Should Europe and/or Israel seize the Suez?

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
I hope no one closes the Suez. As for democracy, that shouldn't even be a discussion here because as has been said before no country in the Mid-East is a democracy with the exception of Israel which is a religious democracy. Some may have a so called elected President, but like Mubarak are/were in for life supported by one group or another, not the people..
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
71
Saint John, N.B.
Israel, that shining beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east is urging all nations to support dictator Mubarak:


AFP: Israel seeks support for Mubarak: report


As Israeli leaders well know, Mubarak isn't exactly a "forgive and forget" kind of guy. If he stays in power, he would order his security apparatus to hunt down, arrest, torture and execute protesters.

There is no going back. The protesters know their lives are at stake and that they have to topple Mubarak or face the consequences for failing, which in many cases would be worse than death.

That is because Israel wants peace. Israel signed a peace treaty with Mubarak's mentor, Anwar Sadat..........and Mubarak has honoured it. Egypt is easily the most militarily powerful of the Arab nations, so peace with Egypt is important to Israel, and to stability in the region. Why do you think the USA has been so generous with Egypt?

If, (and that is only an IF) the Muslim Brotherhood gains power through the manipulation of the current popular movement, both democracy and peace will be a dream..........

I think Israel is wrong.....I think the gamble for democracy in Egypt is worthwhile.....but I live a world away. A political mis step that brings the Muslim Brotherhood to power means nothing to me. Israel, however, is surrounded by enemies, and could easily be left with an unpleasant choice should Egypt ally with Hezbollah's Lebanon and Syria, and Iran.....that choice being the end of the nation, or nuclear war.

I understand their desire for stability.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Israeli colony building on occupied Palestinian land is a war crime... and a clear indication where Israeli leaders stand regarding a fair and just peace.

The Americans bribe Mubarak to ignore the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved next door and keep the peace with Israel. I predict a free and fair Egypt won't be so compliant. On the bright side, if Egyptians chart an independent course, it'll save American taxpayers about $1.4B a year in bribe money.

I guess we will find out the level of support for the Muslim Brotherhood in upcoming elections. I doubt they will lead the next government. But if the Egyptians believe they are best suited to lead their country, that's their choice. Its called freedom.

An unpopular dictatorship is not a stable situation. If Egypt's military cracked down on the protesters and drove this movement underground it would just resurface again meaner and nastier.

Israel has a few months to adjust their policies to deal with a free Egypt that will care about how Israel treats Palestinians. I suggest they use that time wisely.
 
Last edited:

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
I don't see any threat to the canal from this political unrest. The demonstrations are primarily in Cairo and if you check a map of Egypt you will see that there are quite a few kilometers of unforgiving desert before anyone can get to the canal from there. Also, any new Egyptian government, no matter how radical will still want the revenue from the canal.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
71
Saint John, N.B.
Israeli colony building on occupied Palestinian land is a war crime... and a clear indication where Israeli leaders stand regarding a fair and just peace.

The Americans bribe Mubarak to ignore the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved next door and keep the peace with Israel. I predict a free and fair Egypt won't be so compliant. On the bright side, if Egyptians chart an independent course, it'll save American taxpayers about $1.4B a year in bribe money.

I guess we will find out the level of support for the Muslim Brotherhood in upcoming elections. I doubt they will lead the next government. But if the Egyptians believe they are best suited to lead their country, that's their choice. Its called freedom.

An unpopular dictatorship is not a stable situation. If Egypt's military cracked down on the protesters and drove this movement underground it would just resurface again meaner and nastier.

Israel has a few months to adjust their policies to deal with a free Egypt that will care about how Israel treats Palestinians. I suggest they use that time wisely.

Oh, give it a fricking break. " the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved" This brain-dead propaganda BS really grates on the nerves...........the Egyptians are at peace with Israel, because it is advantageous for them to be so....the USA being better allies than the USSR..........

And when are you morons going to get it through your thick skulls that fundamentalist Islam is completely incompatable with both peace and democracy?

The Koran instructs that government without Allah is haram..........and that Muslims must kill Jews.

Grow a fricking brain.

An alternate view:

http://ezralevant.com/2011/01/saddam-husseins-lawyer-set-to.html

Coptic Christians are not happy either.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116222399438428.html?mod=fox_australian

I should correct myself.....it is not the Koran, but the Hadith (deeds and quotes attributed to the Prophet) that bids Muslims kill Jews.
“"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
 
Last edited:

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Israel, that shining beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east is urging all nations to support dictator Mubarak

Indeed... while protests and marches in support for the people in Egypt are happening in places like Canada, the UK, etc., The US and more importantly, Israel, are worried about losing Mubarak. Already in recent reports, Israeli officials have been voicing their concerns about losing one of their few allies in the middles east.

