Socialism Is the Only Way

[smdfaru]

Niflmir

Your words:

"In the communist manifesto, Marx and Engels espoused two views: socialism and communism. In their view, before the ``ideal'' government (communism) could come about, there would be and intermediate one: socialism. Of course, since that time the meanings of the word have changed (English not being a dead language) and so those original definitions no longer hold. Also important is to note that a pig that claims to be a duck, is still a pig. One does not take for definition of communism or socialism those nations which claimed to be."

That doesn't jive with the excerpt below from the Communist Manifesto. As you can see, what Engels remarked about the muddle heads muddying up the waters of socialism is just what is splattered around today, and as each one steps up, so will he or she be followed by a thousand more--when will it end, who knows. The word communism stems from the Latin language; socialism from the Greek languarge.

From the Communist Manifesto:

Thus the history of the Manifesto reflects, to a great extent, the history of the modern working-class movement; at present it is doubtless the most wide-spread, the most international production of all Socialist Literature, the common platform acknowledged by millions of working men from Siberia to California.

Yet, when it was written, we could not have called it a Socialist Manifesto. By Socialists, in 1847, were understood, on the one hand the adherents of the various Utopian systems: Owenites in England, Fourierists in France, both of them already reduced to the position of mere sects, and gradually dying out; on the other hand, the most multifarious social quacks, who, by all manners of tinkering, professed to redress, without any danger to capital and profit, all sorts of social grievances[;] in both cases men outside the working class movement, and looking rather to the “educated” classes for support. Whatever portion of the working class had become convinced of the insufficiency of mere political revolutions, and had proclaimed the necessity of a total social change, that portion, then, called itself Communist. It was a crude, rough-hewn, purely instinctive sort of Communism; still, it touched the cardinal point and was powerful enough amongst the working class to produce the Utopian Communism of Cabet in France, and in Germany, of Weitling. Thus, Socialism was, in 1847, a middle-class movement, Communism a working-class movement. Socialism was, on the Continent at least, “respectable”; Communism was the very opposite. And as our notion, from the very beginning, was that “the emancipation of the working class must be the act of the working class itself,” there could be no doubt as to which of the two names we must take. Moreover, we have, ever since, been far from repudiating it.

Don

 

[smdfaru]

Niflmir

Your said"

"In the communist manifesto, Marx and Engels espoused two views: socialism and communism. In their view, before the ``ideal'' government (communism) could come about, there would be and intermediate one: socialism. Of course, since that time the meanings of the word have changed (English not being a dead language) and so those original definitions no longer hold. Also important is to note that a pig that claims to be a duck, is still a pig. One does not take for definition of communism or socialism those nations which claimed to be."
Your didn't respond to my last comment, not much for elaboration. Here is more on the point:

Common to all the hodge podge among advocates of socialism or communism is the idea that everything rests on political action which is just ducky for the vanguardists. In fact its just ducky for any purely political approach to social problems. Here in the US, the major parties, and also all the fringe parties, try to out hustle each to gain control of the political state. Even the progressives and liberals, different labels but hardly distinguishable from each other, join the bandwagon. Marxism is not about capturing the political state and wielding it for a vanguard purpose. Vanguard, meaning, the masses follow me and I will lead you to the promised land. The whole kit and kaboodle spurn economic action--industrial organization--production operated and managed by workers. That takes an educated working class. Right after the US take over of Iraq, in the midsts of confusion disruption there, I heard a flash report (nothing to that respect since, must have slipped through the filter) on the radio while driving--Iraq workers took over the operation of a production plant and elected the manager. Now where did that come from--not the Saddam Hussein brand of socialism. Was that a spontaneous act by the workers or was that concept lurking in the shadows of the class struggle there?

The main purpose of society should be to produce for the needs of the populace, almost entirely consisting of workers and their families. Production for use instead of profit. In a social system for making profits, politics makes out like a bandit. The system always works because there is always profit to be made. Nevermind the needs of workers and their families. Even during the Great Depression the system worked, while millions were poverty stricken, profits were still being made.

