Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.

[einmensch]

Hi Trex--perhaps cut and paste helps when he swears ,"I did not have sex with that woman" and the investigators publish an article stating that Monica's blue dress had Willies DNA semen. Truth is not propaganda and if it is let there be lots.

 

[L Gilbert]

Truth is as much a tool of propaganda as it is a tool of just plain old information.

 

[tracy]

The problem I have is people seem to see it as a black and white issue. One side is evil, one is good. I don't see many disputes that way, and certainly not this one.

 

[einmensch]

If truth is propaganda --then let's have it all

• Dissemination of ideas and information for the purpose of inducing or intensifying specific attitudes and actions. Because propaganda is frequently accompanied by distortions of fact and by appeals to passion and prejudice, it is often thought to be invariably false or misleading.

 

[L Gilbert]

The problem I have is people seem to see it as a black and white issue. One side is evil, one is good. I don't see many disputes that way, and certainly not this one.

Bipolarity is popular. One might even call it faddish.

 

[earth_as_one]

Truths can be propaganda, if they are half truths or selective truths for the purpose of maipulating opinions.

Sure I do cut and pastes... to back up my points. I could just post a link, but usually I paste at least the part that backs up my post. You don't have to read my cut and pastes if you don't want. That's why they are quoted, so they are easy to skip. But if you doubt what I say, then read the cut and past and check the source. I often quote objective sources or the Israeli news.

I see civilians on both sides of this conflict as victims. For the Israelis, they have to run to a shelter regularly. After the all clear, they have to clean up a small mess. Rarely is anyone killed by a rocket fired from Gaza. Its been awhile since the last Palestinian suicide bomber. (That could change in the near future.) Both suicide bombers and rockets against civilians are war crimes. But what are the relative numbers compared to Israel's actions against Palestinians???

This is an ethnic cleansing war. As the world's attention is focused on Gaza, Israel continues to seize more land in the West Bank. That activity is one root cause of the violence.

Preventing humanitarian food and medical aid from reaching starving people is an obvious war crime. So is blasting your way into a densely populated urban area and giving soldiers orders to shoot anything that moves.

Israeli soldiers recall Gaza attack orders - Times Online

I don't think it necessary to charge people with war crimes to be able to claim war crimes were committed. Just like its not necessary to charge people with bank robberies to be able to claim crimes were committed.

Its obvious (to me) our news is biased in favor of Israel and political leaders support Israel's war crimes. I have a problem with this. Our news should report the facts, interview people on all sides and let us make up our own minds based on objective facts. Politicians should be well informed and free from outside influence. Supporting Israel's war crimes (starving people and deliberately attacking civilian/UN/humanitarian targets, hospitals and ambulances are war crimes) is bad for Canada and Canadians.

Canada is loosing its reputation for being fair and humane. I travel a fair bit and other nations now see Canada as too closely aligned with the US and Israel. Until recently I could wear a Canadian flag when traveling abroad. But with each Canadian supported Israeli atrocity our flag becomes more and more like the American flag or an Israeli Star of David. I have a problem this also. Do we really want to be percieved the same way as Americans or Israelis by Arabs and Muslims? All the good will Canada has generated from international aid and peacekeeping is being eroded, and yes I have a problem with that.

I have strong opinions regarding this conflict obviously. But I don't try to deliberately mislead or tell people what to think. I try to post what isn't being reported in our news and ask that you think for yourself.

Canadians have a right to know more than the half truths reported by our media, and know what it is exactly that our leaders support.

If current trends continue, I'm going to have start passing myself off as a New Zealander... and that also bothers me.

 

[einmensch]

earth as one --quote including spelling error-- "Truths can be propaganda, if they are half truths or selective truths for the purpose of maipulating opinions"

Dear earth - half truths are lies--selective truths are to manipulate

The soldier was killed Tuesday on Israel's frontier with the Gaza Strip by a roadside bomb planted on the Gaza side and set off by remote control, the military said. Three other soldiers patrolling the border were injured--
--so Israel declares a cease fire but continues to shell from ships
-Israeli soldiers were on Gaza soil-

 

[tracy]

" Canada is loosing its reputation for being fair and humane. I travel a fair bit and other nations now see Canada as too closely aligned with the US and Israel. "

It's funny cause when I travel, seldom do people even know what Canada's policies are. They don't really care because Canada just isn't that important on the global scene. Our support or condemnation really means little to most countries since we don't have the money or the military might to back either up. It's not like Israel would change all its policies because Canada told it to.