Forget the fact that their so-called ally is a dictator who's been in power for something like 30 years..... and forget the fact that Egyptians are fed up with this dictatorship and his corrupt government and want what many others in the world seem to take for granted.... their only concern is losing this dictator they call an ally.

Their whole argument stands on the assumption that if Mubarak is taken out of power, an islamic government will take his place..... and since it might be Islamic.... the big "booga booga" word of the decade, suddenly that means they'll want to destroy Israel too.

How much of an ally is that when they're your ally only when it best suits their interests to be an ally, regardless of the oppression and termoil your people have to go through?

Even if it became an islamic state, that is not an automatic conclusion that they'll suddenly become your enemy.

Cuba is communist, yet Canada trades and deals with them openly.... for quite a few years mind you..... and Cuba isn't trying to blow us up are they? It's wasn't too long ago when the word Communist was floated around much like "Islamic" is being floated around today..... as if anything related to Islam is ready to eat your babies while they sleep in their cribs and stomp your puppy dog with a twist of their heel.

Just because people believe or do things differently, that doesn't automatically mean they're the enemy or are always going to try and kill you. Some people would like you to believe that, but those some people have problems with things different from themselves and thus feel the need to attack or oppress those things that are different....... which in turn makes those on the other side view us as enemies out to do exactly what some of us fear they'll do to us.

It's a wonderful cycle really..... a cycle that allows ignorance, fear and violence to continue and spread.

And here's another thing.....

All these people revolting and rioting/protesting for Mubarak to step down seem to want elections and to be able to vote in their leaders much like our nations do today..... what sense would it make for them to push this guy out, just to push in another dictator or government that acts like a dictator-collective?

Most signs, depending on where you look for them, show favor towards the democratic process..... regardless if that democratic process brings in an islamic government or not, it's not for Canada, the US, Israel or anybody else to try and force it to change into something they prefer..... if they were democratically elected into office and are whom the majority of people want in to run their country, then that's democracy for you.

To suggest one or more nations jump into their country to force things to change to what they like simply because they voted for some party or person those countries don't like, is what's undemocratic and is no better then leaving Mubarak into power to continue to oppress and rule those people with an iron fist..... because once again, it's not the people's voices being heard, it's either a dictator's voice or another oppressive nation's voice being heard whom only have their best interests at play.

For Trotz to even suggest or support action such as a blockade or worse, simply based on what-if's, to me is very hypocritical.

Mubarak should step down.... democratic elections should take place, people should vote for who they want and be done with it...... move on from there.

Sure Israel might be concerned with losing an ally and might put their security at risk..... but last I checked, this had nothing to do with Israel.

Nations that claim to practice, believe and support democracy should not be supporting a dictator that their own people hate and want removed, especially when those people voice themselves as much as the Egyptians are doing now.

Support the people and their collective wishes, not dictators that do you favors from time to time..... otherwise, you're no better.

Oh, give it a fricking break. " the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved" This brain-dead propaganda BS really grates on the nerves...........the Egyptians are at peace with Israel, because it is advantageous for them to be so....the USA being better allies than the USSR..........

just to pop in here, I believe he was refering to Gaza and the West Bank in regards to people being bombed and starved.....

......ignore the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved next door ........

which to a degree, is true.
 
Last edited:

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Oh, give it a fricking break. " the screams of millions of people getting bombed and starved" This brain-dead propaganda BS really grates on the nerves...........the Egyptians are at peace with Israel, because it is advantageous for them to be so....the USA being better allies than the USSR..........

And when are you morons going to get it through your thick skulls that fundamentalist Islam is completely incompatable with both peace and democracy?

The Koran instructs that government without Allah is haram..........and that Muslims must kill Jews.

Grow a fricking brain.

An alternate view:

Saddam Hussein's lawyer set to take over Egypt - Ezra Levant

Coptic Christians are not happy either.

Coptic Christians Worry About Future Without Mubarak - WSJ.com

I should correct myself.....it is not the Koran, but the Hadith (deeds and quotes attributed to the Prophet) that bids Muslims kill Jews.
“"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

I followed your links above. They are pure trash.

The first tries to play down the significance of what's going on in Egypt, and spins the facts regarding the people involved and their motivations. I watched the live video of last Friday's crowd in Tahrir Square. The crowd had to be over a hundred thousand. If they weren't that big, how is it possible they overwhelmed thousands of police and security.

Look at the live video streaming on Aljazeera right now
http://english.aljazeera.net/
You will see a crowd which looks like more than a million people. Some reports peg the number at 2 million. I'm watching the live video on Aljazeera and every time they pan the crowd, its looks bigger than the previous time, so the crowd continues to grow.