[Here, I repeat my initial comment to this thread, something you might not have come across and not likely to bother going back to it]

I am a member of Real Union Of Social Science (RUSS) which is not a political organization. RUSS will not endorse any political party that does not totally support the interest of the working class. At this time, the only political party that fits this catagory is the Socialist Labor Party (of America).

I posted a comment on Bill Moyers Journal offering:

Poll: Are Unions Over?

Answer our poll question, then debate the topic below.

748 total votes 87% voted no to the question and 12% voted yes

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/06/poll_are_unions_over.html

Here is my comment:

Labor union demise.

There is almost always one key element omitted when discussing the union question! Before getting into that, the air would be cleared if set and distinguishable terminology is used. To start off, since capitalism is generally accepted as being the best of all possible systems, it follows that there must be a capitalist class, proceeding from that there must be capitalists who belong to that class. Since that class owns the means of production and it is a tiny minority of the population, then the majority are compelled to work for the capitalists. The majority being workers, it follows that they must belong to the working class. Therefore exists a class divided society.

Now, back to the key omitted element. We had, right here in Minneapolis, the creation of a union in the early 1930’s. Who created it? Workers! Well, if you go by the vague jargon in common usage today, you might miss their existence as workers; we are bombarded day after day with reports on consumers and their confidence. Nothing about workers and what they feel about their plight. That was not the case with the union referred to. It was the Teamsters, and they were not subjected to the ceaseless vague jargon in prevalent usage today, identifying them as “consumers,” with their main concern being whether they had “consumer confidence” enough to go to the store to buy the necessities for life. They knew that they belonged to the working class and they knew that their interest was in opposition to that of the capitalist class. They knew that they were not getting enough pay to buy the necessities for life needed by them and their wives and children. They were class conscious. They didn’t need anyone to tell them what to do. On their own part, they had the gumption to organize and form a union. That in spite of the actual fire power used against them as it was done all over the United States by the proud back shooters (themselves being members of the working class, mind you) who dutifully served the capitalist class, but that is another part of the story.

It didn’t take long for the capitalist class, since direct force including the “blacklist,” was ineffective. It only riled up workers more and besides, of most importance, it interfered with production and the making of profit. What to do about it? Eureka! We don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalists came up with the panacea, what matters is that it solved the problem, production went on uninterrupted, and profits kept rolling in. It was the creation of the pro capitalist union leader, what some have referred to as the “labor merchant” or the “labor faker.” He says to the workers, “Your busy doing your job and strikes always stop your pay and you get behind on your rent and grocery bill. Let me save you the misery, I will handle the boss.” Gradually with the compliance of the labor faker, the vague jargon sets into what we have today, “consumers” and “consumer confidence.” Capitalist class, what? Working class, what? Class consciousness, what?

It didn’t take a “Hitler” to wreck the unions in the US, as was done in Germany. Calmly and persistently, with an occasional ranting and raving against the boss of course, it was the pro capitalist union leader, the “labor merchant,” the “labor faker” who performed the dastardly deed. During all this time, with the assistance of union labor for its operation, the media and the educational system has been aiding and abetting the obscuring of workers’ class consciousness. Until finally, labor faker union leaders have rendered themselves into an endangered species. The top ones, of course, having seen to it to become virtual capitalists themselves before their demise.

From capitalist use of force against the working class, to guile by using the labor faker to increase profits, comes the next obstacle to increasing profits, the Constitution of the United State. What now? Eureka! Again, we don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalist came up with the replacement panacea, all that matters is that its working, profits are going up by leaps and bounds. Go to a country with a huge working class that is largely unemployed or marginally employed and best of all, a country with a Constitution not fit to wipe your, you know what, with--China. For the promise of a couple of fish heads and a bowl of rice a day, Mao roused the starving peasants to the glory of the Korean War human slaughterhouse. Now, for not much more, the Chinese workers submit to slaving away until they are driven into the ground, while the Chinese ruling class, once considered by the US to be tyrants behind the bamboo curtain, hell bent on spreading communism, serve as the new labor merchant to US capitalism.