 

[einmensch]

The point is Canada is kissing Israeli butts--Our good friends -Israel
Obviously Harper owes the Jewish lobby.

 

[tracy]

The Jewish lobby? How big is that in Canada exactly?

 

[Colpy]

The Jewish lobby? How big is that in Canada exactly?

That would be 394,000 Jews in Canada, or about 1.2%.:roll:

In the USA, about 2%.

World wide, less than 14 million.

 

[tracy]

That would be 394,000 Jews in Canada, or about 1.2%.:roll:
.

And assuming some of them have to be underage, the number of voters would be even smaller. Not exactly a powerful voter's block IMO, certainly not enough to have much control over the government.

 

[Zzarchov]

Canada is loosing its reputation for being fair and humane. I travel a fair bit and other nations now see Canada as too closely aligned with the US and Israel. Until recently I could wear a Canadian flag when traveling abroad. But with each Canadian supported Israeli atrocity our flag becomes more and more like the American flag or an Israeli Star of David. I have a problem this also. Do we really want to be percieved the same way as Americans or Israelis by Arabs and Muslims? All the good will Canada has generated from international aid and peacekeeping is being eroded, and yes I have a problem with that.

I would rather be percieved as an American or Israeli, and thus a democratic and free civilization with equal rights to women, freedom of religion and speech,

then percieved as a citizen of a nation that is dictatorial, with women as non-persons and no freedom of religion or speech in America or Israel or any other free nation.

As for goodwill from Peacekeeping, not in the places you peacekeep. Funny thing about driving around taking sides in wars is that people don't like it when you side against them and start shooting. Canada doesn't do peacekeeping, we fight wars with blue helmets on.

If current trends continue, I'm going to have start passing myself off as a New Zealander... and that also bothers me.

It bothers me too, if you can't stand behind your democracy because the majority don't agree with you, what makes you think New Zealand wants you to wear their flag and give them a bad name?

A patriot who thinks his nation is in the wrong doesn't run away and hide, he fights to change things in his nation.

 

[darkbeaver]

And assuming some of them have to be underage, the number of voters would be even smaller. Not exactly a powerful voter's block IMO, certainly not enough to have much control over the government.

Votes have nothing to do with the government just the party. Wealth and power govern your vote is cast in approval of that condition. IMO

 

[earth_as_one]

On November 4, 2008, Israel sent commandos into Gaza and killed six members of Hamas in violation of a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. Israel justified their actions with unsubstantiated claims that Hamas was building a tunnel into Israel for the purpose of abducting Israel soldiers.

But Israel never offered any proof to support their claims about the tunnel.

Also Israel carried out the raid the same day Americans elected Obama. A predictable big news day for the US and the world.

UN observers:

...IDF operation in the Gaza Strip and rocket firing at Israel: In the night of 4-5 November, six Palestinians were killed and seven others injured, including two civilians, in the first large-scale Israeli military operation in Gaza since the 19 June ceasefire. According to the IDF, during the Israeli military incursion into Gaza, the IDF destroyed a tunnel leading to the border between Gaza and Israel, which could have been utilized for military attacks on Israel.

On the eve of 4 November, an IDF reconnaissance unit entered Deir el-Balah in central Gaza Strip. Armed clashes broke out between Palestinian militants and Israeli forces. During the first clash, one Palestinian militant was killed and five others injured; four IDF soldiers were also injured. In addition, a Palestinian house was destroyed, and seven of its 23 inhabitants were detained, including several women, one of whom was injured. During the clashes, the IDF demolished green houses, a poultry farm, and water well. Another house was occupied and used as a military post. In retaliation, Palestinian militants fired rockets and mortars towards Israel—some of which landed inside Gaza; no Israeli casualties were reported. Israel fired a missile east of Khan Younis at a group of militants manning a rocket launcher, killing five Palestinians. The clashes continued until the Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza in the early morning hours of 5 November. Qassam fire from Gaza towards Israel continued on 5 November (beyond the reporting period).

OPT: Protection of civilians - OCHA Weekly report (29 Oct-4 Nov 2008) (6 November 2008)

Sounds like a deliberate Israeli ceasefire violation to me. But was it justified?

According to a recent Jimmy Carter interview, the tunnel existed but it was completely within Gaza's borders and was defensive in nature, not offensive:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]An Interview with Jimmy Carter [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]The Future of Gaza [/SIZE][/FONT]

....Well, I know what happened in this last ceasefire. I was the one that helped to orchestrate it...

