Should the US let Muslims fight it out in Irag?

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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A thought provoking article, I'm not sure how I feel but with Irag in the middle of a civil war funded by Iran and Saudia Arabia (nice way for an ally to treat us aye) should the US just build a base and take notes until the slaughter of Sunni versus Shi'ite has a victor? Shi'ites are often used as slaves by the elitest rich Sunnis i.e. the Prince of doom in Saudia Arabia.



Let the Muslims fight it out

By Diana West
December 15, 2006


Funny thing about the recent op-ed by Nawaf Obaid in The Washington Post outlining likely Saudi actions if the United States withdraws from Iraq: namely, that Saudis would both support Sunnis in Iraq (versus Shi'ites supported by Iran) and manipulate the oil market to "strangle" the Iranian economy.
I think it sounds peachy, this let-them-devour-each-other strategy — which I'm guessing many Americans mutter to one another in frankness, if not also in confidence.
After the column appeared, not only did the Saudi government disavow it, but Mr. Obaid was fired from his job advising the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki al-Faisal. Hmmm, thought Saudi-ologists.
Before anyone could say, "shifting desert sands," Mr. Turki resigned his post in Washington, hightailing it back to the so-called kingdom for reasons unknown but possibly concerning machinations related to securing the post of foreign minister long held by Mr. Turki's ailing brother, Prince Saud al-Faisal. The post is also coveted by former Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan. Hmmm again.
But now it seems the Obaid column "reflected the view of the Saudi government," after all. At least, that's the way the New York Times tells it. Meanwhile, the Associated Press is reporting that "private" Saudi money is already supporting Sunni forces in Iraq. According to the New York Times, this private funding could easily become official Saudi policy. While Saudi leaders say they have so far withheld support from al Qaeda-led Sunni groups in Iraq, the newspaper explains, "if Iraq's sectarian violence worsened, the Saudis would line up with Sunni tribal leaders" — al Qaeda or no al Qaeda. Meanwhile, we already know Iran is backing, if not guiding, Iraqi Shi'ites.
So what should we do?
I propose two options, neither of which has occurred to Iraq Study Groupies calling for peace parleys with Hezbollah boosters and Holocaust deniers, or to hawkish proponents of "winning" Iraq (or at least Baghdad) with more troops. But maybe that's because neither group dares to reckon with the two greatest obstacles to our efforts in the region: namely, Islam (culturally unsuited to Westernity) and our own politically correct ROE, or rules of engagement (strategically unsuited to victory).
The first option is military, but it carries a seemingly insurmountable cultural override. The fact is, the United States has an arsenal that could obliterate any jihad threat in the region once and for all, whether that threat is bands of IED-exploding "insurgents" in Ramadi, the deadly so-called Mahdi Army in Sadr City, or genocidal maniacs in Tehran. In other words, it's a disgrace for military brass to talk about the 21st-century struggle with Islam as necessarily being a 50- to 100-year war. Ridiculous. It could be over in two weeks if we cared enough to blast our way off the list of endangered civilizations.
As a culture, however, the West is paralyzed by the specter of civilian casualties, massive or not, that accompanies modern (not high-tech) warfare, and fights accordingly. It may well have been massive civilian casualties in Germany (40,000 dead in Hamburg after one cataclysmic night of "fire-bombing" in 1943, for example) and Japan that helped end World War II in an Allied victory. But this is a price I doubt any Western power would pay for victory today.
So, the military solution — which isn't the same as boosting ROE-cuffed troop levels in Baghdad — is out, unless or until our desperation level rises to some unsupportably manic level. The great paradox of the "war on terror," of course, is that as our capacity and desire to protect civilians in warfare grows, our enemy's capacity and desire to kill civilians as a means of warfare grows also. Our fathers saved us from having to say, "Sieg Heil," but what's next — "Allahu akbar"?
Not necessarily. There's another Middle Eastern strategy to deter expansionist Islam: Get out of the way. Get out of the way of Sunnis and Shi'ites killing each other. As a sectarian conflict more than 1,000 years old, this is not only one fight we didn't start, but it's one we can't end. And why should we? If Iran, the jihad-supporting leader of the Shi'ite world, is being "strangled" by Saudi Arabia, the jihad-supporting leader of the Sunni world, isn't that good for the Sunni-and-Shiite-terrorized West?
With the two main sects of Islam preoccupied with an internecine battle of epic proportions, the non-Muslim world gets some breathing room. And we sure could use it — to plan for the next round.