Just as did our home grown labor merchant, the Chinese replacement makes sure to get a cut out of the action to become a well heeled virtual capitalist. The hitch is, just as our home grown labor merchant helped bring about its own endangered species status so will the Chinese labor merchant despot. Just how long is the scheme of merchandise streaming into the US from China, with American workers’ payment continually being lowered, going to last? Just how long is the consumers’ consumer confidence going to be sustained to remove the glut of merchandise on store selves, so they can be refilled again and again, while the caravan of super container ships from China come streaming day after day into the California docks to be unloaded?

Class conscious unions, anyone? Return of workers having the gumption to organize, form and operate unions by their own initiative, anyone? Or do we just sit in front of the boob tube and wait for the inevitable? Another breed of labor merchant, maybe!
During all this time, the merchant in question does not sell to the highest bidder as was done with the chattel slave on the auction block. He or she sells to the lowest bid of each capitalist concern, the commodity labor power. The labor merchant shill is on the take, getting paid on the side for offering the work time of workers at the lowest possible hourly pay. Not only is the labor merchant on the take with the capitalist class, he or she leeches union dues from workers to perform such a dastardly deed. Labor time is merchandise, a commodity, an investment of capital by the capitalist class. Right now that capital (commodity) is cheapest in China.
Here is one class conscious union that doesn’t beat around the bush. But that is hardly enough for the total working class, but a start.

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html

Don

 

[darkbeaver]

Don, that's the truth and nothing but the truth. I accept it and speak and live it. We have left it late in the game though and we know diseducation particularly has been the demise of the working class.The capitalists ruined generations of children and never let the truth near them. The US economy has entered recession which I and the people I read and study believe will develope into depression and it's attentant ruin.The camps are in place, the orders for round-up need only be signed and the cops dispatched. The purpose of those camps is I believe to accomodate the militant workers who can read the writing on the wall, it's the mans only way of controlling the hungry angry mob. The time to organize has come.If there's anything left after the fall, there will be workers and there will be need .

 

[jimshort19]

Again Beaver (how do you do it?), you are so absolutely right I'm coming out my ears.

"The US economy has entered recession which I and the people I read and study believe will develope into depression and it's attentant ruin.The camps are in place, the orders for round-up need only be signed and the cops dispatched."

Give me a date for this, so that we may meet to savour your prescience.

 

[smdfaru]

jimshort19

Hubert Humphery the great liberal and friend of labor in the US, as a senator voted for six detention camps for the purpose of incarcerating dissenters. He and the rest of his cohorts needn't bother, the Vietnam War and the red scare came to the rescue. The left over straw man from the Korean War was resurrected and the working class was kept busy tearing it down again. Now we have a replacement straw man, world terrorism. If Afghanistan, Iraq and possibly Iran fails to divert the instinctive class consciousness of the American worker, the capitalist class will have the new detention centers held in reserve to come to the rescue.

There most certainly is something wrong with the capitalist system right now. You don't indicate trying to do a damn thing about it--only dissipating your energy bashing socialism, which has not one iota to do with the current state of capitalism. From your display, there is not one miniscule particale of constructive criticism, only a forte of marauding and prevaricating, sprinkled with a dash of mockery.

 

[darkbeaver]

Again Beaver (how do you do it?), you are so absolutely right I'm coming out my ears.

"The US economy has entered recession which I and the people I read and study believe will develope into depression and it's attentant ruin.The camps are in place, the orders for round-up need only be signed and the cops dispatched."

Give me a date for this, so that we may meet to savour your prescience.

Watch the markets Jim, alternatively when the first banker leaps to his death from an office window it'll be arround about then. Prescience has nothing to do with it really, although my tea readings concur, I use mutiple sources, livers, entrails, star charts but market conditions and the economists I read believe the concretes rushing up to meet that banker, if you don't ,well get a new sorcerer your old one is obviously dead. What can you do with the disgrunteled masses Jim?

