Self-deception.

[china]

missile,

In China, one is very lucky just to have the 3 basic items mentioned

Every living person has the same basic needs no matter where they live
By the way ,what China is lucky (for past few years) , is to have the fastest growing economy in the world.

 

[china]

I think I'll just pass on you China.
I did try, I even thought there was a

Thank You Sal ,just don,t forget it.

 

[china]

duplicate

 

[china]

duplicate

 

[Curiosity]

Dear China

Belonging is a basic need of humanity - we learn and compare and improve and evolve through communication.

The basics are merely to keep us alive - without communication we are at the basic level of life - when we have the capability of being so much more.

We also have the choice of remaining at the basic level. But why would we want to?

Mankind is driven by exploration of self, others, their environment, and the unknowns.

 

[MikeyDB]

Curio

What drives that "exploration"?

It's fear my friend. From the primal instinct of survival to meeting the expectations of everyone around you whose opinion or regard or acceptance you crave. And why are human beings so afraid? Perhaps its because we're taught to fear our own existence and everything in it.... Perhaps it is because we're taught to fear death and spend so much time convincing ourselves' that we're ALIVE that the consequences of how we behave and how we treat each other fade into the 'noise' of life....

Is it self-interest that drives this urge this "need" to explore? Is it the belief that 'more' is the route to happiness and that by exploring our world with our personal self-interests finely attuned to "getting what I want"...that we make ourselves' vulnerable to having our appetites for more of everything turned against us?

Is it a feeling of incompleteteness, of inadequacy of alone-ness that focuses our self-needs into the spike that we're willing to drive through the heart of everyone else's freedom, of everyone else's and right to think and feel and believe as their heart and their mind tells them? Why is there so much enthusiasm for "more"....

Could it be because that's what our cultures and our societies tell us is the most important thing in life?

The reason why we can't "cure" pedophiles and a whole range of abberant human behaviors is because we don't understand our own appetites and the dynamics influences and motivations that drive us. It's easier to claim victimhood and declare non-responsibility for everything from how we behave to how we are "forced" to treat each other. If we began to understand why we think and feel the way we do, we'd have to face our own culpability in creating the world and societies that are so dysfunctional and so fraught with inhumanity and cruelty. We find excuses disguised as "reason".... There's the fat gene...something that's just shown up in the 19th century but lain dormant for all of human history...or the alcohol gene, or the YY chromosome anomaly...or any convenient excuse that allows us to shirk responsibility.....

For all our exploring Curio what we eventually find is that we're right back where we started from...

Societies that should have learned other ways of dealing with injustice and imbalance turn to war and conflict time and time again. Not because that's the "nature" of life but that human beings are so confused and misled and afraid.

Humanity was a great evolutionary exercise, it's too bad the potential was wasted.

 

[Curiosity]

Mikey

Fear?

I thought fear was the child of ignorance and without understanding others - other societies, other ways of life, other races, all the traits by which we have become separated through environment, geography and progress, then of course fear would raise its ugly head.

In knowing others, in communicating, we learn cooperation and comparison, thus removing fear.

You speak as if our evolution is over in this century - when we have only begun.... while many still
live as their ancestors did, yet others are exploring space and most basic of all, we still kill.

 

[Twila]

Words are a primitive way of communicating

How do you mean primitive? I'd say grunting and groaning are primitive ways of communicating...drawing on caves wall is primitive way of communicating...but words can be sophisticated...they can draw a picture in the mind....their only limitation is in the user

 

[Northboy]

Curio

What drives that "exploration"?

It's fear my friend. From the primal instinct of survival to meeting the expectations of everyone around you whose opinion or regard or acceptance you crave. And why are human beings so afraid? Perhaps its because we're taught to fear our own existence and everything in it.... Perhaps it is because we're taught to fear death and spend so much time convincing ourselves' that we're ALIVE that the consequences of how we behave and how we treat each other fade into the 'noise' of life....

Is it self-interest that drives this urge this "need" to explore? Is it the belief that 'more' is the route to happiness and that by exploring our world with our personal self-interests finely attuned to "getting what I want"...that we make ourselves' vulnerable to having our appetites for more of everything turned against us?

Is it a feeling of incompleteteness, of inadequacy of alone-ness that focuses our self-needs into the spike that we're willing to drive through the heart of everyone else's freedom, of everyone else's and right to think and feel and believe as their heart and their mind tells them? Why is there so much enthusiasm for "more"....

Could it be because that's what our cultures and our societies tell us is the most important thing in life?

