Should canada have high-speed rail?

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
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Well, you might notice a common thread here, and if you've forgotten, the race to the moon was a Cold War exercise. The Soviets beat us to space, we'll beat 'em to the moon. Wars, or threats of them are ripe breeding grounds for innovation. I personally don't want that to be the impetus for progress, though the advancement is good, the human cost is too high.



The problem with a national "vision", or leaders wth one, is that it ends up being someone's birthchild. Politicians use them to bolster their egos, gain favour, gain power. If it is a failed "vision", they will pump rediculous amounts money into it, our money. Stalin had a vision, so did Mao, not all visions are benevolent or altruistic. A entrpreneurial vision, on the other hand, incurs some risk without an infinite flow of our capital and requires some caution. But the driving force is still money.

So, let's see now - are you saying it is better to have no vision? I'm using that term in this sense...to guide the country or, something that would let us to "see" where we're going.

All I'm saying is, any big changes (such as hi-speed rail) should likely result from needs that emerge from a long term vision. Trying to do something that big without a vision would likely result in a lot of people being opposed to it, or thinking it would cost "too much" money, or whatever...in other words, lots of valid opinions based on many individuals' "visions" of what it means. But we're talking about a whole country...and I don't believe Canada has a vision for the future.

Canada has a great deal of potential to be whatever it wants to be...I think we should decide what that is because if we don't, we leave it open for other people (or countries) to decide for us. After all, we own a pile of resources that other countries don't have. And they need them.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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I know that recently there has been a big chunk of money
allocated out to VIA rail to upgrade track, so that passenger trains don't have to pull off and wait for
freight trains to pass, as much as they do now, that
will be a great improvemenmt. We had one very long wait,
because a freight derailed, and a chunk of time was lost
waiting for that to be cleaned up before we could proceed.

Put us about 2 hours late getting into Jasper, didn't
matter to us, we were getting off there, but for those
passengers continueing on, they lost 2 hours of valuable
daylight, hence didn't see near as much of the rockies
and as they would have under normal conditions.

Train didn't leave Jasper till after 3:30 p.m., not that
much daylight left in the middle of October.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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There are no truckers under 40? The whole trucking industry wouldn't die, you know.
Besides the average person changes careers 5 or 6 times in their life.

You didn't read what I wrote, or get my meaning. I meant it will be the truckers, or other workers , (I wrote 40 years on the road), 50 and up that'll be kicking horse turds down the road. If you lose your job much later than that you're pretty much screwed. Employers want young bucks who'll work longer hours for lower wages, and are more than a few lunch breaks away from retirement. I don't know too many folks who've change careers 5 times, jobs maybe. I've had many of them, but generally in the same field or occupation, but then again I'm pretty resiliant, Cape Breton, for example is entirely populated by folks who aren't as much so.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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Mountain Veiw County
All I'm saying is, any big changes (such as hi-speed rail) should likely result from needs that emerge from a long term vision. Trying to do something that big without a vision would likely result in a lot of people being opposed to it, or thinking it would cost "too much" money, or whatever...in other words, lots of valid opinions based on many individuals' "visions" of what it means. But we're talking about a whole country...and I don't believe Canada has a vision for the future.

I'll answer this way; Trudeau had visions, the repatriation of the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, big intrusive government to be all things to all people, to force Quebec's acceptance to be part of Canada, the Metric system, the NEP, PetroCanada. Mulroney had a vision of free trade, NAFTA, the Meech Lake Accord, the Charlottown Accord, force Quebec's acceptance as being part of Canada, just to name a few. They all mean something different to eveyone, but make your own choices as to which visions you like and don't. Not everyone shares the same vision, and what is good for some can be disastrous for others. For some reason I just can't grasp the importance, (or relevence) of a vision unless we are fighting a common foe. And not even everyone grasped that one when we were fighting WWII and German U-boats were cruising the St.Laurence.
 

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
3,686
39
48
BC
I'll answer this way; Trudeau had visions, the repatriation of the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, big intrusive government to be all things to all people, to force Quebec's acceptance to be part of Canada, the Metric system, the NEP, PetroCanada. Mulroney had a vision of free trade, NAFTA, the Meech Lake Accord, the Charlottown Accord, force Quebec's acceptance as being part of Canada, just to name a few. They all mean something different to eveyone, but make your own choices as to which visions you like and don't. Not everyone shares the same vision, and what is good for some can be disastrous for others. For some reason I just can't grasp the importance, (or relevence) of a vision unless we are fighting a common foe. And not even everyone grasped that one when we were fighting WWII and German U-boats were cruising the St.Laurence.