 

[darkbeaver]

Yah, that Jim is a basher alright, not a builder, just a basher.Banker basher interest taker all of em are counterproductive and therefore superfulous to the progress of the working class, luckily we have ready made holding camps courtesy of the upper class and thier hirelings, that we can safely store them in while we re-educate the capitalism outofem. It's a wonderful world, at last.:lol:

 

[jimshort19]

smdfaru, "If Afghanistan, Iraq and possibly Iran fails to divert the instinctive class consciousness of the American worker, the capitalist class will have the new detention centers held in reserve to come to the rescue."

New detention/rescue centres for instictively class-conscious workers undistracted by wars?

I'm sorry old man, you're barking.

 

[smdfaru]

Listen up jimshort19, besides your persistent mocking there is something else involed here. If you and I kicked the bucket tomorrow it would matter not one bit to the millions in the working class.

The main reason I retort back to you is not for the benefit of me, or to have a fleeting thought that I will ever convince you, it is for the benefit of others that appreciate reasonable discussion. That is why I am including another exposure of decadent capitalism. You just go ahead and mock again and give me the opportunity to plunk down some more. You can keep on giving me the opportunity to your hearts content, that fine with me, young sprout.

THE PEOPLE

JANUARY-FEBRUARY 2008
V
OL. 117 NO. 5

H1-B VISA PROGRAM DIVIDES AND WEAKENS WORKING CLASS
Every day capitalism becomes morecompletely international; every day the "world's market" is a robuster truth; every day, consequently, the merchandise labor power has to sell itself more obviously in the WORLD MARKET.--DAILY PEOPLE, Jan. 5, 1908

The whole matter may be summed up in the one statement that in order to capture the world's markets, the wage workers of the United States must come down to a level with the most poorly paid men in the world.--DAILY PEOPLE, Sept. 15, 1900

By Diane Secor

Since the H-1B visa program was introduced in the 1990s, a number of groups have sprung up with demands that the U.S. government limit the number of H-1B visas issued to foreign workers, who are said to "take jobs away from American workers" with college degrees.
Bright Future Jobs, for example, argues that the "H-1B visa-hiring program takes opportunities away from Americans." It contends that plenty of American workers are available to fill jobs in the engineering, medical and other fields. Moreover, workers on H-1B visas are paid lower wages and are totally dependent on their employers for their immigration status.

Many U.S. companies argue the opposite. They claim they must hire foreign workers on H-1B visas because there is a shortage of qualified American workers. However, even capitalist sources, such as David Rosenberg at Merrill Lynch, have refuted this. According to BUSINESS WEEK (Aug. 21), Rosenberg states that there is no real labor shortage, but that these firms cannot "get enough workers at the price they want to pay."

In truth, however, neither restrictions on H-1B visas nor any other legislation can change the basic nature of capitalism itself. The drive for cheap labor in the cutthroat competition of the market is inherent in capitalism itself. If cheaper labor cannot be found through workers on H-1B visas, companies will relocate overseas where cheaper labor may be available. Indeed, outsourcing has led to high-tech unemployment in many part of the United States.

It is unlikely that groups like Bright Future Jobs will ever convince Congress to make any significant changes in the H-1B visa program. The state functions as the executive committee of the capitalist class, mediating disputes within the ruling class and deciding what best serves the interests of the capitalist class as a whole. This is why some members of Congress will support quotas on H-1B visas and others will side with high-tech firms, who want more H-1B workers.

In any case, the capitalist class is very classconscious and the capitalist state by its nature cannot represent American workers or any workers. No "patriotic" feeling can override the inherent capitalist drive for cheaper labor. Higher profits are all that matters under capitalism.
Only a united working class of men and women, of all nationalities and races, of skilled and unskilled workers, armed with classconsciousness, can throw off the shackles of wage slavery. As long as capitalism exists, the vast working-class majority will always be at the mercy of whatever is most profitable for the few capitalist owners of industry. Under socialism, every worker will have the opportunity to do useful work, using his or her own talents and skills, because workers will own and operate the tools of production and production will be for the benefit of all, not for the private profits of a few.

http://www.slp.org/pdf/thepeople/jan_feb08TP.pdf

 

[smdfaru]

jimshort19

You said:

"...old man..."