 

RomSpaceKnight

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Oct 30, 2006
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What about the Kurds or the Assyrian christian populations of Iraq? Should Turkey be allowed a piece of the action? I doubt Iran or the Saudis could stop Turkish forces from carving a piece out of Iraq. Saddam was a murdering butchering thug who was poised to hand over the reigns of power to one of his pychopathic sons and yet the Iraqi people as a whole were better of before American "liberation". Turning tail and running would be the most cowardly act in history. The US needs to accept full and total responsibilty for the debacle in Iraq. The Soviets turned Afghanistan in to a total sh!thole and now the Americans have done it to Iraq. Is it no wonder some if not most middle easteners hate the west. The Russians created Osama, the Americans gave him credibility.
 

tamarin

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Jun 12, 2006
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Makes you wonder about the Darfur situation then. Why would the US be interested in intervening in the civil war there if it walks away from one in Iraq?
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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The US needs to accept full and total responsibilty for the debacle in Iraq.
--romspace

YOU SEE, that is where you are wrong...The IRAQIS need to accept full and total responsibility of the situation in Iraq. It was a nasty evil leader that they backed, and who caused the issues that lead to the terrorist funding and the harbouring and the aiding of terrorism that began a change. The leadership and government is now new, and in order for it to keep moving in a positive direction it has to be self-sufficent.

The US and Nato countries need to stop pouring in humatarian aid and make these countries become accountable and dependant on the profits that are pouring in from the oil.

The US AND NATO countries need to draw the line...our humanitarian aid is a joke because it frees up the few people who have any money from opium or from oil, to feel that they don't need to give to help rebuild and restructure their own country, why should they when the stupid US and nato countries continue to do it.

They despise us while we stupidly keep giving. Claiming poverty, they then offer rewards for their enemy for one hundred thousand dollars!!!! It is time to dry up the pipeline of cash, to support only honest and non-religious run governments that do not support terrorism and do not harbour criminals. But it is even more important to not support an education system that teaches children how to follow the Law of Islam. The Law of Islam is all about how to be a terrorists and how to hate Jews and Christians and how you must murder them in the name of Allah.

:grommit: :grommit: :grommit:
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Unfortunately,

Iraq is made up of mainly three different factions. Before the invasion there were warnings from many souces that removing Saddam Hussein would create a political vacuum and a civil war would most likely be the result. It seems those warnings were correct, as there is no doubt a civil war is now going on in Iraq. Right now and it is killing at least 3,000 Iraqis every month. Pulling out somehow seems irresponsible since the invaders caused a civil war that likely wouldn't have happened without the invasion. Saddam was/is a bastard but he could apparrently, control the different factions. The invading armies obviously cannot.. Between the first gulf war, and the sanctions, and the invasion, something over a million Iraqis have died and close to three thousand American and British soldiers have been killed. Tell me Mr. Bush, Has it been worth it???
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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Unfortunately,

Iraq is made up of mainly three different factions. Before the invasion there were warnings from many souces that removing Saddam Hussein would create a political vacuum and a civil war would most likely be the result. It seems those warnings were correct, as there is no doubt a civil war is now going on in Iraq. Right now and it is killing at least 3,000 Iraqis every month. Pulling out somehow seems irresponsible since the invaders caused a civil war that likely wouldn't have happened without the invasion. Saddam was/is a bastard but he could apparrently, control the different factions. The invading armies obviously cannot.. Between the first gulf war, and the sanctions, and the invasion, something over a million Iraqis have died and close to three thousand American and British soldiers have been killed. Tell me Mr. Bush, Has it been worth it???