Well, even little kids have visions of the future...ever heard the question, "What would you like to be when you grow up?"

It's not that difficult to see how a vision for anything can be helpful...if you look at a country - and we've been referring to this country's rail system here and there - have a peek at Japan. Their "industrial revolution" after WWII came about not by accident. There were a few great business leaders, in conjunction with key government people - that formed a vision of Japan becoming a great manufacturing country. Two of their priorities within that vision were electronics and automobiles. They set about to learn how to make the best products in those fields, figured out where the markets would be, sorted out an entirely new approach to quality (with the help of an American), and set about becoming the world leader in those two fields.

But it didn't happen with a "business as usual" attitude...it happened because there was a vision.

So, I wonder what Canada wants to be "when it grows up?"
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Mountain Veiw County
Yep. But then gov't should get out and let business run as usual after its done its thing. It's done that before. BCR is virtually privately owned now.
Personally I don't give a damn who runs the show as long as it happens and I don't have to fly to the east coast on Air Crappy. :D

I'm sure you don't want to go back to the days when so many things were nationalized. There are things government should own and run and there are things they shouldn't. But your favourite airline suffers from problems that stem from being a Crown Corporation to being run by Americans, not a good mix, but that's an issue for another day. I belive the government has a ligitimate role in providing transport where it is needed and isn't viable for the private sector. I also don't believe in monopolies, but if that is the only option, the government, (us, or we) should own it. Other than that, let the free market reign.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
Well, even little kids have visions of the future...ever heard the question, "What would you like to be when you grow up?"

It's not that difficult to see how a vision for anything can be helpful...if you look at a country - and we've been referring to this country's rail system here and there - have a peek at Japan. Their "industrial revolution" after WWII came about not by accident. There were a few great business leaders, in conjunction with key government people - that formed a vision of Japan becoming a great manufacturing country. Two of their priorities within that vision were electronics and automobiles. They set about to learn how to make the best products in those fields, figured out where the markets would be, sorted out an entirely new approach to quality (with the help of an American), and set about becoming the world leader in those two fields.

But it didn't happen with a "business as usual" attitude...it happened because there was a vision.

So, I wonder what Canada wants to be "when it grows up?"

The reparation after the war was a magnanimous gesture, well, maybe not considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, depends on your point of view, but the idea was to put countries back together again. Japan was already a great manufacturing country, so was Germany, they both had very, very impressive products before and during the war, but most facilities were destroyed in the fight. The post war vision was to re build, it is only natural, and proper. There is nothing wrong with having a vision, it is just that you cannot expect everyone to hitch their wagon to your star. And I don't think it would be fair, or proper to coerce people to do so unwillingly. Canada's vision, as a country, seems to be to accept everyone as they are, not offend anyone, and be intolerant of intolerance, uless of course you are intolerant of the intolerant, sorry Orwellian Double Speak. But anyway, not a stellar vision, but one that seems to be in vogue right now. I wish Canada would just grow up, vision or not.
 

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
3,686
39
48
BC
The reparation after the war was a magnanimous gesture, well, maybe not considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, depends on your point of view, but the idea was to put countries back together again. Japan was already a great manufacturing country, so was Germany, they both had very, very impressive products before and during the war, but most facilities were destroyed in the fight. The post war vision was to re build, it is only natural, and proper.

No question they had to rebuild, but I think they went a bit beyond what they had before the war, wouldn't you agree?

There is nothing wrong with having a vision, it is just that you cannot expect everyone to hitch their wagon to your star. And I don't think it would be fair, or proper to coerce people to do so unwillingly.

Jeez, I guess I don't communicate too well anymore. Sorry about that. What I was getting at was not having someone hitch a wagon to my star or anyone else's...I was concerned that we (Canada) might not have any star to which the citizens' wagons could be hitched. Apologies for not making that one clear.

Canada's vision, as a country, seems to be to accept everyone as they are, not offend anyone, and be intolerant of intolerance, uless of course you are intolerant of the intolerant, sorry Orwellian Double Speak. But anyway, not a stellar vision, but one that seems to be in vogue right now.

OK, Bob. I understand that's how we see ourselves (more or less), and I agree with that part in front of Orwellian Double Speak. :lol:


I was thinking more along the lines of a "proactive" vision. Just to illustrate - and picking an example out of thin air - try this...We have a problem in Canada with uh, let's see...could by one of many, but let's go with energy. We're "energy hogs" and waste far too much of it. The answer? Go with alternative energy sources. Use less energy to accomplish results (be more efficient). Change some of the ways we conduct day to day activities. ...and the list would go on and on, right?