...the agreement was that they would stop all attacks on each other, that Hamas would stop all the rockets and that Israel would open up the supply line going in to supply food and water and medicines and fuel to the one and a half million Palestinians. That was the agreement. Hamas kept their promise I would say 99 percent. Three months there was just one mortar round or rocket fire – no damage done. But Israel did not keep their promise on opening up their supply lines; they only increased to about twenty percent.

But still Hamas kept their promise until the fourth day of November, at which time Israel attacked Gaza militarily because they claimed that there was a tunnel being built. It turned out that the tunnel was completely within the walls of Gaza and there are probably a thousand other tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. But that was what precipitated the breakdown in the ceasefire....

Riz Khan: An Interview with Jimmy Carter

Also from Jimmy Carter:

An Unnecessary War
By Jimmy Carter
hursday, January 8, 2009

....We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted....

Jimmy Carter - An Unnecessary War - washingtonpost.com

If Carter is correct, then Israel never held up its side of the truce, they continued to use food as a weapon in violation of international law and their truce agreement with Hamas. Then Israel deliberately and violently broke their truce with Hamas on US election day.

When negotiators tried to get Hamas and Israel to return to the truce, Israel offered to stop attacking Hamas, but refused to stop using food and medicine as a weapon.

Carter's testimony means Israel's recent slaughter in Gaza was deliberate and planned. In other words a premeditated war crime.

I'm open to other explanations... Any Israel apologists care to respond to Carter's version of events?

 

[CDNBear]

I weep, truly I do. LOL...

 

[earth_as_one]

I would rather be percieved as an American or Israeli, and thus a democratic and free civilization with equal rights to women, freedom of religion and speech,

then percieved as a citizen of a nation that is dictatorial, with women as non-persons and no freedom of religion or speech in America or Israel or any other free nation....

You obviously don't know much about New Zealand...

Until recently Canadians were far safer than Americans traveling abroad. I'm not so sure that's true any more.

 

[earth_as_one]

That would be 394,000 Jews in Canada, or about 1.2%.:roll:

In the USA, about 2%.

World wide, less than 14 million.

The problem isn't Jews, or the Jewish Lobby. Its the Israeli Lobby. It has to do with power and influence, not numbers:

...[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]MR. KHAN: Sir, we had an e-mail that came in from a viewer by the name of Robert Barnes (sp) who wrote in saying: "I'm an American and do not support what our government has been doing. The attack on Gaza was genocide with the whole world watching. AIPAC controls our government, not the people of America. AIPAC has become the puppet of Israel." How confident are you that President Obama can overcome the power of the lobbyists? He's said he doesn't want lobbying influence. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]PRES. CARTER: Well, AIPAC has never claimed to be committed to peace. If you look up AIPAC on Google, AIPAC is committed to support the policies of the Israeli government and they've been very effective. And it's almost politically impossible for any member of the U.S. Congress to come out and publicly condemn Israel. They would have a difficult time getting re-elected in our country. But there is an emergence, in recent months – I'd say the last three or four years – of an increasing number of Jewish organizations within America who are for peace. And J Street is one small group, but there are a lot of others. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]When I wrote this other book about Palestine, "Peace, not Apartheid," I received the next month 6100 letters – an outpouring of letters about the book – and 71 percent were positive, for me. And a majority of those writers who identified themselves as Jewish also said good things about the book – it's time somebody wrote a book that tells both sides of the issue, otherwise, we'll never see peace for Israel, if only one side is presented in the United States. And as you know, there's a vociferous and intense debate that goes on in Jerusalem, which you never see that kind of debate go on, in the news media or in anything else, in the United States....[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]
Riz Khan: An Interview with Jimmy Carter

It would be also impossible for a Canadian politician to come out and statement against israel for the same reasons. The Israeli Lobby has also hijacked our political system...

 

[tracy]

Until recently Canadians were far safer than Americans traveling abroad. I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I heard this and actually believed it before I went abroad for the first time in the mid 90s. That experience makes me think this was urban legend. I've never seen any actual stats which support the claim. I never saw Americans getting their butts kicked by angry locals while Canadians were greeted with hugs and kisses.

 

[Colpy]

Please Earth As One; Think!

it's almost politically impossible for any member of the U.S. Congress to come out and publicly condemn Israel. They would have a difficult time getting re-elected in our country.

It's called DEMOCRACY! The PEOPLE of the USA support Israel.....it has nothing to do with lobbies, or PACs, or undue influence in gov't by anyone but the majority of the people.

Deal with it.