Is that intended as a wisecrack?

Wisecracking and mocking is not conducive to intelligent discussion.

Don

 

[smdfaru]

Jimshort19

If you read any of the comments alluding to socialism, you should know that those in agreement are workers. You should also know, by my comments, that I am a worker, substantiated by the sources I refer to. By reading your comments, I haven't the slightest idea what camp you hail from and you refer to nothing. From that I would not be out of line to call you an unidentified interloper.

If you perhaps belong to the working class and it is obvious that I am a member, verified by the soources I referred to, then where is the allience shown--there is none. If you are not a member of the working class then the point is mutebut unknown. It does bring to mind the widespread allienation within the working class. They are, for the most part, unallied. Often
heard from them are words that they haphazardly drop: "solidarity", "brothers and sisters", and "one for and all for one." I don't see where those words can be properly used in a substatial portion of the working class in the present.

Workers tend to talk the talk but hardly ever walk the walk. Capitalists always simultaneously talk the talk and walk the walk.

Don

 

[jimshort19]

nflmr, "From your simplifications, I take it you are unwilling to budge in your beliefs about socialism and your preconceptions about socialist's beliefs of capitalism."

You are correct.

nmflmr, " Take a look at the Nordic prison system, lies and violence?"

The Nordic prison system is in Norway. Norway's GDP is more private sedctor than government derived.

nflmr, "Take a look at German utilities, too much lemonade? I will take my coffee with sugar, thank you, the cold war was idiotic in its propagandization of important concepts."

Yes. Your preference in coffee is clearly connected to the cold war. But I and my side won the cold war, and will win again and again because we are winners. I prefer winners. You prefer losers. As for which is right, my side was right too. Canada bore arms and supported the cold war from beginning to end. Enjoy your coffee.

 

[jimshort19]

Don, "Wisecracking and mocking is not conducive to intelligent discussion."

Don old man, I know that, but you just gotta get past it. If you are offended, I will cease and desist. You are one of the few who I know are male, ergo 'old man'. It wasn't nflmr that gave you away, it was 'Don'. 'Old man' is a term of endearment and respect to one, a presuming and condescending familiarity to another, but never a bad name. If you've never been called 'old man' you don't have enough friends or something.

 

[smdfaru]

<P> </P>
<P>jimshort19</P>
<P> </P>
<P>You flatter yourself while spouting superficialities. With you empty talk, it can only be taken that you are trolling for the last word.  Therefor your next expected trolling nonsense will the last word as far as I am concerned.  You have said enoough for everyone on the thread to peg you.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Enjoy.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Don </P>

 

[smdfaru]

jimshor19

[My last message got garbled for some reason--here it is again]

Your flatter yourself with superficialities. With your empty talk, it can only be taken that you are trolling for the last word. Therefor, your next expected trolling nonsense will be the last word as far as I am concerned. You have said enough for everyone on the thread to peg you.

Enjoy.

Don

 

[darkbeaver]

nflmr, "From your simplifications, I take it you are unwilling to budge in your beliefs about socialism and your preconceptions about socialist's beliefs of capitalism."

You are correct.

nmflmr, " Take a look at the Nordic prison system, lies and violence?"

The Nordic prison system is in Norway. Norway's GDP is more private sedctor than government derived.

nflmr, "Take a look at German utilities, too much lemonade? I will take my coffee with sugar, thank you, the cold war was idiotic in its propagandization of important concepts."

Yes. Your preference in coffee is clearly connected to the cold war. But I and my side won the cold war, and will win again and again because we are winners. I prefer winners. You prefer losers. As for which is right, my side was right too. Canada bore arms and supported the cold war from beginning to end. Enjoy your coffee.