This is a movement by the people and for the people, which is how Egyptians would want to change their government.

The second link is blatant fear mongering in support of a cruel oppressive dictator.

This is an opportunity to find out who truly supports democratic freedoms and ideals and who doesn't. Its crunch time and Colpy's irrational Islamaphobic fear mongering indicates he supports a brutal dictator rather than freedom and democracy.
 
Last edited:

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
Democracy has no chance of workingin the Mid-East

Why the United States of America was not founded as a Democracy.
In Federalist Paper No. 10 James Madison, writing as Publius discussed at length the evil of factions. Whether the faction be a minority or a majority its actions tend to disrupt public order; threaten property; and reduce respect for the government and the rule of law. Where the faction is a majority it will simply crush the opposition.
Madison concluded that the source of faction resided in man's nature and could not be eliminated except by a total denial of individual liberty or by forcing every individual to have the same interests, opinions and passions. Either one of these made the cure worse than the disease.
Since the causes of faction were innate one could only hope to create a government which by its structure and practice would mitigate the effects of faction while still preserving the principle of personal liberty.
Of pure democracy Madison wrote:
"... democracies have been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
Next he briefly discusses what today would pass for American liberalism, German National Socialism, or even Marxism.
"Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality of their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."
A republic, by which he means a scheme of representation, opens up a different prospect and reduces the effects of factionalism to a minimum.
Veritas
The Electoral College
Every four years there is a discussion of the electoral college and calls for its abolition. In over forty years I have yet to hear the real reason for its existence.
The electoral college exists for the purpose of maintaining a state's proportional representation to the Federal Government on the day of the election. That's it.
An example should suffice:
Supposing on election day Vermont is covered in 8 feet of snow and southern Florida is experiencing the hurricane of the millenium. Because of the weather only 12% of Vermont voters are able to vote and only 30% of Florida's voters likewise can vote.
With direct elections, the states of Florida and Vermont would be severely under-represented in the national election simply because of the weather!
There are other reasons as well but this simple example is a key to a fuller understanding of why this institution exists.
http://amsov.com/amsov.htm
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
74
Ottawa ,Canada
Tried that. Brits, France and Israel.

1956.

The Yanks got all upset.

Right now Israel and Egypt are at peace.........seizure of the Canal would be very counter-productive.

If they close it.....all bets are off.
Right now Israel and Egypt are at peace.........seizure of the Canal would be very counter-productive.

If they close it.....all bets are off.
And when are you morons going to get it through your thick skulls that fundamentalist Islam is completely incompatable with both peace and democracy?


I think Canada should step in , seize the canal and show the whole world how things are done the Canadian way.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
5,732
0
36
Santa Cruz, California
...(including the cancelled F-35)...

Just for clarity, the F-22 Raptor was cut off at something just under 200 aircraft. Production lines on the F-22 were cut so the money could be plowed into production of the F-35. I think the US plans to build 3000 F-35s for itself and its allies.

And what if Canada should decide to close off the North West Passage? Valid reason to invade Canada? What's the difference?

Now of course it would be stupid to close the canal off, but seeing that in principle it is on their soil, it's theirs, just like Panama is free to make the rules for the Panama Canal and Canada for the North West Passage.

Which nations recognize Canada's claim to exclusive control over the North West Passage?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
I think Canada should step in , seize the canal and show the whole world how things are done the Canadian way.


Not too bright having "a boy do a man's job" :lol:

BaalsTears; Which nations recognize Canada's claim to exclusive control over the North West Passage?[/QUOTE said:
New Zealand?
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
67
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
- Islamic Brotherhood -

I watched CBS and al-Jazeera today. Both agreed that this cult's role in the present social movement are comparatively insignificant.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
Be thankful they are comparatively insignificant.


"Two unfortunate developments in this century have impaired this Brotherhood. The first was the destruction of Khilafah and the emergence of independent nation-states in the Muslim world. This made it possible for "national interests" to be declared that are at cross-purposes to the interests of the Brotherhood. Not only that, it destroyed the means for both defining and defending the Brotherhood interests. The second development was the emergence of the United Nations Organization and the participation of individual Muslim nation-states in it, solely at its terms. The U.N. was and remains an organization of unequal powers, designed to perpetuate that inequality. Its purpose was to establish hegemony of the Western alliance over the rest of the world--- not for any higher moral purpose but solely for economic exploitation. Its very structure (with real decision making in the hands of a few in the Security Council ) guaranteed the disenfranchisement of the weak, and the entire Muslim world found itself in that category at the end of official colonialism."

Islamic Brotherhood