Sharia Judge Says It Is OK for Husbands to Slap spendthrift Wives.

[SirJosephPorter]

I'd imagine atheists are no different than anyone else except they don't blame some religion or fictitious being for their actions.

That is precisely the point, Gilbert. A Christian or a Muslim who wants to beat his wife will find plenty of justification in Bible or Koran (one prominent Southern Baptist scholar has claimed that wife battering occurs as a result of wife not being submissive enough to her husband). His religion tells him that his wife is inferior to him, that she must obey him. It is only one easy step from that to justify violence against her (she didn’t obey him, she was impertinent etc.).

Now an Atheist may beat his wife (though as I said, I think the incidence is probably much lower than among religious folk). However, where is he going to find justification for his action? He already thinks that Bible or Koran are nonsense books. So who is going to tell him that what he is doing is the right thing to do, that the highest power in the universe supports him?

A religious man has plenty of support structure which will enforce his views of women, an Atheist doesn’t have any. On this basis alone I would think that an Atheist would be less prone to violence against women.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re #94.

Being cruel and heartless to a totally defenseless group of people will inevitably lead to the same insensitive cruel and heartless treatment of the next available defenseless group. Or the next after that. And the one after that.

When there is no higher moral authority, anything goes.

Personal convenience is paramount.

Sorry, Yukon, that is a phony argument, abortion has nothing to do with wife battering. You are talking apples and oranges here.

 

[TenPenny]

However, if one is insensitive and cruel enough to kill a seven month old fetus, he/she would be - logically - cruel enough to kill a baby that survived abortion. No???
Just ask the Messiah, Hussain Obama.

Here we go, off into the realm of pure and utter stupidity.

 

[L Gilbert]

L Gilbert you are under the totally false impression that believing in a higher authority is mutually exclusive with your reckless, rank life.

Not at all!!!

I can be just as rank as you, anytime I want!

Reckless? Rank? lmao Ah so you are claiming to be some sort of expert on my life? You haven't got a clue, you poor, pathetic, little man. lol

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Here we go, off into the realm of pure and utter stupidity.

Tenpenny, Yukon usually brings the discussion on to the topic of abortion, no matter what the subject. Now what possible connection can there be between abortion and wife beating? But evidently he sees one.

 

[YukonJack]

Quoting SirJosephPorter:

"Really Yukon. Do you have any studies to back up what you say, or are you just blowing off steam against Atheists?"

SirJosephPorter, is there ANY of your posts that is NOT blowing off steam against anyone who happens to believe in SOMETHING? Unlike you, who believes in nothing?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Quoting SirJosephPorter:

"Really Yukon. Do you have any studies to back up what you say, or are you just blowing off steam against Atheists?"

SirJosephPorter, is there ANY of your posts that is NOT blowing off steam against anyone who happens to believe in SOMETHING? Unlike you, who believes in nothing?

So you don’t have any studies to back up what you say, I see. I thought as much.

 

[Amatullaah]

I just bought one from a second hand store a week ago. Haven't started it yet but will probably in the next couple of days. I am intersted to see what it really does say.

Hazmart, what translation did you get? Also, you can always check out the tafsir (exegesis of the Qur'an) of a verse you don't quite understand, or to a verse of which you would like a comprehensive explanation. There are several exegeses out there, most done by the classical scholars of Islam. There are a few Qur'anic exegeses available online, namely that of Ibn Kathir, and Tahfim al-Qur'an by Sayyid Abul 'Ala Maududi. Ibn Kathir's work is generally the most well-regarded, although some may prefer another mufasir. At-Tabari's tafsir is also well-known, but I haven't seen an online version of it yet. You may have to find it at a bookshop.

 

[Hazmart]

Hazmart, what translation did you get? Also, you can always check out the tafsir (exegesis of the Qur'an) of a verse you don't quite understand, or to a verse of which you would like a comprehensive explanation. There are several exegeses out there, most done by the classical scholars of Islam. There are a few Qur'anic exegeses available online, namely that of Ibn Kathir, and Tahfim al-Qur'an by Sayyid Abul 'Ala Maududi. Ibn Kathir's work is generally the most well-regarded, although some may prefer another mufasir. At-Tabari's tafsir is also well-known, but I haven't seen an online version of it yet. You may have to find it at a bookshop.