Now, how do you get an entire country to "spring to action" and start using less energy? One way is to enact legislation to do bits and pieces of the above. Problem is, legislation is created by politicians and by the time it gets through the process, it is like 'watered down whiskey.' Nature of the beast - the folks in Ottawa think they have to please all the people all the time, and of course, they end up with compromises all over the place. Initial problems solved? Nope. Might even have created more of them along the way! Of course, there are some efforts and programs in place that are moving in the right direction, and that's good.

But, how to really wrestle this beast to the ground (use less energy)? Well, I think more people would respond to the challenge if, first and foremost, they understood it better. You can't deal with something if you don't at least understand it. Sure, there is lots and lots and lots of information available out there, but is the general population jumping all over it? I don't think so. I mean, look at the wastes of energy in your own home (well, MINE, anyway) - little LED lights on the DVD player, the TV, the satellite/cable receiver, the microwave oven, etc., etc. Do we need them on all the time? No. Sure, it's a silly little example and of course LEDs are not a big energy hog, but if you added all of them up across the country, they must use SOME energy. So what?

Well now, let's imagine (yeah, it takes a wild imagination) that Canada - that is us, our elected politicians and the citizens - decided that we were going to become the most energy efficient country in the world. In fact, we would see ourselves as the WORLD LEADER in energy efficiency in some period of years down the road. I'm not talking about sitting around a table discussing it with other countries and making ourselves feel good that we're doing a lot of talking...no, I mean crafting an objective to become so good at energy management (by that, I mean the really big picture...the creation of it, the use of it, and so on) that we could and would actually lead the whole world in the cause. Just think of it..."CANADA - HELPING THE WORLD, ENERGETICALLY!" (Yeah, well, it's one slogan)

To get there, it would require a lot of creativity, guts, determination, risk-taking, and more. It would require a collective effort - all levels of government, corporations, and the people - to make this "dream come true." Companies will invest in things if they see a potential return on investment...They gotta' make money (or they cease to exist. Period.)

The government could play a few different roles – trumpeting the cause (getting out the right messages), smoothing out the red tape barriers, perhaps a few tax incentives, and more. Hell, I think the federal government should form an advisory body of real people who have a burning passion and knowledge of this (I would nominate Cliffy as the first one) who can help maintain a sense of realism to the whole effort. All citizens would play a role in the support of the efforts, but could and should stand to benefit personally – new jobs (created by the companies involved) would be one that comes to mind. (Unemployment is a bit of an issue most of the time, is it not?)

Actually, we have most of the ingredients right now. We have some innovative companies, we have a government, and we certainly have a number of concerned and knowledgeable citizens. So what's missing?

A plan to make it all work together. A means of bringing our great resources together. In short, a vision.

And that is a not-too-short but certainly only one illustration of what I'm referring to as a vision. Long-winded but I'm not smart enough to boil it down any further than that...and don't forget, the high-speed rail system might end up right in this "energy strategy" as the most energy-efficient way to move people and goods across the country. Maybe. I don't know - maybe it's part of the "Transportation Vision"...:lol:

I wish Canada would just grow up, vision or not.

It could happen sooner with a vision.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Mountain Veiw County
No question they had to rebuild, but I think they went a bit beyond what they had before the war, wouldn't you agree?

There is no doubt about that, so did everone else. But do you realise that it was Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbour that got the US involved in the war? The US had no stomach for another war in Europe. Had Japan waited another year, they would only have needed to ally with Germany and we would be under a very differnt system of governance, NAZI's in Europe and Imperial Japan in the Pacific. It took the allied efforts of Canada, Australia, Britain, China, the US, the USSR, as well the French and other resistance fighters, (apologies to others I missed) to vanquish two tiny countries who were powerful and driven beyond anyone's imagination at the time.

Jeez, I guess I don't communicate too well anymore. Sorry about that. What I was getting at was not having someone hitch a wagon to my star or anyone else's...I was concerned that we (Canada) might not have any star to which the citizens' wagons could be hitched. Apologies for not making that one clear.

You can make the star, or point it out, not everyone is going to hitch their wagon to it, is what I'm saying. There aren't enough people intersted in yours, or mine for that matter. But there are visions citizens have grabbed on to that I find terribly troubling, but aren't the focus of this thread. Not where I want Canada to go.

I was thinking more along the lines of a "proactive" vision. Just to illustrate - and picking an example out of thin air - try this...We have a problem in Canada with uh, let's see...could by one of many, but let's go with energy. We're "energy hogs" and waste far too much of it. The answer? Go with alternative energy sources. Use less energy to accomplish results (be more efficient). Change some of the ways we conduct day to day activities. ...and the list would go on and on, right?

