As you said, you never read the Goldstone report and I won't criticize anyone for being honest. I can only suggest you read the report for balance and in order to judge this conflict based on all the facts, not just the ones which saturate our news media.
If you want to judge this conflict on all the facts, then I would suggest you avoid the Goldstone report. It has no basis in fact.
I read it eao, I actually read it in its entirety.
What most Canadians know about this report is that it has been criticized by the Israeli, American and Canadian governments. That alone should pique your curiosity. Also, what is not reported is that this report is now widely accepted internationally as the facts supported by evidence.
And yet when I posted the facts that the report is flawed, you couldn't refute them...:lol:
Another issue closer to home, which should concern all Canadians are attempts by Canadian governments to criminalize criticism of Israel under the guise of anti-Semitic related hate crimes:
I agree, this is a slippery slope. But in its defense, one must look at content, context and intent. If one merely questions Israel's actions, one is doing his/her civic duty and performing free speech. If one combines that with references to falsehoods and lies to incite hatred towards Israel, then they are in breach of Canadian hate speech laws. Which are just fine as they stand.
I suggest you read the report and decide for yourself if referencing the report or Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity as detailed by the report should be considered a hate crime in Canada.
I wouldn't go so far as calling that report a hate crime. I would however say using it a tool to whip Israel is. Especially since the report has been proven to be erroneous, and flawed.
I also invite well known Israeli apologists on this forum to express their opinions regarding the Canadian government's push to criminalize criticism of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
:lol:, how rational. That isn't what the legal precedent is. And this only goes to show you what exactly your train of thought and your goal is.
Goober,
I already responded to your attempts to bait me and turn this thread into meaningless name calling. I intend to ignore hate inspired posts which when directed at me probably violate rules.
If we ignored your hate filled posts, no one would respond to you.
Also Goober references this incident, which was an active topic around the time he first joined CC several years ago.
I don't recall Goober actually condemning it, but he may have.
I remember it quite well. Goober outright condemned it. I came in my usual Bear fashion and verbally thumped you. To which you and him both challenged the validity of my military career. Which at the time, you fully accepted and were well aware of, after we spoke candidly and at length in private. Despite this, you were all to keen to challenge it openly, to smear me personally.
Hence my complete loss of respect for you, and my present position on your unethical and hate filled campaign.
Now that Goober sees you in the same light I do, and not because he listened to me, actually because he has listened to you. You will now forget anything he has ever said that is balanced and fair, you will forget where he has condemned Israel for what he believes is inappropriate action. (As you have done to me, Colpy and several others.) As it suits your agenda of smearing us, to make it far to easy for you to dismiss what we say, without ever having to put any effort into proving your position.
If you want a fact based debate on this topic, then first prove you are aware of the facts.
I/we have proven that we are well aware of the facts, you have not once ever been able to refute what we have posted. You just ignore or it, or out right summarily dismiss it.
1) Read the Goldstone report.
Read it, in its entirety. I can post page numbers and sight reference to each section, page and paragraph, can you? So bring it it on if you can eao.
2) Either condemn specific Israeli actions as war crimes as I condemned specific Palestinian actions war crimes, or reference specific Israeli war crime or crime against humanity incidents detailed in the report and explain why you feel they are or are not war crimes.
I've done this, only to be called an apologist, and have my findings ignored.
Not to mention the fact that you do not condemn Palestinian war crimes, you ignore them. Even when faced with absolute fact, including the condemnation by the UN SG, who condemned Hamas' hijacking of aid/food supplies. Which of course the "mission" ignored as well. How interesting.
1) Use of Chemical Weapons against civilians
Unproven, not enough reliable evidence to take to civil court, let alone the ICoC.
2) Attacking hospitals, ambulances, doctors, medics...
Proven to be legitimate targets, because Hamas was using ambulances, hospitals, Mosques and medical personnel as shields.
3) Use of civilians including children as human shields
Again, evidence was anecdotal at best. Whereas the the contrary was proven outright, that Hamas was using human shields, complete with photographic evidence, independent eyewitness testimony.
4) Blocking food and medicine from reaching hungry and sick people
A complete lie. Given that not only was raw material for food production never stopped, Israel shipped some 14,000lbs of aid/day into Gaza. That is a UN figure, not an Israeli one.
5) Shooting unarmed civilians carrying the white flag of truce
Again, anecdotal evidence at best.
