Should the government guarantee full-time minimum wage?

[Liberalman]

A single vote doesn't mean much, especially when all the employees can just be let go and replaced with cheaper employees.

Germany also has legislation that guarantees raises, and forces employers to give permanent contracts after a certain number of contract extensions. If you have had 3 contracts or have been working at the same place for more than 5 years, you basically cannot be fired.

Industry is not suffering there for minimum wage.

But you are dodging the point: a race to the bottom means that 1 person will be hired for a day over 2 persons at a slightly higher salary working for half a day each. What law is going to stop that from happening?



This doesn't work because the government interferes with the freedom of the union to strike. So long as the government has that power, they need to provide some regulations on businesses as well. If the government lost that power, the unions would coagulate, regulate a minimum wage for all employees, and effectively be the new government.

That's how anarchy works in practice anyways.

If it is a hardship for the national economy the government might but those jobs are far from minimum wage jobs the and I don't think the government cares about the eating place workers, janitors, hotel workers and so on you know the jobs the illegal and legal immigrants take the ones regular people would pass over

 

[Niflmir]

Well then if you insist on a minimum wage, then seeing that it could potentially legislate a person out of work, it's reasonable to guarantee a full-time minimum wage to the unemployed too right?

Actually, my argument is that the minimum wage actually decreases unemployment, I have yet to see you provide evidence to support that minimum wage increases unemployment.

 

[Machjo]

Actually, my argument is that the minimum wage actually decreases unemployment, I have yet to see you provide evidence to support that minimum wage increases unemployment.

I have no proof but it is just common sense. If you raise minimum wage 20.00 an hour or 50.00 or 100.00 an hour, what is the effect?

 

[Liberalman]

I have no proof but it is just common sense. If you raise minimum wage 20.00 an hour or 50.00 or 100.00 an hour, what is the effect?

Better house parties

 

[Cabbagesandking]

You have already, ,y opinion on this so I think I will sit back and see what others think. Further than that, I support a Guaranteed Annual Income.

Here is a study that you might like to read for the purposes of the discussion. It supports what I said on the other thread about the decline in minimum wage. It also claims that minimum wage does not increase unemployment. There are others that show it works both ways. I don't think there are any that say the effect is great.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/si...Pubs/2007/minimum_wage_above_poverty_line.pdf

 

[Liberalman]

You have already, ,y opinion on this so I think I will sit back and see what others think. Further than that, I support a Guaranteed Annual Income.

Here is a study that you might like to read for the purposes of the discussion. It supports what I said on the other thread about the decline in minimum wage. It also claims that minimum wage does not increase unemployment. There are others that show it works both ways. I don't think there are any that say the effect is great.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/si...Pubs/2007/minimum_wage_above_poverty_line.pdf

Raising the minimum wage helps the government in raising more taxes and helps the worker stay for a little longer.

The companies that pay minimum wage do not mind the high employee turn over and the skill level is easy to teach.

Raising the minimum wage helps the government get re-elected

 

[JLM]

There should be no minimum wage that the government forces on businesses, workers should form unions so they can get a better rate of pay and benefits.

In some provinces unions provide the workers for all businesses and if they don't want to pay they do not get the workers they need to operate their businesses. This should be the case accross Canada

You mean so we can pay for another level of bureaucracy! Perhaps there is an Economics 1 course available in your community!

 

[Liberalman]

You mean so we can pay for another level of bureaucracy! Perhaps there is an Economics 1 course available in your community!

The economist are the ones getting it wrong because the rules are always changing so Economics 1 would be a waste of time

 

[JLM]

Actually, my argument is that the minimum wage actually decreases unemployment, I have yet to see you provide evidence to support that minimum wage increases unemployment.

It's actually pretty simple to figure out using logic..................Son 'o Mac gets a raise, so what do you think happens to Big Mac? Big Mac becomes "more valuable" to cover increased wages and what do you think happens to us old codgers on fixed income when sloppy old Mac goes from $11 to $12? We don't go there anymore. We buy a lb. of hamburger for $5 and a dozen buns for $3 and build our own at home for 70 cents a piece.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

It's actually pretty simple to figure out using logic..................Son 'o Mac gets a raise, so what do you think happens to Big Mac? Big Mac becomes "more valuable" to cover increased wages and what do you think happens to us old codgers on fixed income when sloppy old Mac goes from $11 to $12? We don't go there anymore. We buy a lb. of hamburger for $5 and a dozen buns for $3 and build our own at home for 70 cents a piece.

Don't you buy day olds? You are paying far more than you need.

 

[Goober]

I have no proof but it is just common sense. If you raise minimum wage 20.00 an hour or 50.00 or 100.00 an hour, what is the effect?

Your number are unrealistic. Look at the numbers - many people on min wage work more than 1 job.

List of minimum wages in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[taxslave]

The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.

 

[Bar Sinister]

The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.

 

[JLM]

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.

"Poverty" quite often has more to do with how much you spend more than how much you earn!

 

[damngrumpy]

It is like legislating a moral issue, unfortunately these things come into being and end up
not being updated for years. When the poor or entry level workers are in that position
they often fall behind. BC just got a raise, the problem is the wage was nearly ten years
old and the hike is not in keeping with the reality of the times.
I hire people for periods of time during the year, I would never think of hiring minimum wage
employees. You get what you pay for. I have the same people come back year after year
because they receive a wage at least four to five dollars above minimum wage.
In addition everyone has lunch on the veranda and we provide it.
It is an old fashioned farming operation in that those who work for us are more like family.
People are treated fairly and with respect. I also know some real scoundrels in the farm
industry and I would say you need to legislate something because they do take advantage
of people.