The reason why we can't "cure" pedophiles and a whole range of abberant human behaviors is because we don't understand our own appetites and the dynamics influences and motivations that drive us. It's easier to claim victimhood and declare non-responsibility for everything from how we behave to how we are "forced" to treat each other. If we began to understand why we think and feel the way we do, we'd have to face our own culpability in creating the world and societies that are so dysfunctional and so fraught with inhumanity and cruelty. We find excuses disguised as "reason".... There's the fat gene...something that's just shown up in the 19th century but lain dormant for all of human history...or the alcohol gene, or the YY chromosome anomaly...or any convenient excuse that allows us to shirk responsibility.....

For all our exploring Curio what we eventually find is that we're right back where we started from...

Societies that should have learned other ways of dealing with injustice and imbalance turn to war and conflict time and time again. Not because that's the "nature" of life but that human beings are so confused and misled and afraid.

Humanity was a great evolutionary exercise, it's too bad the potential was wasted.

Hunamity is a great evolutionary exercise....

It just needs a keel on the boat, a point of reference to guide it through the coming storms...


I'll do my part....

 

[china]

Curiosity,

In addition to the basic essentials of staying alive, mankind needs communication, acceptance, belonging and the practice of exchange with others.

We communicate always with our surrounding ,though we might not be conscious of it. Babies inside a womb communicate with their mothers,though they can not speak.

Words are a primitive way of communicating and perhaps that's that's the reason for so many different interpretations of my original post (look at the Bible ,5 readers ,10 interpretations).Things are taken literally ,instead going beyond the word and grasping the meaning of the content ,the readers (most) concentrate on single words .Unfortunately words don't think for them self( neither does thought for that matter -but that could be a different thread) ,that requires some effort on the readers part
.Communication like breathing are performed constantly, though most of the time we are not aware of it .
Listening is also a part of communication but that requires an effort.The whole creation is shouting at us ,but we don't hear it ,we only talk about it (as if we knew It).

Acceptance and Belonging --Why would I worry about being accepted or belonging anywhere ?
I know who I am ,I respect others for whom they are , I help the less fortunate if they want or need to be helped , I do that not because "it makes me feel good" but because it is a right thing to do . Whether others accept me for what I am, it's meaningless , I will still have my breakfast this morning , I will still be packing, and I will still be moving to my new house in Qing Dao .

Belonging is a basic need of humanity - we learn and compare and improve and evolve through communication.

I belong where my responsibilities to myself and to others are, (though they change).

I,m improving myself by acting on my own responsibilities and by learning how to perform them 'better' the next time.
I've bin standing on my own two feet for a long time,so why would I want to compare myself to others?-that's beyond me.The point is .... one who is living doesn't need to ask how to live.

 

[china]

Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.

Many of you did not agree with me as to the accuracy of the above post ,so I will explain .
The three basic needs that we have "inherited" from our mothers womb ,remain the same -food clothing shelter. Obviously there are some other needs, but they differ with the individual(s) and you can "survive" without them .

Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times].[/FONT][/FONT]
I don't think I am wrong in saying that most of us are not completely happy just satisfying the basic essentials, we want more.Obviously there is nothing wrong with wanting things which probably can make life a little more "comfortable". So what's the point? ....The point is that the moment you start believing, start to convince yourself that you cant live , "function properly " without these 'Extras"-your self-deception is in a full swing.
That's all ,nothing fancy.

 

[darkbeaver]

Are not the necessitys of food and shelter(clothing) also self deception? Isn't it true that enlightenment and true awareness require no externals such as food and shelter? Isn't it true that any separation from the one is deception, including the illusion of self. Isn't spiritual selfrealization directly dependant on developed and refined powers of selfdeception? While selfdeception if practiced by the unaware at sleep individual is caustic and destructive isn't it also the only bridge between reality and our manufactured illusion of individuality? How can we approach the unknown without the magic of selfdeception?

 

[china]

Zan,
Love the hypnotic eyes .


China,

I find myself surprised at your initial assertion in your OP. I've read so many thought provoking posts from you delving into understanding the human psyche.... I believe that's what Maslow was referring to when he labeled the highest rung on the hierarchy of needs "self actualization" - and I'd have thought you would be well aware of that as you appear to spend a great deal of time and thought endeavoring to discuss the very issues associated with self-actualization. I'd also have thought that you of all people, would recognize the nurturance of said psyche as an actual need as well.

First ,thank you for your observations. I might not agree with everything you say, but these are your points of view and I respect them.
Regarding Maslow,I have to admit that I have never heard of him until his name appeared in one of the responses to my post.I have learned on the web that according to Maslow, the no 1 need (in order of importance) was oxygen , breathing . I must say Zan that that made me laugh .As far as I know ,we began to breath ,we develop a heart (which functions and circulates the blood) in our mothers womb .
In the womb ,we receive the three essentials mentioned in my original post-food ,clothing and shelter. In the "outside" world the 'needs remain the same in order to keep the organs functioning.