6) Directing civilians to take cover in a building then bombing the building
Again, anecdotal evidence. When questioned further, the eyewitnesses could not indicate where the munitions came from, let alone who fired them. The conclusions were based on a predetermined belief it was Israel, not actually vased on fact.
7) Preventing emergency workers from reaching and evacuating injured and dying civilians
Although I must strenuously disagree with Israel's over zealous need for security, and how that impeded aid workers. I can full grasp the reasons they took the precautions they did.
8 ) Shooting up UN aid convoys
As I have said in the past, there are no excuses for shelling marked UN convoys.
9) Deliberately killing civilians and destroying civilian targets.
As I have proven, this is a common misconception you continuously try to report as fact.
Not only did Israel not purposely target civilians, the very fact that so few were killed, proves that this is true. Had they actually been targeted, there would have been civilian deaths in the untold hundreds of thousands.
Civilian homes were also destroyed when Hamas used them for operations against the IDF, read the report, try page 270, paragraph 988.
10) Deliberately attacking UN buildings including shelters and aid warehouses.
and so on...
That were being used as shields, by Hamas to launch strikes against Israeli targets, including the launching of missiles into civilian areas within Israel.
You can find the details about the specific incidents in the Goldstone report here:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict
To which I have posted many glaring issues, that you have completely ignored.
I doubt you will actually read the Goldstone report, because you don't care about the suffering of millions of fellow human beings and you aren't interested in the facts.
I would offer that it is you that is not interested in fact. Well facts that don't support your hatred of Jews.
Your posts indicate you support Israel regardless of their war crimes and crimes against humanity and nothing will change your mind.
Your posts indicate that you have no need to discuss the truth. No need to view the real facts of the matter and that you will stoop to any level to hide your head in the sand from truth and fact.
Your posts indicate that you are more interested in diverting people's attention from facts which portray Israel negatively.
You posts indicate that you believe that Hamas and Hezbollah can do no wrong and that any criticism of them is purely out of spite by Israeli apologists and people who support human rights violations.
I doubt you have the level of objectivity required to address the contents of the Goldstone report directly.
OMG, I have addressed it, it is you that has continuously ignore my posts, so you won't have to actually admit that there are serious flaws and errors contained in it.
Instead I predict more juvenile name calling and diversions.
Like "apologist", "supporter of crimes against humanity" and my fave, "supporter of war crimes"?
I doubt you read the report or actually know more about the report than the links you referenced.
I know more about the report then you do. I doubt you've read the report.
But prove me wrong. Actually quote a paragraph or two from the report regarding a specific incident which supports Goldstone's assertion that Israel committed war crimes and crimes against humanity by referencing its page number.
Explain why you believe this incident is or is not a war crime or crime against humanity or didn't happen.
Although I've done this, let me do it again, this time complete with page and paragraph numbers...
The attack on the al Bader flour mill...
Beginning page 253, ending at page 260, containing paragraphs, 909 to 938.
1, The flour building was the tallest structure in the area. Making it a legitimate military post, and thus a target. In fact the Israeli's used it after it was secured, as a military observation post.
2, Given the fact that the facility was only capable of producing 220 tons of flour per day, and complete dependent on shipments of wheat from Israel. While Israel was shipping 618 tons of flour per day into Gaza. Which of course exceded to UN reported needed tonnage of 450 tons perday to supply Gaza suffeciently to stave off a humanitarian crisis.
The use of Human shields, the case of Majdi Abd Rabbo...
Beginning page 281, ending page 287, containing paragraphs 1029 to 1059.
Rabbo is not a civilian, he is a member of the PA intelligence services. Not only is he not a civilian, his testimony should be viewed as suspect, outright.
Deliberate attacks on "civilian" Police...
Beginning page 118 to 134, containing paragraphs 391 to 436.
There is not a police force on the planet, other then the Palestinian force, that has anti tank munitions. The majority of the force is made up of military personal, that serve in both the militia and regular forces as well as shurta officers.
Given that many of them had bio's on the Hamas website, declaring death to Israel, and exampling their miliatry prowess. It is not outside the rehlm of critical thought to determine that these men are not akin to the local police one would find in any Canadian city.
The attack on al-Maqadmah mosque...
Beginning page 233 to 237, containing paragraphs 820 to 841.
Mosques, hospitals and so on have routinely been used as military operations bases and munition depots. This is easily proven when the video footage of al-Maqadmah mosque subsequent fire. Which ignited stored munitions.