Sadly I don't think it was worth it Juan, I just don't understand what Bush's motivation was to invade Irag. How will this mess be resolved? I see no end in this civil war, Saudi Arabia has warned Bush they will start financing the Sunnis (like they haven't been funnelling millions of dollars behind the scenes). My head is starting to ache, what a bloody mess.
 

EastSideScotian

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Naw they made their bed, time to lie...errr you know what i mean....sleep in it and such....


They made it the mess it is, Its only fair they fix it. They were willing to invade it and create a mess, they should be willing to say hey....we screwed it...let try and fix it some how....and if they cant, well they should be tryed for war crimes. or some sort world trail on their actions.
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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I am totally understanding the whys but the thing is that the truth is that we all keep getting suckered in to give, give, give, and they keep finding lots of cash to fund the terrorism...this is a joke, l am fed up and annoyed with the nasty Hate filled Islamists

and l don't think that any land for peace deal is going to do anything, there will never be peace, until the info of money stops.

That will require an alternative source for oil and petroleum, or a new method of energy, as well as controlling the drug problem that is growing.

dry up the money and you begin to control the paths of education and the amount of weaponry that can feed the hatred of Muhammad.

The only answer is stop the hatred at the root level, education, and stop the funding, including humanitarian aid. the saudis can pitch in and save everyone.

then our money can help rebuild and strenghten our own economy.
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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Bush's war approval ratings continues to drop:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/18/bush.poll/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Support for President Bush's management of the Iraq war has dropped to an all-time low even as his overall approval remains tepid but steady, according to a CNN poll released Monday.
The survey, conducted Friday through Sunday by Opinion Research Corp., found support for Bush's handling of the Iraq conflict has decreased to 28 percent from 34 percent in a poll taken October 13-15.
And a record 70 percent of respondents said they disapproved of Bush's war management, up from 64 percent in the October poll. (Watch CNN's Bill Schneider's report on the poll )
Meanwhile, Bush's overall job approval was 36 percent -- down only 1 percentage point from the previous CNN poll to pose that question December 5-7.
Sixty-two percent said they disapproved of his performance in office, up from 57 percent in the early December poll.
The poll released Monday, which surveyed 1,019 adults, had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Bush and his advisers are seeking a new strategy for the war in Iraq, where U.S. troops are battling an insurgency while trying to stem the sectarian violence that has become rampant since the February bombing of a revered Shiite mosque in Samarra. (Watch how even children are unable to escape the violence )
In a report earlier this month, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group called conditions in Iraq "grave and deteriorating."
Bush has been reluctant to embrace some of the report's key proposals, including a withdrawal of most U.S. combat troops by early 2008 and a call for direct talks with Iran and Syria.
Though 67 percent of those polled oppose the war in Iraq, only 54 percent said the U.S. should withdraw its troops immediately or within the next year, the poll states.
Asked if they thought victory in Iraq was possible, 48 percent said yes and 50 percent said no. Half of those polled said a stalemate was the most likely outcome of the war.
Widespread dissatisfaction with the war may be the impetus behind a dip in the approval ratings of Bush's handling of anti-terrorism efforts as well, the poll suggests.
Support for his management of anti-terrorism efforts dropped to 42 percent from 50 percent in the poll taken October 13-15. Disapproval of Bush's anti-terrorism efforts increased from 47 percent to 55 percent during that time.
Monday's poll results mark the first time more than 50 percent of respondents have registered disapproval on the topic.
The Bush administration has long argued that Iraq is the "central front" in the war on terrorism. Bush spent last week meeting with officials at the Pentagon and State Department, telling reporters he would not be rushed into a decision.
The White House said last week that Bush plans to outline a new strategy in early January, but the president has ruled out "leaving before the job is done."
In the Monday poll, 27 percent said that the U.S. needs to completely overhaul its strategy and 46 percent said major changes were needed.
Eighteen percent said minor changes were called for and 6 percent said the strategy should remain the same, according to the poll results.
Bush also welcomed a new defense secretary to his Cabinet on Monday as Robert Gates -- a former member of the study group -- took over from Donald Rumsfeld.
The president announced Rumsfeld's resignation the day after Republicans lost control of Congress in November's midterm elections.



