Sept. 11 was the day my religion was hijacked

[Goober]

What are you on about? Who is attempting to make the stat about fear or human emotion? That the number of hate crimes went up by so much lends evidence to what the author of the essay in the OP was talking about.

The line about lies, damned lies, and statistics is often only known partially by lay people. It has two meanings. Basically, someone can make a statistic for almost anything, and can use statistics to add strength to weak hypotheses. Second, some people will choose to ignore statistics that do not fit the model they have.

Sort of like this. You are disparaging against this statistic. All along, Muslims are victims of hate crimes in the tens. Then after 9/11 it jumps by a full order of magnitude to hundreds. It doesn't matter how many other groups are targeted and how often, because hate crimes have specific targets. A Jew and a Muslim as hate crime victims are mutually exclusive.

The change is significant.

I would also state that with those Stats the US Public did not go off the deep end with mass rioting in the streets - we have seen how easy that can happen in recent decades in the US - too often and for what - and billions in damages when you add it up along with people killed - I was attempting to show how much US society had changed in 60 years. To think that these would not increase after an event such as 911 is lying to oneself - the critical stats are how many, what types, people killed, were the Police actively investigating. Those are questions that also need to be answered.
In 1941/42 they were locking up Japanese, confiscating assets - there were attacks then - Hate crimes is the name now. Fear & anger was rampant –
Did that happen in the US after 911 – No – That in itself shows that the US population remembers what happened before ( 1941-42) and learned from it. Not all mind you but the substantial majority did.
What have the stats shown year to year since 911 - Has there been an increase / decrease – those are also questions that need to be addressed.

 

[Nuggler]

and yet, 10 years later, ALL Muslims are reminded, and blamed, for what a few demented nut cases did to america.

Wellllllllll, they could only get so many on the plane.8O Only so many boxcutters to go round.

 

[Tonington]

Any statistical model is fully dependent on the underlying assumptions,

There is no statistical model here...there is a statistic. Statistical models have assumptions like normal distributions, constant variance, and independent error terms. The number of hate crimes against Muslims is not modeled. In statistical terms, Muslim victims of hate crime are like the finding of a census. There is no sample. There is a population with known parameters.

Yes you will try to disparage by noting that the definition of a hate crime might have changed. Has it? If so, can you show that some groups are more sensitive to the change? In other words, why didn't other groups show similar changes?

You won't check, you're just slinging mud, in exactly the form of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" was conceived.

 

[TenPenny]

There is no statistical model here...there is a statistic.

I was going to point that out, but I figured that there was little point that it would be understood.

 

[Tonington]

I was going to point that out, but I figured that there was little point that it would be understood.

It probably will not. CM has rang off these same talking points before.

 

[JLM]

There is no statistical model here...there is a statistic. Statistical models have assumptions like normal distributions, constant variance, and independent error terms. The number of hate crimes against Muslims is not modeled. In statistical terms, Muslim victims of hate crime are like the finding of a census. There is no sample. There is a population with known parameters.

Yes you will try to disparage by noting that the definition of a hate crime might have changed. Has it? If so, can you show that some groups are more sensitive to the change? In other words, why didn't other groups show similar changes?

You won't check, you're just slinging mud, in exactly the form of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" was conceived.

I for one don't put a lot of stock in "hate crimes". Case in point - myself and a black guy get beat up by some white guy who hates us. I think the sentence for beating up the black guy should be exactly the same as the one for beating me up!

 

[captain morgan]

There is no statistical model here...there is a statistic. Statistical models have assumptions like normal distributions, constant variance, and independent error terms. The number of hate crimes against Muslims is not modeled. In statistical terms, Muslim victims of hate crime are like the finding of a census. There is no sample. There is a population with known parameters.

Yes you will try to disparage by noting that the definition of a hate crime might have changed. Has it? If so, can you show that some groups are more sensitive to the change? In other words, why didn't other groups show similar changes?

You won't check, you're just slinging mud, in exactly the form of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" was conceived.

I see... So, what you're saying is that there was a consensus that polled each and every Muslim in America and the 1600 was an accurate reflection of reality.

... And yes, if one is comparing effects over time, having a parallel and equal definition of 'hate crime' is essential.

 

[Tonington]

I for one don't put a lot of stock in "hate crimes". Case in point - myself and a black guy get beat up by some white guy who hates us. I think the sentence for beating up the black guy should be exactly the same as the one for beating me up!