Thanks for the advice, I will have to look which one I got when I get home. I will let you know!

 

[Walter]

Forty lashes for female journalist wearing trousers

July 15, 2009 12:00am
A HIGH profile Sudanese woman journalist is facing 40 lashes after being accused of wearing "indecent" clothes, with 10 women already whipped for similar offences against Islamic law.
Lubna Ahmed al-Hussein, who writes for the left-wing Al-Sahafa newspaper and works for the media department of the United Nations Mission in Sudan, was arrested in Khartoum last week and charged with dressing indecently.

Ms Hussein said she was at a restaurant on July 3 when police came in and ordered women wearing trousers to follow them to the police station.

"They took away me and 12 other young women, including southerners," she said, referring to women from Sudan's animist and Christian south where the Muslim north's Islamic or sharia law does not apply.

"Two days later, 10 of them were summoned to the police station in downtown Khartoum and given 10 lashes each," Ms Hussein said.

The remaining three women, including Ms Hussein, have been charged under Sudanese law with "committing an indecent act or one which violates public morality or wearing indecent clothes".

If convicted, they face a mandatory 40 lashes. Ms Hussein said she did not know when her case would be heard.

"I want people to know what happened," she said.

Unlike some countries in the region, particularly in the Gulf, women have a prominent place in Sudanese public life. Nevertheless, human rights organisations say that some laws discriminate against women.

 

[Machjo]

I think any behaviour which is compulsory and is different for men and women is oppressive. Even if some people do it willingly, the oppression comes from the people who are forced to do it; that they would be compelled if they chose otherwise makes it oppressive.

Niflmir, many times people (especially women) are conditioned, brainwashed into accepting the oppression willingly. That doesn’t mean that it is a desirable thing.

Women are particularly vulnerable to such conditioning, they have been brainwashed for thousands of years. Thus during the suffragette movement, many women argued passionately that women do not deserve the right to vote, that if women were given the right to vote it will mean the end of Western civilization as we know it.

So then how do you explain the case of a woman convert to Islam who is not married to or has any intentions of marrying any particular Muslim man, and neither of whose parents are Muslim, who'd received a secular education in Canada, and yet, simply based on a verse of the Islamic sacred texts, chooses to wear the veil? Who would have brainwashed her?

 

[Machjo]

I would like to point out too, SJP, that I have a few female Muslim friends, and we have discussed similar topics. They take great offense at any suggestion that they are 'forced' to wear the veil.

To be fair though, I am aware that there are women raised in Muslim households who are pressured into wearing the veil. We just have to be careful not to stereotype like you did though.

 

[Machjo]

That is precisely the point, Gilbert. A Christian or a Muslim who wants to beat his wife will find plenty of justification in Bible or Koran (one prominent Southern Baptist scholar has claimed that wife battering occurs as a result of wife not being submissive enough to her husband). His religion tells him that his wife is inferior to him, that she must obey him. It is only one easy step from that to justify violence against her (she didn’t obey him, she was impertinent etc.).

Now an Atheist may beat his wife (though as I said, I think the incidence is probably much lower than among religious folk). However, where is he going to find justification for his action? He already thinks that Bible or Koran are nonsense books. So who is going to tell him that what he is doing is the right thing to do, that the highest power in the universe supports him?

A religious man has plenty of support structure which will enforce his views of women, an Atheist doesn’t have any. On this basis alone I would think that an Atheist would be less prone to violence against women.

This is pure stereotyping.

 

[Machjo]

Hazmart, what translation did you get? Also, you can always check out the tafsir (exegesis of the Qur'an) of a verse you don't quite understand, or to a verse of which you would like a comprehensive explanation. There are several exegeses out there, most done by the classical scholars of Islam. There are a few Qur'anic exegeses available online, namely that of Ibn Kathir, and Tahfim al-Qur'an by Sayyid Abul 'Ala Maududi. Ibn Kathir's work is generally the most well-regarded, although some may prefer another mufasir. At-Tabari's tafsir is also well-known, but I haven't seen an online version of it yet. You may have to find it at a bookshop.