Side? In reality only a fraction of that percieved side, in fact a "faction" hidden in that invented side. There are no sides, only givers and takers in the same ball of humanity. The first device of the capitalist is the imposition of sides, all else follows from that illusion, maintenance of that illusion consumes a great portion of human energy to no good end at all.

 

[jimshort19]

Don, I'm a believer in freedom. Norwegian prisons are not my idea of a good model of anything, except perhaps prisons.

The name 'capitalist' was coined by a 'socialist'. It is wordplay. Capitalism means freedom and socialism means oppression. Free markets go with free people. Capitalism frees the individual to act as a human being. Socialism is centralized capitalism. Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Choose your master, your share in democracy, or lick the boots of a dictator.

 

[darkbeaver]

Don, I'm a believer in freedom. Norwegian prisons are not my idea of a good model of anything, except perhaps prisons.

The name 'capitalist' was coined by a 'socialist'. It is wordplay. Capitalism means freedom and socialism means oppression. Free markets go with free people. Capitalism frees the individual to act as a human being. Socialism is centralized capitalism. Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Choose your master, your share in democracy, or lick the boots of a dictator.

Exibit A/ your honour, "free markets"=oxymoronic doublespeak fantasy. Simple does not and cannot exist yet the capitalist and neo-liberal bag carrying acolytes will actually sell the fog to children and the terminally retarded as reality when it has none. Capitalism enslaves humans to act as wage slaves. Capitalism is concentration of wealth directly opposed to socialism which is distribution of wealth. A tree that bears want, war and human misery and calls this fruit is a criminally insane tree. Are we to lick the boots of the dictatorial power of capital, or provide boots for all.

Your honour, members of the duely assembled jury, you must find the defendant guilty as charged, he has lied through his teeth which may in fact not be his teeth. I implore you to apply the full remedy of the law so that the public may not endure the crimes of this specimin ever again. Hang the guilty basturd at dawn. May dog bless his rotten soul.:lol:

Licking boots is a requirement of the capitalist club each assending level of acolytes is required to lick the boots of those above, till they have nothing but the taste of dirt on thier foul tongues as they climb the pyramid and becomes increasingly inhumane in thier pointless pursuit of gold. The many begin to clamour from the bottom mudering each other as they climb till only the most viscious survive.This is called survival of the ****tiest. :lol:

 

[jimshort19]

Dark Beaver, this is the second time that I've seen you flat out deny that free markets exist. This disqualfies you from the discussion of free markets. What credible person can you discuss it with? Certainly not an economist.

 

[Kreskin]

Exibit A/ your honour, "free markets"=oxymoronic doublespeak fantasy. Simple does not and cannot exist yet the capitalist and neo-liberal bag carrying acolytes will actually sell the fog to children and the terminally retarded as reality when it has none. Capitalism enslaves humans to act as wage slaves. Capitalism is concentration of wealth directly opposed to socialism which is distribution of wealth. A tree that bears want, war and human misery and calls this fruit is a criminally insane tree. Are we to lick the boots of the dictatorial power of capital, or provide boots for all.

Your honour, members of the duely assembled jury, you must find the defendant guilty as charged, he has lied through his teeth which may in fact not be his teeth. I implore you to apply the full remedy of the law so that the public may not endure the crimes of this specimin ever again. Hang the guilty basturd at dawn. May dog bless his rotten soul.:lol:

Licking boots is a requirement of the capitalist club each assending level of acolytes is required to lick the boots of those above, till they have nothing but the taste of dirt on thier foul tongues as they climb the pyramid and becomes increasingly inhumane in thier pointless pursuit of gold. The many begin to clamour from the bottom mudering each other as they climb till only the most viscious survive.This is called survival of the ****tiest. :lol:

Would you prefer getting paid $1 a day and living in some hut outside of Shanghai while the socialists gather the fruits of your hard work? Funny how all the growth in China is being fueled by the capitalists and the communist government makes no effort to spread the wealth to Santa's Elves.