That's not a hate crime. It's a hate crime if he beats up the black guy because he is black, not if he just hates him.

I see...

No you don't.

So, what you're saying is that there was a consensus that polled each and every Muslim in America and the 1600 was an accurate reflection of reality.

No...I'm saying that the FBI can count all of the prosecuted hate crimes. There is no model that predicted hate crimes.

 

[CDNBear]

No...I'm saying that the FBI can count all of the prosecuted hate crimes. There is no model that predicted hate crimes.

Prosecuted hate crimes? What was the conviction rate?

 

[Tonington]

Prosecuted hate crimes?

I have no idea how many accusations of hate crimes there were....The FBI is required by law to collate and publish stats on hate crimes.

 

[captain morgan]

No you don't.

Sez you

No...I'm saying that the FBI can count all of the prosecuted hate crimes. There is no model that predicted hate crimes.

The FBI can count?.. Even with mittens on?

I think that we'd all be interested in the link that confirms their innate counting abilities

 

[CDNBear]

I have no idea how many accusations of hate crimes there were....The FBI is required by law to collate and publish stats on hate crimes.

Convictions or just complaints?

It makes a huge difference.

And no, I'm not just trying to be difficult. I reread the article, before I asked. To make sure it wasn't already indicated.

Do you know where I can research those stats?

 

[Goober]

It probably will not. CM has rang off these same talking points before.

Some of us understand the stats - But asking how they were collected in not unreasonable - Were these just reported - then go on file with the FBI - what if the claim was unfounded - does the stat change - meaning is followup done. I do not know. i would hazard a guess that you may.

There is no statistical model here...there is a statistic. Statistical models have assumptions like normal distributions, constant variance, and independent error terms. The number of hate crimes against Muslims is not modeled. In statistical terms, Muslim victims of hate crime are like the finding of a census. There is no sample. There is a population with known parameters.

Yes you will try to disparage by noting that the definition of a hate crime might have changed. Has it? If so, can you show that some groups are more sensitive to the change? In other words, why didn't other groups show similar changes?

You won't check, you're just slinging mud, in exactly the form of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" was conceived.

I am sure the Govt would have put those stats into a model to base public reaction in the event of another attack - the where were they the highest - what age groups perpetrated these acts and on and on - types of crime - property to murder. The Govt runs scenarios all the time for different types of events. This is just one more where they will have data to use.

 

[JLM]

That's not a hate crime. It's a hate crime if he beats up the black guy because he is black, not if he just hates him.



.

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[CDNBear]

That makes absolutely no sense.

Actually it does. But if the assailant says "niggar' just once while laying a beating on the black dude. It's a hate crime. Even if he says it while beat you. Although your beating still wouldn't be a hate crime.

Which is my problem with hate crime laws.

Just beating someone, or being so irate as to do damage to anyones property, is a hate crime. No matter the 'race' of the victim.

 

[JLM]

Actually it does. But if the assailant says "niggar' just once while laying a beating on the black dude. It's a hate crime. Even if he says it while beat you. Although your beating still wouldn't be a hate crime.

Which is my problem with hate crime laws.

Just beating someone, or being so irate as to do damage to anyones property, is a hate crime. No matter the 'race' of the victim.

From what I could gather from Ton's post is it is a "hate" crime because the guy is black, whereas I'd prefer to think that the colour of the man - black, green or pink is immaterial as far as the seriousness of the crime is concerned.

 

[Goober]

From what I could gather from Ton's post is it is a "hate" crime because the guy is black, whereas I'd prefer to think that the colour of the man - black, green or pink is immaterial as far as the seriousness of the crime is concerned.

If you target a person because of race, creed, ethnic origins, sexual orientation then it is a hate crime - they were targeted for that sole reason - Hate -

 

[CDNBear]

From what I could gather from Ton's post is it is a "hate" crime because the guy is black, whereas I'd prefer to think that the colour of the man - black, green or pink is immaterial as far as the seriousness of the crime is concerned.

I do to.

But Ton was specific, if the Black man was beat up, simply because he was black. It's considered a hate crime.

But I agree with you. It should make the act, more abhorrent than any other assault.

Assault, is assault.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Hate crimes have really overshadowed the once more popular crime of passion.

 

[JLM]

If you target a person because of race, creed, ethnic origins, sexual orientation then it is a hate crime - they were targeted for that sole reason - Hate -

That can't always be ascertained with certainty. Maybe the guy beat him because he looked at his sister the wrong way.