Once the USA left Vietnam, troubles there increased but the problems corrected themselves soon enough as it adopted capitalism. Similar self correction will happen in Iraq eventually. Further military intervention in that country will avail Bush absolutely nothing.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Bush's war approval ratings continues to drop:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/18/bush.poll/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Support for President Bush's management of the Iraq war has dropped to an all-time low even as his overall approval remains tepid but steady, according to a CNN poll released Monday.
The survey, conducted Friday through Sunday by Opinion Research Corp., found support for Bush's handling of the Iraq conflict has decreased to 28 percent from 34 percent in a poll taken October 13-15.
And a record 70 percent of respondents said they disapproved of Bush's war management, up from 64 percent in the October poll. (Watch CNN's Bill Schneider's report on the poll )
Meanwhile, Bush's overall job approval was 36 percent -- down only 1 percentage point from the previous CNN poll to pose that question December 5-7.
Sixty-two percent said they disapproved of his performance in office, up from 57 percent in the early December poll.
The poll released Monday, which surveyed 1,019 adults, had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Bush and his advisers are seeking a new strategy for the war in Iraq, where U.S. troops are battling an insurgency while trying to stem the sectarian violence that has become rampant since the February bombing of a revered Shiite mosque in Samarra. (Watch how even children are unable to escape the violence )
In a report earlier this month, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group called conditions in Iraq "grave and deteriorating."
Bush has been reluctant to embrace some of the report's key proposals, including a withdrawal of most U.S. combat troops by early 2008 and a call for direct talks with Iran and Syria.
Though 67 percent of those polled oppose the war in Iraq, only 54 percent said the U.S. should withdraw its troops immediately or within the next year, the poll states.
Asked if they thought victory in Iraq was possible, 48 percent said yes and 50 percent said no. Half of those polled said a stalemate was the most likely outcome of the war.
Widespread dissatisfaction with the war may be the impetus behind a dip in the approval ratings of Bush's handling of anti-terrorism efforts as well, the poll suggests.
Support for his management of anti-terrorism efforts dropped to 42 percent from 50 percent in the poll taken October 13-15. Disapproval of Bush's anti-terrorism efforts increased from 47 percent to 55 percent during that time.
Monday's poll results mark the first time more than 50 percent of respondents have registered disapproval on the topic.
The Bush administration has long argued that Iraq is the "central front" in the war on terrorism. Bush spent last week meeting with officials at the Pentagon and State Department, telling reporters he would not be rushed into a decision.
The White House said last week that Bush plans to outline a new strategy in early January, but the president has ruled out "leaving before the job is done."
In the Monday poll, 27 percent said that the U.S. needs to completely overhaul its strategy and 46 percent said major changes were needed.
Eighteen percent said minor changes were called for and 6 percent said the strategy should remain the same, according to the poll results.
Bush also welcomed a new defense secretary to his Cabinet on Monday as Robert Gates -- a former member of the study group -- took over from Donald Rumsfeld.
The president announced Rumsfeld's resignation the day after Republicans lost control of Congress in November's midterm elections.



Once the USA left Vietnam, troubles there increased but the problems corrected themselves soon enough as it adopted capitalism. Similar self correction will happen in Iraq eventually. Further military intervention in that country will avail Bush absolutely nothing.

I'd be inclined to agree with you Goph, 'cept for the fact that the religious sects seem to have a "moral" compunction to kill each other because everyone different from their respective cult is an infidel. In Vietnam the capitalists hauled ass. Maybe because there are no virgins waiting for those that amass the most wealth. But in Iraq, it isn't a man-made doctrine they are fighting for(at least in their minds) its divine, and there are rewards for the martyrs...
 