Now, how do you get an entire country to "spring to action" and start using less energy? One way is to enact legislation to do bits and pieces of the above. Problem is, legislation is created by politicians and by the time it gets through the process, it is like 'watered down whiskey.' Nature of the beast - the folks in Ottawa think they have to please all the people all the time, and of course, they end up with compromises all over the place. Initial problems solved? Nope. Might even have created more of them along the way! Of course, there are some efforts and programs in place that are moving in the right direction, and that's good.

You are an idealogue, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. But I have a problem when people are legislated to bow to the wishes of the party, or those who lobby it, even if it is watered down whiskey. And taxation is the tool of social engineers. Personally, I use less, recycle more, because it saves me money. It might be just me, but economics trumps coersion. I do my thing for the environment, but I'll burn plastics in my burning barrel if I feel I'm being coerced, just out of spite. I'm not a particularly nice fellow.:cool:
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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The problem with rail is that it follows a fixed route. With highways, vehciles can move from anywhere to anywhere. With air travel, the airlines can change origin and destination points easily.

With rail, you can't.
Geee. You think that can't be worked around? You want to go from Calgary to Edmonton. You get friend, cabby, or whomever to drop you off and climb aboard. In Edmonton you get off and find transportation to where it is specifically you want to go. Why would you decide half way to Edmonton you wanted to really end up in Moosejaw? And what airline would let you do that, anyway? Airlines don't like changing destinations part ways through a flight either.
 
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AnnaG

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Well, let's see...the piggyback container truck thing seems to work pretty well for cargo.

In terms of passengers, if there was a main hi-speed line, the smaller centres could easily offer a decent bus service or rental cars, which would work for both domestic visitors and tourists.
Most places have a number of bus services that tote passengers to and from airports, besides the cabs, regular buses, etc. Even the two pint-sized towns around here have an airport service.
 

AnnaG

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You didn't read what I wrote, or get my meaning. I meant it will be the truckers, or other workers , (I wrote 40 years on the road), 50 and up that'll be kicking horse turds down the road. If you lose your job much later than that you're pretty much screwed. Employers want young bucks who'll work longer hours for lower wages, and are more than a few lunch breaks away from retirement. I don't know too many folks who've change careers 5 times, jobs maybe. I've had many of them, but generally in the same field or occupation, but then again I'm pretty resiliant, Cape Breton, for example is entirely populated by folks who aren't as much so.
Doesn't seniority count in the trucking industry? The old geezers are usually the ones with a lot of seniority and know the biz inside and out. They tend not to like to learn new stuff anyway. A decent company would lay off the ones with lowest senority and they're usually young enough to learn new stuff anyway.

But, don't bother to find different ways of skinning the cat and mumble about stuff being too hard to make an effort over. Just let it sit there and rot.

Maybe it was job changes, I can't remember.
 

AnnaG

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I'll answer this way; Trudeau had visions, the repatriation of the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, big intrusive government to be all things to all people, to force Quebec's acceptance to be part of Canada, the Metric system, the NEP, PetroCanada. Mulroney had a vision of free trade, NAFTA, the Meech Lake Accord, the Charlottown Accord, force Quebec's acceptance as being part of Canada, just to name a few. They all mean something different to eveyone, but make your own choices as to which visions you like and don't. Not everyone shares the same vision, and what is good for some can be disastrous for others. For some reason I just can't grasp the importance, (or relevence) of a vision unless we are fighting a common foe. And not even everyone grasped that one when we were fighting WWII and German U-boats were cruising the St.Laurence.
A vision would be a start in keeping Canada from sliding into the nether regions of obscurity. We would just exist. I'd prefer to flourish, myself, especially with the massive amount of potential Canada has.
But maybe we shouldn't take any chances and just be another country riding along on the coattails of those countries that actually do stuff and supply them with oil and wood and whatever else we have.
 

AnnaG

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Well, the only space I'm wasting is on your computer screen, (virtual space),
.... and CanCon space.
and you took the time to respond so you wasted it yourself, you bit ;-).
I'd say he was probably trying to find out what your point was. As it turned out you didn't have a point; at least one not worth pursuing.
To tell the truth, I forgot what we were talking about :scratch:.
Apparently, it doesn't matter.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Well, even little kids have visions of the future...ever heard the question, "What would you like to be when you grow up?"

It's not that difficult to see how a vision for anything can be helpful...if you look at a country - and we've been referring to this country's rail system here and there - have a peek at Japan. Their "industrial revolution" after WWII came about not by accident. There were a few great business leaders, in conjunction with key government people - that formed a vision of Japan becoming a great manufacturing country. Two of their priorities within that vision were electronics and automobiles. They set about to learn how to make the best products in those fields, figured out where the markets would be, sorted out an entirely new approach to quality (with the help of an American), and set about becoming the world leader in those two fields.

