Robert Latimer
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:-( I hope I never have to walk in any shoes like Robert Latimer's . I'm not sure what I'd do.
It would kill me to see my child suffer.
I know I couldn't put a child in a truck and gas him/her.
If I chose that route to "end suffering", I'd sit in the truck too, as I know I couldn't live with myself afterwards.
I know of severely retarded children who have been raised by their parents at home, and I would like to think I'd be one of those parents, but, who knows?
As stated, those would be horrible shoes to have to wear.
Now, I gotta stop thinking about this.
Woke up from a bad dream to read this bad dream.
Those of us who have normal kids really don't appreciate the luck we have.
It would kill me to see my child suffer.
I know I couldn't put a child in a truck and gas him/her.
If I chose that route to "end suffering", I'd sit in the truck too, as I know I couldn't live with myself afterwards.
I know of severely retarded children who have been raised by their parents at home, and I would like to think I'd be one of those parents, but, who knows?
As stated, those would be horrible shoes to have to wear.
Now, I gotta stop thinking about this.
Woke up from a bad dream to read this bad dream.
Those of us who have normal kids really don't appreciate the luck we have.
I'd be beating down my doctor's door everytime my child screamed in pain, demanding better pain management, I can tell you that much. I know I couldn't have killer her.
I'm not saying I'd be a perfect parent to a handicapped or disabled child either Nug. I'm betting I'd be calling for respite care on a regular basis. I'm blessed with two healthy kids who help run my household because their mom can't do it alone. They've done that for me since they were 3 or 4. To think of running the laundry and dishes and doing the cooking associated with an extra adult in the house, yet have no help, have to change the bedding, the diapers....
that's part of what bothered me about his decision.... I'd never be able to completely untangle MY exhaustion and desire to be free of the pain, from what was actually best for the child.
Right. I know nothing of such things.
I am sure you are more knowledgable about such things than I am.
Was her pain being dealt with? I don't know.
What I do know is that her father feels that killing her and spend ing time in prison was worth it to know that her pain is ended. Is he asking for some special treatment? Not that I know of.
Many people must be in similar circumstances and not make the same decision as Latimer. I am sure that many suffer. Would I want life like that? I would not. Society doesn't think like that. Individuals do, because society isn't an individual and cannot imagine the suffering. I really don't care that the law states Latimer must serve such and such a penalty. That is not up to me as an individual member of this society. I do have my own experiences and reason. My life is valualble to me insofar as I gain pleasure from living. To me suicide is one of many options. I don't have children so a choice such as the one Robert Latimer faced.
In Canada you can work with a doctor to decide the course of treatment for a brain dead, vegetative individual yes. You don't have to agree to feeding tubes. You don't have to agree to anything. You can simply let their life run its course. Or donate their organs. They are legally considered dead if they are brain dead. Tracy would probably know more than I do about the pain relief needs of brain dead or vegetative individuals, but, the last I knew they don't exhibit pain (what with being brain dead and all), but I don't know if there are pain impulses which would still be treated or not, but my suspicions say no.
There are a lot more options for bringing about the end of a life within our medical system than people seem to realize.
I guess having seen three palliative care deaths in the last five years kind of gives me a bit of a more intimate view of it.
I've worked with two basically brain dead but breathing babies we allowed to die. Both could breathe on their own, but they couldn't eat (Tracy Latimer could do both). Neither had any meaningful brain activity and would never be able to smile, laugh, recognize people, etc (Tracy Latimer could). We simply stopped feeding them with tubes. They died of dehydration a short time later (within a week or so). We did give them morphine. It was more for their parents' peace of mind than anything. There were nurses who thought it was immoral and they were not assigned to look after those babies. The parents were supported and both babies died while their mothers held them.
In my experience we usually err on the side of giving something for pain even if it isn't needed. We also take babies who are on ventillators off and allow them to die if their prognosis is poor and the parents agree. They are also given some sort of pain meds beforehand. Whenever possible, we have the parents hold the babies when they die. If the parents don't want to do it a nurse will always do it. Whatever the baby's cognitive abilities, I have never met a nurse who thought it was ok to let it die without being held and given some human contact.
I support those decisions. I generally wish more parents would decide to let their extremely ill babies pass away. But, I can't support killing someone who can breathe and eat and smile and laugh. That life isn't a good one IMO, but I don't think anyone has the right to kill because they don't think a life is a good one.
In my experience we usually err on the side of giving something for pain even if it isn't needed. We also take babies who are on ventillators off and allow them to die if their prognosis is poor and the parents agree. They are also given some sort of pain meds beforehand. Whenever possible, we have the parents hold the babies when they die. If the parents don't want to do it a nurse will always do it. Whatever the baby's cognitive abilities, I have never met a nurse who thought it was ok to let it die without being held and given some human contact.
I support those decisions. I generally wish more parents would decide to let their extremely ill babies pass away. But, I can't support killing someone who can breathe and eat and smile and laugh. That life isn't a good one IMO, but I don't think anyone has the right to kill because they don't think a life is a good one.
