Should the US let Muslims fight it out in Irag?

L Gilbert

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I doubt we will have a conventional war as WW1 and WW2 were. I think things will continue being unstable in various places with a few factions running about trying to develop their workdwide caliphate and killing off we infidel unbelievers. I seriously doubt any wingnut country wants to piss off the US to the point where it does another Nagasaki or Hiroshima. (Those were small bombs). Anyway, it's already proven itself to be just as terroristic as anyone else in killing off non-combatants.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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I was meaning how you were saying about the CIA and the US pulling out, and what l was saying is that in regard to that answer, i feel the situation is not that simple, the motivating forces are complex and the situation is complex. I made some comments, but have got it right? Who knows? All l know is that it is not neat and not an easy fix.
 

ottawabill

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May 27, 2005
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I think the problem is we expect the world to want to live like we do.....Likely we do have the best lifestyle..but that doesn't mean people who have always solved things with agression will see it that way... we setup decent political systems for them but they revert to the old kill them now, take over and govern with an iron fist...

It's like if you took a heroin addict into your house to give him a hot bath and a new lease on life...he's just as likely to rob you and buy more herion then to take you up and clean himself up...
 

L Gilbert

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It's like if you took a heroin addict into your house to give him a hot bath and a new lease on life...he's just as likely to rob you and buy more herion then to take you up and clean himself up...
So the best thing to do is just leave him to his own devices and mind your own biz in the first place. Or just off the SOB now and go turn yourself in for public scrutiny.
 

ottawabill

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So the best thing to do is just leave him to his own devices and mind your own biz in the first place. Or just off the SOB now and go turn yourself in for public scrutiny.

I didn't say that!!!!

What I am saying is if you go into a situation that varies from your norm..don't expect the other players to follow your norms!!!

Yes we should go help, but it may not work out as we hoped..thats all
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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If the US were to leave Iraq in the middle of a civil war won't Iran slowly take over that country? Saudia Arabia has publicly stated it will fund the Sunnis if the civil war continues, so we have the mad man of Iran (who hates the west) stirring the pot and we have the leader of Saudia Arabia (an ally) stirring the pot so how the "Hell" can the US tackle the radicals when they are being sabotaged from their enemy and their ally? If the extreme Islamic nut jobs gain control this could have lasting ramifications for the west could it not?

I tried posting the following article earlier but it was rejected over a font issue so hopefully it worked this time. It's an example of the new Laws put forth by the Radical Islamists, note the banning of allowing cucumbers and tomatoes in a salad together because one is a male plant and one is female. These Imams are nut jobs.


Sunni insurgents seek to carve
out a new Islamic state in Iraq

<FONT size=2>By Yasmin Ahmed
 

ottawabill

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The truth with the mid east Sassy is that it only settles when the most ruthless leader emerges with total control..it is either that norm..or the ruthless struggle to get to that point...it's never seemed to be any different..

But can you expect a decent political system from a group who don't even think women are equal..or hell better then a cow?
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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Bill they treat live stock better than they do women, and it's getting worse daily. I can't image living under Islamic rule I'd rather be stoned on the first day of the invasion. How can a Religion that use to be so civilized de-evolve as they have? Will the moderates ever gain an ounce of control over the Extremist and live to tell the tale?
 

ottawabill

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May 27, 2005
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so very true, they were the envy of the world....but I guess it can happen with any state or religon...

The take over of Christaion faith by Southern rightwing evangelists comes to mind...yes not so intence but all the same. Twisted everything to allow for the bible to say make great profit and forget leftwing poor people....don't quite remember those verses??

I'm sure it's the same with the Koran..I doubt that if you keep it in context it says kill everyone who is not with us... Or make you women live with your terrible behavior. Likely women are to obey in the Koran..I don't know, but I bet a man is suppose to act a certain caring way towards her, even if she is to obey??

The Bible has that...It may say in places that the man is in control but then says what kind of life he must lead and the rules to follow. I don't think for a min that women are under men..maytimes they should be above us :) but what I am saying is that you can't pull bits and pieces out of a holy book and forget what you don't like!!
 

L Gilbert

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I didn't say that!!!!
I know you didn't say that; I said it. :D

What I am saying is if you go into a situation that varies from your norm..don't expect the other players to follow your norms!!!
And I agree.

Yes we should go help, but it may not work out as we hoped..thats all
Did they ask for or even want "help"? Kuwait asked for US help with its problem, but did Iraq? I think the last thing people need is for some Dudley Doright to wander about the planet sticking its nose in everywhere "helping": it sure hasn't made the USA the most loved, trusted, and honored country on the planet. On the other hand, people like the Swiss, Costa Ricans, Fins, Swedes, for instance, seem to have been bastions of stability and comfort by simply minding their own biz.
 