I think this is the biggest problem in any religion. It was the Jewish scholars that opposed Jesus, and the Christian scholars who were most opposed to Muhammad. I remember reading a hadith warning against a future day when Muslim scholars would likewise plagued. I'll try ot find that Hadith in the next few days.

My advice, read the Qur'an and Ahadith for yourself, and understand them with your own mind, not according to how some scholar understands it. Remember, scholars are not infallible nor divine. They're humans just like us. In the past, formal education had nothing to do with who recognized divine truth and who didn't; the same applies today.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

So then how do you explain the case of a woman convert to Islam who is not married to or has any intentions of marrying any particular Muslim man, and neither of whose parents are Muslim, who'd received a secular education in Canada, and yet, simply based on a verse of the Islamic sacred texts, chooses to wear the veil? Who would have brainwashed her?

Machjo, I did not say that individuals are brainwashed in each and every instance, but they are brain washed many times.

The instances you mention are real enough, and they represent weak, deeply troubled women with low self esteem. A woman who does that is afraid to exist independently in the Western society (where along with rights, also come responsibilities). She is most at home when Patriarchs of the religion are telling her what to do.

Unquestioned obedience to authority has certain attraction to weak minded individuals. Rather than get an education, get a job, earn a living, live independently on her own (as Western society expects her to do), such a woman finds it much easier if a stern, bearded Mullah or Ayatollah is telling her how she should live in every aspect of her life.

To some extent we see that kind of behavior among Christian Fundamentalists as well. Fundamentalists lay great emphasis on strict obedience to authority. Some people find that attractive.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I would like to point out too, SJP, that I have a few female Muslim friends, and we have discussed similar topics. They take great offense at any suggestion that they are 'forced' to wear the veil.

To be fair though, I am aware that there are women raised in Muslim households who are pressured into wearing the veil. We just have to be careful not to stereotype like you did though.

I did not say they were forced to wear veils, Machjo, I said they were brainwashed in to wearing veils. And of course they would take offense to that, who is going to admit that they have been the subject of brainwashing?

But women in the Islamic society are brainwashed from birth to accept their inferior station in the society. So wearing a veil comes naturally to them. Indeed, it wouldn’t surprise me if they look upon women who don’t wear veils as prostitutes.

To be fair though, I am aware that there are women raised in Muslim households who are pressured into wearing the veil.

Again, it isn’t a question of pressuring, it is a question of brainwashing. Many times the women voluntarily wear the veil, that is how they have been conditioned from the birth.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

This is pure stereotyping.

Not at all, Machjo, I am stating facts. An Atheist who beats his wife has no supporting structure telling him that he is doing the right thing. A Christian or a Muslim who beats his wife usually has a strong, solid structure (in the form of his religion) telling him that he has the right to beat his wife.

Islam is particularly bad in this respect, Koran itself says that a man is permitted to beat his wife. On this most Islamic scholars agree, the only disagreement is what implement a husband may use (a stick, a belt, a strap etc.).

 

[In Between Man]

Not at all, Machjo, I am stating facts. An Atheist who beats his wife has no supporting structure telling him that he is doing the right thing. A Christian or a Muslim who beats his wife usually has a strong, solid structure (in the form of his religion) telling him that he has the right to beat his wife.

You show me where the bible says that. Not the Quran.

Islam is particularly bad in this respect, Koran itself says that a man is permitted to beat his wife. On this most Islamic scholars agree, the only disagreement is what implement a husband may use (a stick, a belt, a strap etc.).

Sounds like a flawed religion to me.

 

[Cliffy]

You show me where the bible says that. Not the Quran.

Sounds like a flawed religion to me.

All religion is flawed.

 

[petros]

You show me where the bible says that. Not the Quran.

Is the list of female popes and priests too long to post?

Genesis 2, God says that it is not good that man should be alone. So God made a woman as a "helper suitable for him."

Help do what? The dish? It didn't become dishes until Eve came along.