The "mission" ignored testimony of several eyewitnesses, many international journalists, that indicated secondary explosions in Mosques that had been hit by the IDF. Including video and photographic proof, containing the accidental ignition of tracer rounds, large explosions and smell of burning powder.
Now here's the best part. 15 people were killed in the strike on this mosque, 40, injured. Of the 15 killed, 7 were known (and published on the Hamas website) to be Militia, terrorists and jihadists.
This would be pretty easy to do for anyone who actually read the report.
Yep, which is why I don't just cut & paste, I actually read and offer my own words.
BTW, take your time as I have to leave and probably won't be able to respond until later in the week. Work before play... But I will come back to this thread and if people make a legitimate effort to debate this topic in a civil manner, I will respond to the best of my ability as time permits...
I doubt it, but I did the leg work anyways, if only to prove that you aren't interested in real discussion.
That is the duty of the Courts to sort out the facts from the fiction, if you are so sure that Israel is faultless then a trial should cause you (and their other supports of operation cast lead) no concern.
I agree, but we have a standard of law, that dictates that there must be sufficient and substantial evidence to take people to trial. There obviously isn't.
They have been screaming 'unfair' ever since the report came out. If they don't like 'reports' don't kill 1400 people.
They're "screaming unfair", because people like you and eao believe lies and half truths, and reprint them indecently as fact.
"especially UN and NGOs, which have a documented hostility to Israel;"
For the number of UN troops that Israel has killed over the years how many IDF have been killed by UN troops? Perhaps Israel quit targeting everything painted as belonging to the UN. Why does that solution never make it to the top of thier list on how to get along with others. lol
Perhaps because the UN has unfairly center out Israel, the countries surrounding Israel have written policy dictating their desire to ex-sponge Israel from the map and the world does nothing but watch, point fingers and believe tripe.
That is because they are not globe-trotting assassins. Event take events from June of '08, ceasefire agreements in place, there is a marked difference in rockets coming out of Gaza yet Israel lived up to nothing it agreed to do.
How so?
Then it blamed operation cast lead on incidents that happened after they made a night raid into Gaza that resulted in 5 deaths.
Why was their operation not lawful?
A tunnel needs a place to come up , they could have destroyed it from that end (Israeli territory, if there even was one).
A tunnel with the purposes of attacking Israel, is a breach of the ceasefire.
No deaths to either side and very few rockets (same as unruly Israeli settlers) in Nov and Dec would have made that long planned operation a no-go.
Unfortunately, tunnels and stockpiling weapons, combined with rocket attacks, are breaches of the ceasefire.
The Hamas that opened fire on the Israeli troops that night in Nov 08 were not doing anything 'wrong' Israel was in the wrong spot.
So Israel should sit idly by while people who have a written policy of genocide build facilities to annihilate them?
Agree to that and I might hold out hope for you being 'impartial'.
If I agreed to that, I would be supporting terrorism and genocide. I will not.
Call the cops and give them the address.
:roll:
Return question, why could the IDF have not requested that Hamas inspect that building (in the day-light)for tunnel activity while there was an IDF officer present and the whole affair is recorded rather than try a night raid that got blotched by the IDF, resulting in a dead member of their own forces.
Because the PA has repeatedly denied that sort of cooperation.
How about the IDF sneaking around Gaza in the middle of the night just so they would be shot at and that would give them the justification to call in the jets.
How about Hamas not give the iDF reason to defend Israel?
You didn't specify where they were when they got taken. If they are in a Foreign country (ie Lebanon) they should probably stay on their own side of the border.
How come the IDF has to stay on its side, while Hamas can invade Israel repeatedly and without provocation? Careful mhz, your bias is showing.
How many resolutions did Israel get the UN to condem Palestine for sinve Nov of '47?
0
lol who's "they"? Goldstone himself said his report wouldn't stand up in court. Therefore I agree with Ironsides, why should I waste my valuable time reading a report that means nothing.
Talk to me when they have some facts. I'm only interested in the facts. JUST the FACTS.
lol
:lol:
These people aren't interested in facts. They live in fantasy, where ignoring reality makes their ideology real.
Take that away from them, and they're emotionally empty, morally bankrupt and left with nothing to live for. I would even summize that there would be a rise in suicides among them.
Reality can be harsh on some people.