Food, clothing and shelter will assure a certain degree of physical well being, but I contend that without spiritual, mental or some sort of positive community/societal/familial influence, we would be less than animals. Even they display the meeting of such needs through their interactions - they play, express affection, protect, and bond. Since animals are generally not considered to be consumed with purposeless pursuits, I think we could look to them to demonstrate where the difference between need and want lie in this regard at least.

Food, clothing and shelter will assure a certain degree of physical well being,

A little more than that Zan ,it will keep you ALIVE in order that you can perform the other things which you have mentioned.

I think Maslow was onto something myself.

Yes Zan ,he proved that you can't live without breathing.
​

 

[Outta here]

lol China - glad you like my halloween costume -

re your reply, I still think this question can never be answered with a singular truth for everyone. It still comes down to how one defines survival, imo. I'd be curious to know what you thought of the rest of Maslow's rungs on the hierarchy though. I tend to agree with them, based on looking at how my own priorities shift depending on the circumstances in my life than anything else. When I was first introduced to Maslow, it was in a psych 101 course and I think now that I was much too young at the time to apply any real experiential thought to his concepts. Now I can, and it rings more true for me now than it did when it was 'just' an essay question on an exam.

Would you not agree that if the essentials for physical survival are well in place, it frees one up to self-examine more esoteric issues (which again, I contend are also necessary for some degree of quality within the existence one is trying to 'survive') ?

 

[china]

darkbeaver

Are not the necessitys of food and shelter(clothing) also self deception? Isn't it true that enlightenment and true awareness require no externals such as food and shelter? Isn't it true that any separation from the one is deception, including the illusion of self. Isn't spiritual selfrealization directly dependant on developed and refined powers of selfdeception? While selfdeception if practiced by the unaware at sleep individual is caustic and destructive isn't it also the only bridge between reality and our manufactured illusion of individuality? How can we approach the unknown without the magic of selfdeception?

Obviously you've bin there ,done that , clue us in .

 

[china]

Zen ,
Thanks for the fast answer, sorry couldn't write sooner.
My baby woke up ,had to do my "fatherly duty", put her back to sleep.

Would you not agree that if the essentials for physical survival are well in place, it frees one up to self-examine more esoteric issues(which again, I contend are also necessary for some degree of quality within the existence one is trying to 'survive') ?

Yes I would agree with you though there were ( and are ) exceptions ( look up 'sayings of dessert fathers' on the web)
Just an observation , if the 3 essential are easy to obtain in ones life, all the esoteric issues and degrees of quality become nothing more but illusion.

It's midnight in China, Good night Zan

 

[darkbeaver]

darkbeaver


Obviously you've bin there ,done that , clue us in .

I did pose questions illustrious China. Why are thou being testy and petty? It's not obvious from the questions I asked that I've done anything other than wonder at the way of things. :smile:

 

[china]

darkbeaver

I did pose questions illustrious China. Why are thou being testy and petty? It's not obvious from the questions I asked that I've done anything other than wonder at the way of things

.
Yes I also wonder when I read Thy posts hoping we will find a mutual point of understanding .
I love Thee ,as always.

 

[china]

As we go through life we are constantly noticing what attracts us and what we need to both survive and to be happy. These things range from the most basic needs such as food, water, safety and sleep, on to higher level needs such as love and a sense of belonging, and then others such as a sense of purpose and a desire to make the world a happier place.Whenever we think that any of these very important wants and needs in our life are threatened, we automatically react, usually unconsciously, to protect that which we feel is so vital to us.The truth is that usually we share most of the same needs and desires. But when we don't communicate them, we often don't work together to get them met, and we never find out that the other really does respect us and wants us to be happy. Somehow these needs, wants and desires get buried inside of us and we are only semi-conscious of them. We often don't articulate them to others when we feel they are threatened. Also, because of our upbringing, we are often afraid to admit many of our wants, needs and desires - we have seen them judged so heavily, we become more conscious of the needs we have that are feeling threatened, and we know that all needs longings and desires come from the heart. So we bravely start articulating them and find a way to get our mutual needs and desires met without having to resort to violence or verbal fighting.Though there are exceptions-you can find them in this forum.

 

[Curiosity]

China

Love, longing, desire, which you brush aside as unnecessary (or the beginning of self-deception) are the very reason our world has propagated.... yes you and I....

Without the needs beyond food and shelter (I negate clothing as that is shelter too), we would be animals, unevolved, digging for edibles regardless of their worth, dying of exposure to weather and death by others, and creating new lives as often as the urge presents.

Communication, acknowledgement of peer groups, cooperation, have given humanity a rise above the basic state into which we were first aware of other animal life.

If we were to conform to your vision of life necessities, I think you have carelessly omitted what has been the great dividing line of evolution: The ability to love and nurture and care about others beyond what we require to survive to the point of ensuring they have the same needs met.