annabattler

Electoral Member
Jun 3, 2005
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I think most people would agree that under Saddam Hussein, the Iraqis at least knew where they stood....their infrastructure was in good shape, people were employed,children were receiving an education.( We need to keep in mind that it was Britain,in 1919, who decided to place a "border" around Iraq, and thus enclosed people of differing religious and cultural sentiments.) Very similar to Tito's ability to maintain peace and prosperity for Yugoslavia,despite the fact his country was also made up of opposing factions.
Large numbers of us felt that an Iraq invasion,pre-emptive or not,was a huge mistake.,and a costly one,in terms of dollars and cents,and more importantly,in terms of loss of human life.
Exit strategies can be very difficult. However,we all know there will be many more lives lost,no matter what strategy is chosen.
I'm leaning toward letting the Iraqi people decide what THEY want..if civil war erupts,then it's up to them to sort it out(without Amnerican,or any foreign) intervention.
And maybe some of the larger western powers will learn a thing or two as well, like how NOT to precipitate a crisis half way around the world.
 

mabudon

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Mar 15, 2006
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At this point, there's no way for anyone to stop the various surrounding countries as they try to vie for a slice of the pie (nice rhyming there, actually)
The stubborn refusal to admit defeat and get the heck out on the part of the US will prolong this odd suspended state of violence in Iraq for as long as it continues

And already, the groundwork is being laid for "Iraqization", like in Vietnam, the US (even the Dems) has decided to shoft the strategy to blaming Iraqis for what is happeneing, so when they do wash their hands of it, they can claim some kind of victory

Stability would likely come pretty fast on the heels of a US/Western withdrawal from the area- it might not become some shining beacon of democracy or anything, but it will most definitely be an expression of sober reality, which is hard for folks to take since they've been divorced so completely from it for so long by various different factors
 

ottawabill

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May 27, 2005
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oddly enough...It doesn't matter if the U.S. stays or goes..these wahoo's will fight it out anyways...just take them longer if the U.S. stays in place...

All they know is fighting to gain your position, Only very strong dicators can ever keep it down i.e. Sadam, Tito, King of Saudi Arabia etc... these people have no idea how to "do" democracy. The will vote then when they don't like what they voted for they fight..look at Gaza this week..look at Haiti..Unfortunately that is there way..I don't think we in the west will ever change them or understand them...

like i want to understand them??
 

EastSideScotian

Stuck in Ontario...bah
Jun 9, 2006
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oddly enough...It doesn't matter if the U.S. stays or goes..these wahoo's will fight it out anyways...just take them longer if the U.S. stays in place...

All they know is fighting to gain your position, Only very strong dicators can ever keep it down i.e. Sadam, Tito, King of Saudi Arabia etc... these people have no idea how to "do" democracy. The will vote then when they don't like what they voted for they fight..look at Gaza this week..look at Haiti..Unfortunately that is there way..I don't think we in the west will ever change them or understand them...

like i want to understand them??
Yea thats pretty bang on. I guess it wouldnt really matter if the US stays or goes, the only differance will be less dead Americans. Which is definatly a good thing.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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I came across this article on Irag, the extremists are now running pockets of Iraq read some of the new "Laws" being enforced by the Extremist.

Sunni insurgents seek to carve
out a new Islamic state in Iraq

<FONT size=2>By Yasmin Ahmed
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Sadly I don't think it was worth it Juan, I just don't understand what Bush's motivation was to invade Irag. How will this mess be resolved? I see no end in this civil war, Saudi Arabia has warned Bush they will start financing the Sunnis (like they haven't been funnelling millions of dollars behind the scenes). My head is starting to ache, what a bloody mess.

I get the feeling that Iraq will end up as two or three smaller countries. I don't know how long it will take, or how many lives it will cost. It is high time our so-called world leaders looked further than the end of their noses and considered the ramifications of starting wars in already unstable areas.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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It is hard to understand what motivates people to be so vicious and to resist peace talks and regard children as weaponry.

The Quran is the driving force. Currently it is the wedge that has brought the Muslim people to kill each other, which is exactly opposite of what they have been taught by Muhammad to do.

The way l understand it is that when Mu died their where two who both felt they had a right to the position of being his successor.

This divided the followers and some formed behind one, becoming the Shia's of today, and the other becoming the Sunnis' of today.

The Sunni's backed by Alisha, muhammads bride [he married her when she was 6 and he was 51], inherited all the lands which now comprise most of the Middle east, and specifically SAUDI ARABIA.