 

[JLM]

It is like legislating a moral issue, unfortunately these things come into being and end up
not being updated for years. When the poor or entry level workers are in that position
they often fall behind. BC just got a raise, the problem is the wage was nearly ten years
old and the hike is not in keeping with the reality of the times.
I hire people for periods of time during the year, I would never think of hiring minimum wage
employees. You get what you pay for. I have the same people come back year after year
because they receive a wage at least four to five dollars above minimum wage.
In addition everyone has lunch on the veranda and we provide it.
It is an old fashioned farming operation in that those who work for us are more like family.
People are treated fairly and with respect. I also know some real scoundrels in the farm
industry and I would say you need to legislate something because they do take advantage
of people.

You wouldn't be thinking of those employers who provide travel back and forth in vans with bald tires that can carry up to 15 passengers but only have seat belts for three? :lol:

 

[skookumchuck]

It's actually pretty simple to figure out using logic..................Son 'o Mac gets a raise, so what do you think happens to Big Mac? Big Mac becomes "more valuable" to cover increased wages and what do you think happens to us old codgers on fixed income when sloppy old Mac goes from $11 to $12? We don't go there anymore. We buy a lb. of hamburger for $5 and a dozen buns for $3 and build our own at home for 70 cents a piece.

Some of us on fixed income add oatmeal to the burger. Sometimes i have to cook burger an extra 5 minutes to get rid of a 1/4 inch of water in the frying pan. Don't go to that store anymore.
I seldom go to a fast food place because i can buy two days worth of meals for the 14 bucks or so a decent burger and fries for each of us cost, besides, mine are way better.

 

[JLM]

Some of us on fixed income add oatmeal to the burger. Sometimes i have to cook burger an extra 5 minutes to get rid of a 1/4 inch of water in the frying pan. Don't go to that store anymore.
I seldom go to a fast food place because i can buy two days worth of meals for the 14 bucks or so a decent burger and fries for each of us cost, besides, mine are way better.

When purchasing hamburger at the grocery store I only purchase the "lean" variety and if you watch the fliers you can occasionally find it for $2 a lb. Oatmeal is a healthy additive.

 

[Machjo]

Your number are unrealistic. Look at the numbers - many people on min wage work more than 1 job.

List of minimum wages in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Realistic or not, the effect is the same, just not as extreme.

If the minimum wage is below or equal to the actual wage, it's redundant,; and if higher, it increases the risk of layoffs.

So rather than raise the minimum wage, how about raising employability so as to raise salaries natrually.

Also, should we introduce some kind of peace corps or some other organization that guarantees employment for the unemployed, then that would serve as a kind of minimum wage in that the moment this peace corps becomes more attractive than what's being offered on the market, people would join this peace corps, thus causing labour shortages in the private sector, thus forcing the private sector to outbid this peace corps. This would in effect serve to create a kind of unofficial minimum wage anyway.

What you seem to be suggesting is that without minimum wage all wages would drop to zero. If true, then how do you explain that many jobs pay above minimum wage as is?

The problem with a high minimum wage is that you can price an employer right out of business. Fast foods is a prime example. Ignoring the fact that most of it isn't healthy these places do provide a lot of employment and not just the minimum wage clerks. Now if a hamburger was to be priced at $10.00 to provide all the workers with a decent wage how many people could afford to buy a hamburger? This could very well force a closure or severe curtailing of the business.
We start our construction laborers at $12/hr with no experience. About 1 in five is worth that much. Probably 1 in five is worth more than that. That leaves 3 out of five that are a dead cost. Those good ones we try to keep but by having too many high priced helpers we become uncompetitive in the market and they all loose their jobs. Me too for that matter.

So you ageree then that the minimum wage also hurts unskilled labour I assume?

If so, that's exactly my point. The minimum wage hurts those it aims to help the most, ironically enough. Anyone who actually cared about unskilled workers and the unemployed would support eliminating the minimum wage and instead find ways to actually help them rather than hinder them.

What you describe is essentially the situation in much of Europe. Wages for the average worker are higher, therefore, the amount charged in various businesses has to be higher to cover costs. Europeans, however, do not seem to have much problem with paying the higher prices judging from the number of small businesses that flourish in every town. Mom and Pop businesses seem to exist on every street corner and in between.

I suspect that higher wages may have a dual effect. One is that they make goods and services more expensive. But the other is that they give the average wage earner a bit more to spend so one may cancel out the other.

So if they just cancel each other out, then what's the point?

I'm not sure how the situation relates to Canada. For one thing minimum wage is a provincial responsibility, so the federal government has no control over it. However, I will say that if a job exists then the person doing it is entitled to a decent living wage. No one should be forced to work in conditions of dire poverty with little or no chance of advancement.

I agree. I could see a situation whereby anyone would have the right to quit his job and go on social assistance at any time without being penalized. In this way social security would serve as a natural minimum wage of sorts, but I'm sure most people would rather work at a low wage than get the measely amount the government gives. Minimum wage takes that choice away whereby a person who would rather work at slightly below the current minimum wage is forced out of the market and forced to accept social assistance at half that. Is that not a form of cruelty and abuse? Certainly if social assistance is generous enough, then there ought to be no need for minimum wage, or likewise if some kind of guaranteed government employment programme like some kind of peace corps paid a decent wage that would serve as a form of wage control too.

When we have to introduce minimum wage, is that not a tacit admission that social security sucks so badly that we need a minimum wage to prevent people to willingly work for less? If social security or other guaranteed employment programme were decent, it would be redundant, don't you think?

 

[DurkaDurka]

Full time guaranteed minimum wage does nothing, instead of legislating something like that the government should offer them some sort of training and or a plane ticket to Alberta to work as a labourer in the oil industry.