most extreme measures--slaughter millions upon millions-- necessary to make sure it never happens." An oxymoran if there ever was one.

That is the standout of your numerous twisted comments.

By the way. Over 300,000 Russian miners contributed to bringing the Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics to its knees. The workers, suposedly having created a society of their desire, sets out to bring about the collapse of that very same society. Another oxymoran if there ever was one.

Don

 

[lone wolf]

Ever noticed how the most extreme of right (National Socialist German Workers' Party) and the most extreme of left (Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics) both bastardized the word "socialist" in order to legitimize their agendas? Might this be where man has learned to fear caring for social well-being of all mankind?

Woof!

 

[smdfaru]

lone wolf

Thank your for mentioning "National Socialist German Workers' Party." In one of my previous comments, I incorrectly referred to it as, "National Socialist Party," but no one seemed to care. Accuracy does't seem to be the center point of this thread.

Don

 

[darkbeaver]

Marxism and socialism cannot be justified simply because how can you substantiate using force against other men's free will? The only way to ensure these social courses is by imposing redistributive policies by force or threat of force on others without consent. I cannot see any justification for their statist prerogative and I was never one to believe in the old phrase or almost now a cliché “Two wrongs make a right.” To bring about their utopian fallacy they have to commit the wrongs that they are rallying against. This is no way to bring about equality of the people and is merely a subjection of them to the state's will either by some form of rule by the majority, minority, party, or other means. Thus socialism is just another vice for men to use to induce their own doctrines onto the world. ​

“It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action. The funds that a government spends for whatever purposes are levied by taxation. And taxes are paid because the taxpayers are afraid of offering resistance to the tax gatherers. They know that any disobedience or resistance is hopeless. As long as this is the state of affairs, the government is able to collect the money that it wants to spend. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.”​

Ludwig von Mises

Socialism begins at home, socialism can be seen working in neighbourhoods at the grassroots level, socialism addresses the human the community the state and the planet, at no time does it kneel to the contents of some vault or worthless fiat money. We will have revolution by the people for the people and of the people, no where will the phoney "corporate person" be permitted quarter, no where will the banking cabal be given shelter and no capitalist will hold office above the common wealth of humanity. You believe in free will do you. What has free will to do with capitalism? Free will is a privilage extended to the indivdual by the community (state), that individual must comply with the common good of that community, you are only free within the conventions and agreements of your community, you are not free to unilaterally
decide what you will or will not do, common law decides wheather you are to be granted freedom within that community, the individual does not.
Now we can continue to paint and blame each side in the human struggle and thus continue the divide and conquer programe of the ruling clique of bankers and they as always will be the only winners. Capitalism serves capital, socialism serves people, if you want to serve humanity you cannot serve capital, look in the capitalists text books nowhere is the consideration of the human mentioned except as a carrier of wealth to be extracted and piled up in an account that only serves to generate more capital. It's possibly the most devisive rotten activity ever devised by man, and rightly condemned by both christian and muslim alike in the oldest rulebooks written for and by mankind. Nowhere in the ancient world was it ever tolerated and for well understood reason, it was always a plague and a curse.