L Gilbert

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Bill they treat live stock better than they do women, and it's getting worse daily. I can't image living under Islamic rule I'd rather be stoned on the first day of the invasion. How can a Religion that use to be so civilized de-evolve as they have? Will the moderates ever gain an ounce of control over the Extremist and live to tell the tale?
Actually, in some places it's getting better. Afghanistan, Lebanon, for instance. Women there seem to enjoy being able to learn more, shed the burkhas, etc. Kuwaiti women aren't doing too bad, either. The Irani, on the other hand, are living in some sort of stasis, where nothing advances or recedes, but that is typical of theocracies; particularly fundamental theocracies. But, I can't think of any place where things are getting worse.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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If the US were to leave Iraq in the middle of a civil war won't Iran slowly take over that country? Saudia Arabia has publicly stated it will fund the Sunnis if the civil war continues, so we have the mad man of Iran (who hates the west) stirring the pot and we have the leader of Saudia Arabia (an ally) stirring the pot so how the "Hell" can the US tackle the radicals when they are being sabotaged from their enemy and their ally? If the extreme Islamic nut jobs gain control this could have lasting ramifications for the west could it not?
-sassylassie

You got it!

and the salad example is a perfect example of the stupidity found in Islam, the handbook the Quran....
 

mabudon

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Mar 15, 2006
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It's odd, from a lot of posts in this thread, it sure does sound like folks (some of them) believe that ALL Muslims are "the problem"

Looking at it that way, the only solution is pretty much armageddopn, good thing this point of view isn't founded in reality, I guess, but rather insane xenophobia

The current mess in the middle east has NOTHING to DO WITH WOMENS RIGHTS and if that even figured into it, the persecution of this "war" is all wrong, the only thing you can beat into someone is anger, fear, pain, hatred and eventually death
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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I have a gut feeling about the middle east ....including Israel and Palestine occupied terroritory

Saudi Arabia are going to let the fools in the west do the gut work, soften the people up and then move in and create a huge empire.....they have the money .... probably would have the blessing of the western nations....

Whether this would be a good thing or not ..... I dunno
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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Hurrah! Curiousity WinS!!!!! You got it...the U.S. has invested how much ? 400 Billion, and yet the U.N. has HUNDREDS of billions IN the bank account they are tending for IRAQ.

Now why?

This makes no sense at all, and this 'HELD' money which would have otherwise have been taken by the corrupt government officals and terrorists. Yes we as NATO countries have an obligation to pay the price of peace, however with all this money and with the rebuilding of this country, some of that money needs to help NATO to pay for the horrendous expense.

The reason for all the opposition to continue the war is the expense and the death. If their was enough money our troops would have the qualtity equipment that they deserve to have.

An example is the old tanks being used.

A UK EXAMPLE of using equipment that is sub-standard is the aircraft that exploded killing soldiers and personnel because it landed on a land mine. The aircraft was not equiped with handing the explosive [as other newer models do, and this could have saved lifes].

In the meantime, the Iraqi's are really hopeless soldiers, actually when asked to lead the charge they simply cannot do it. Then to top everything off, they expect all this to happen at the NATO country expense, and then are having their leaders threaten and show disrespect for what has been accomplished.

Yep, the Iraqi's have billions, from oil, accumulating, while we are all, as taxpayers, paying the bill. And by the by, with billions stashed away, there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for outside humanitarian aid.
 

normbc9

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2006
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Why not seal the place off, supply them with small arms and materials and shut off the food supply too. I'll bet it wouldn't last for too long. It is their country and theur right to self determination. Not that of the US, a (failed) puppet government builder. When the oil runs out what then??
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
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Yep, outright containment, no matter how wide the borders (probably outside of Iran and Pakistan) would be the most simple solution- it really doesn't matter what folks in North America think, the problem has been made very acute and regional, the US can pull out sooner or later but the end result will be the same regardless... sorry for all the folks who have died pointlessly in some foreign posession, but the reality is and always will be that the folks who actually LIVE THERE will work it out eventually, folks coming in from other parts of the world to impose their "view" will ALWAYS fail- if the middle east in general is some kind of threat, why not simply seal and contain the whole mess?? I mean, really, would it have been so hard to say "NO ONE from saudi arbnia, Iraq, Iran, etc etc etc is to leave that zone without EXTREME vetting and enter the 'west'" ????

I personally don't buy the "clash of civilizations/ideologies" Bullcrap, but if "they" are the problem, why did bombing the crap out of a pretty much toothless old dog of a country have to be the "solution"??

The current "solution" makes North America look like a huge greedy lumbering idiot who won't run from the beehive despite the massive number of stings it's taking.. it seriously looks good on the US having their arse handed to them, if only the folks responsible would be the ones suffering
 

normbc9

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2006
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Every time the US economy sags as badly as it right now they have historically got involved in a armed conflict some place on the globe. While WW II wasn't attributed to that issue the US reaped hugh industrial profits from that terrible war and even doubled it's gross national product. I see something on the hoirizon and now I'm wondering if we are being warmed up for a trip to Tehran. I'm an American and a three conflict vet and all I can see is a repeat of history sadly. I sure hope this SPP proposal gets sunk before it gets going. Canada and Mexico would both come out losers in this venture.