The only thing she was getting for pain was Tylenol, partly because her family refused a feeding tube, partly because they were concerned that pain meds could interfere with her anti-seizure meds. I can't imagine why no other pain meds were tried, but even if they weren't, the surgery itself would have dealt with the pain she was experiencing from her dislocated hip.
The only special treatment I see his supporters asking for is that they think the normal parole board rules shouldn't apply to him. They don't even think he should have to promise not to kill any other family members who are in distress before the parole board releases him. I support him being released even though I don't see him as the martyr some people do, but I don't think that small promise is too much to ask from him.
Tracy
Does that include Taliban Al Queada IRA ETA Red Brigade etc. etc. etc. or does it really mean that the promise of life regardless of the quality of life is more important?
This is a terribly difficult question and like homosexuality or any other question that demands we reference our own particular set of standards of morality ethics and beliefs finding consensus will be impossible.
Does that include Taliban Al Queada IRA ETA Red Brigade etc. etc. etc. or does it really mean that the promise of life regardless of the quality of life is more important?
This is a terribly difficult question and like homosexuality or any other question that demands we reference our own particular set of standards of morality ethics and beliefs finding consensus will be impossible.
I don't get to make decisions of when we go to war. I also don't see anyone advocating killing the Taliban as mercy killings.
I didn't get to decide the standards for mercy killings either. I just have to know what they are and work within the rules. If I don't, I'll risk jail too (3 nurses and a doc were charged with mercy killing not too long ago in New Orleans after the hurricane). It doesn't matter if I agree with the rules. It doesn't matter what I think they should be. What matters is what they ARE.
Quality of life is something that is taken into consideration when deciding to discontinue medical care. It can't be used as a justification to kill someone under our system though. There is a very clear line between stopping futile treatment and actively killing someone capable of living a long life without any medical interventions.
Tracy
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I admire your strength but he question of whether we can tolerate the abuse of women and support regimes predicated on many dubious tenets is really no different than making a decision about the quality of life for others. On one hand you suggest that the question of quality of life isn't something that factors into our decision to take life and yet the notion that feedom democracy and equality are factors that have a great deal of bearing on quality of life.
Could you help me to understand why the quality of life can be a factor when it comes to "freedom" "democracy" and "equality" and yet isn't a factor when we're considering the well-being of a pain-wracked little child?
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I admire your strength but he question of whether we can tolerate the abuse of women and support regimes predicated on many dubious tenets is really no different than making a decision about the quality of life for others. On one hand you suggest that the question of quality of life isn't something that factors into our decision to take life and yet the notion that feedom democracy and equality are factors that have a great deal of bearing on quality of life.
Could you help me to understand why the quality of life can be a factor when it comes to "freedom" "democracy" and "equality" and yet isn't a factor when we're considering the well-being of a pain-wracked little child?
Because quality of life isn't the only consideration. Liberating a country from an oppressive regime means war. It means sacrificing our men and women to fight theirs. It means committing massive resources. It means the possibility of killing the people we want to help and the possibility of losing no matter what we do.
The well being of a pain wracked child can be managed with things like medications and surgeries. It doesn't cause death and destruction. It doesn't require killing. Her quality of life could have been helped with different meds, a feeding tube, a surgery to fix her hip. This child was not in constant pain according to her own mother's statements btw if that'
s truly the issue, though I don't think it is for most people. I think for most people it's that she was retarded.
Tracy, I don't want to belittle the terrific job you do. Indeed, my first daughter in part owes her life to dedicated people as yourself. The thing is, it is a task of your profession to remain emotionally distant from your charges. The life of a parent is complicated by love. Compassion, ethics, morals and Law are a terribly tough mat to untangle. Though Tracy Latimer's pain may have been intermittent, that time she was in pain must have been an eternity to both her and her parents. We can't begin to imagine the knot of mixed feelings - guilt and joy, angst and relief - that tore and still tears through the Latimer family. Robert's own wife - Tracy's mother - hasn't found him guilty of any misdeed to Tracy. What gives us the right to judge?
Woof!
Woof!
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We seem to need a refined scale to measure the quality of life. I can't accept that this little girl had anything but a dismal "quality of life" and was kept alive to enhance our quality of life, not hers.
The same judgment that's made when we decide to free an oppressed people and accept the terrible costs of that decision. Can we know how Tracy felt about this option (with sufficent clarity of mind to differentiate and weigh alternatives?) or that people who will die for our belief in their freedom at our hands might feel?
I agree with the majority of people in this thread. A man shouldn't have to spend his life behind bars for killing a girl. The parole board should let this man out of prison.
Ah justice, perhaps we could dispence with due course of same in this instance and remove what offends immeadiatly, like a bug zapper.
That's really the issue, isn't it?
"If you're searching for a silent sky, you won't find it here...."