Then the Quran was found in both written and verbal form as the seven tribes had a representative to pass on the teachings in that particular language in a verbal chant.

So now in Iraq we see the 'civil' war which is actually land and oil rights, representing billions of dollars from ...YES FROM US!!!

When the NATO forces answered the invitation to war they captured Saddam and the UN took over the treasury...it was corrupt and half a billion was missing...since then the money has been accumulating.

Thus Iran plugged in Hezzbollah, hoping this terrorist organization could grab hold of the country and thus Iran would increase in power and wealth, keeping it from the rightful owners ...those people who live in the slums.

Thus Syria plugged in Hamas , hoping that this terrorist organization counld help sieze the assets and then they could be richer and more powerful.

It all comes back to the teachings of the very first terrorist, Muhammad, who began his carreer robbing caravans, murdering, torturing and raping as he went, and having notes taken along the way.

Now the people in who he wanted his Satanic {his words not mine} Verses to be inheritated as well as proceeds from these criminal actions...and this is the divided Muslims, and most noteably those in the slums, the dirt poor, who have been taught nothing but hatred from childbirth.

So when the terrorist declared war by action and by world, and celebrated the death of thousands of innocent people, and we answered as NATO alliance nations, we had no idea of the law of Islam, and how it is the underlying reason for motivation, resistance to peace, and constant violence. ..all in the name of Allah.

Being used to our Christian, Jewish and Pagean world that supports the Geneva Convention and the Security Council Resolutions, Multi-Culturism and Freedom, it is hard to get a grip on the teachings of the Quran in which decit, robbery and violence is celebrated rather than punished.

It is important though, to understand that if Nuclear Weaponry gets in the hands of those who hate us, we will be a target...to not get that is just gross ignorance.

And that is precisely why we have to hang in and try to settle this the best way we can, and then to not fund the Middle EAST with humanitarian aid, and oil money and opium since it is not helping the situation.
 
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L Gilbert

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Unfortunately,

Iraq is made up of mainly three different factions. Before the invasion there were warnings from many souces that removing Saddam Hussein would create a political vacuum and a civil war would most likely be the result. It seems those warnings were correct, as there is no doubt a civil war is now going on in Iraq. Right now and it is killing at least 3,000 Iraqis every month. Pulling out somehow seems irresponsible since the invaders caused a civil war that likely wouldn't have happened without the invasion. Saddam was/is a bastard but he could apparrently, control the different factions. The invading armies obviously cannot.. Between the first gulf war, and the sanctions, and the invasion, something over a million Iraqis have died and close to three thousand American and British soldiers have been killed. Tell me Mr. Bush, Has it been worth it???
I agree, Juan. The US should keep its nose in its own business. Unfortunately the CIA wanders about the planet making assumptions about things (the situation in El Salvador between early '80s and '90s is a prime example of CIA incompetence, and this is another prime example) and the US admin actually listens to the CIA and takes them seriously.
The area was relatively stable with Soddam Insane running Iraq. Unfortunately, he's as homicidally wacko as Hitler was. If he needed to be removed (a grand idea), it should have been an Islamic crew that did it.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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Does anyone else fear a third world war brewing in the wind? Once they stop killing each other will they stand silent for a moment and come after countries who believe in "Freedom", they don't seem to understand the concept of "Freedom and Liberty" will the West be next? Will we have the fortitude and stomach for the fight or will the PC crowd sell out our way of live lest we offend our invaders?:evil3:
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
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The US should keep its nose in its own business. Unfortunately the CIA wanders about the planet making assumptions about things (the situation in El Salvador between early '80s and '90s is a prime example of CIA incompetence, and this is another prime example) and the US admin actually listens to the CIA and takes them seriously.
The area was relatively stable with Soddam Insane running Iraq. Unfortunately, he's as homicidally wacko as Hitler was. If he needed to be removed (a grand idea), it should have been an Islamic crew that did it.
--l.gilbert

It isn't that simple, you need to look a little deeper. see my comments above.