But it didn't happen with a "business as usual" attitude...it happened because there was a vision.

So, I wonder what Canada wants to be "when it grows up?"
The biggest consumer country on the planet maybe? At least that's what it looks like to me. Even the States seems to have the vision that it should be world cop and economic engine.
 

AnnaG

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I'm sure you don't want to go back to the days when so many things were nationalized. There are things government should own and run and there are things they shouldn't. But your favourite airline suffers from problems that stem from being a Crown Corporation to being run by Americans, not a good mix, but that's an issue for another day. I belive the government has a ligitimate role in providing transport where it is needed and isn't viable for the private sector. I also don't believe in monopolies, but if that is the only option, the government, (us, or we) should own it. Other than that, let the free market reign.
Imagine how many tickets from different companies you'd have to have to ride on all the intercity speedyrail lines to get across the country. Oh, neato, oh, joy. Free reign? There's another joy. How much would you like to be gouged? At minimum I'd like some government regulation on private companies.
 

AnnaG

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The reparation after the war was a magnanimous gesture, well, maybe not considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, depends on your point of view, but the idea was to put countries back together again. Japan was already a great manufacturing country, so was Germany, they both had very, very impressive products before and during the war, but most facilities were destroyed in the fight. The post war vision was to re build, it is only natural, and proper. There is nothing wrong with having a vision, it is just that you cannot expect everyone to hitch their wagon to your star. And I don't think it would be fair, or proper to coerce people to do so unwillingly. Canada's vision, as a country, seems to be to accept everyone as they are, not offend anyone, and be intolerant of intolerance, uless of course you are intolerant of the intolerant, sorry Orwellian Double Speak. But anyway, not a stellar vision, but one that seems to be in vogue right now. I wish Canada would just grow up, vision or not.
Oh, great. So Canada's vision is to be nice. Well, whoop de doo. Nice and a twonie will get you a cuppa mud and maybe a smile but you'd still only be friendly and tolerant and handing out your stuff and paying others for the finished product. We'd just be one big tourist attraction. IMO, that's hardly a worthwhile vision. It's what the Dippers seem to have wanted for BC. Dump the forestry and mining industries and put everyone to working for the gov't or making minimum wage in service industry.
 

AnnaG

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Well now, let's imagine (yeah, it takes a wild imagination) that Canada - that is us, our elected politicians and the citizens - decided that we were going to become the most energy efficient country in the world. In fact, we would see ourselves as the WORLD LEADER in energy efficiency in some period of years down the road. I'm not talking about sitting around a table discussing it with other countries and making ourselves feel good that we're doing a lot of talking...no, I mean crafting an objective to become so good at energy management (by that, I mean the really big picture...the creation of it, the use of it, and so on) that we could and would actually lead the whole world in the cause. Just think of it..."CANADA - HELPING THE WORLD, ENERGETICALLY!" (Yeah, well, it's one slogan)

To get there, it would require a lot of creativity, guts, determination, risk-taking, and more. It would require a collective effort - all levels of government, corporations, and the people - to make this "dream come true." Companies will invest in things if they see a potential return on investment...They gotta' make money (or they cease to exist. Period.)

The government could play a few different roles – trumpeting the cause (getting out the right messages), smoothing out the red tape barriers, perhaps a few tax incentives, and more. Hell, I think the federal government should form an advisory body of real people who have a burning passion and knowledge of this (I would nominate Cliffy as the first one) who can help maintain a sense of realism to the whole effort. All citizens would play a role in the support of the efforts, but could and should stand to benefit personally – new jobs (created by the companies involved) would be one that comes to mind. (Unemployment is a bit of an issue most of the time, is it not?)

Actually, we have most of the ingredients right now. We have some innovative companies, we have a government, and we certainly have a number of concerned and knowledgeable citizens. So what's missing?

A plan to make it all work together. A means of bringing our great resources together. In short, a vision.

And that is a not-too-short but certainly only one illustration of what I'm referring to as a vision. Long-winded but I'm not smart enough to boil it down any further than that...and don't forget, the high-speed rail system might end up right in this "energy strategy" as the most energy-efficient way to move people and goods across the country. Maybe. I don't know - maybe it's part of the "Transportation Vision"...:lol:



It could happen sooner with a vision.
Well, long-winded or not, I think it's a great example of something better than sitting on our butts consuming stuff and being the friendly neighbor to the rest of the world.