Rights American style!

[skookumchuck]

Yep, when the average hunter sees his 06 against those it's pretty sobering. I know that i am too damn old to think about messing with big bores.
Both .577 and the .600 nitro (double bores) are over 100 years old. The .700 is more recent, late 80's i think. H&H were the primary builders.
The 460 Weatherby Magnum produces more energy because of it's velocity but does not have the bullet weight to back it up like the bigger bores.

 

[JLM]

How does the officer know what the intent of the person carrying the gun is?
This is neither the fault of the individual or the cop it comes down to the folks
who made the law and have not made changes to fit into the twenty first
century.
We ask our police to do a job to protect the public and when they conduct
themselves properly we get a soapbox version of the people versus the state.
On the other hand we are faced with a society where people have an eroding
confidence in the police forces from allowing less than competent people to
join the forces in recent years.
I love the comment about better not catch him jaywalking. It demonstrates just
how vengeful the police authorities have become. Instead of examining how they
might avoid or handle a similar situation differently, instead they will just get even.
and We want better relations with the institutions that govern us and influence
our lives, good luck with that.

In that case that cop would be fully justified charging that idiot for any misdemeanor. What goes around comes around. :smile:

 

[L Gilbert]

Yep, when the average hunter sees his 06 against those it's pretty sobering. I know that i am too damn old to think about messing with big bores.
Both .577 and the .600 nitro (double bores) are over 100 years old. The .700 is more recent, late 80's i think. H&H were the primary builders.
The 460 Weatherby Magnum produces more energy because of it's velocity but does not have the bullet weight to back it up like the bigger bores.

hehe Just found some more info:


700 Nitro-Express - 1000 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2000 ft/sec - Energy 8,900 ft/lbs BL 26"

700/.577 Nitro-Express - 900 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2300 ft/sec – Energy 10,280 ft/lbs BL 26"
also Subject to availability

This is the specs from Westley Richards ammo division sans a price tag as they’re Subject to availability = means you buy them before they’ll make them and they don’t have overruns! $50 a cartridge doesn’t seem unreasonable when its next nearest competitor sells for $41.

.600 Nitro-Express - 900 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 1950 ft/sec Energy 7600 ft/lbs BL 24" $205/5

– Prices are for box of five (5) solid point

.470 Nitro-Express - 500 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2200 ft/sec Energy 5380 ft/lbs BL 26" $85/5

.476 Westley Richards - 520 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2150 ft/sec Energy 5340 ft/lbs BL 26" $90/5

.500 3" Nitro-Express - 570 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2150 ft/sec Energy 5850 ft/lbs BL 24" $92/5

.505 Gibbs - 525 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2310 ft/sec Energy 6260 ft/lbs BL 26" $110/5

.577 3" Nitro-Express - 750 grain Soft Nose or Solid Bullet
Muzzle Velocity 2050 ft/sec Energy 7010 ft/lbs BL 24" $125/5

 

[skookumchuck]

Cripes! I think i will stick to my tradition and load 160's for my old Ruger M77 7mm mag. That old bugger is like me, even with a beat up and slightly cracked stock it still does the job. :lol:

 

[Colpy]

Well, here's a pic of the .577 and a .600 nitro express side-by-side

Here's a pic of a few rounds:

from left to right they are;
373 H&H
505 Gibbs
500 Nitro
500 Jeffrey
500 A-Square
550 Express
550 Magnum
585 Nyati
577 Tyrannosaurus
600 Nitro
600 Overkill
and a 700 Nitro

Yeah....the Nitro Express cartridges were typically rimmed, made for double rifles and unsuitable for bolt actions, as under recoil the rim of a cartridge in the magazine could jump over behind the rim of the cartridge below it, effectively completely stopping the gun.

NOT a good thing when you have a few tons of really pissed-off mean critter trying to make you part of the terrain.

Notice the .577 in the top pic is "rimless", so there is nothing to catch on another cartridge.......made for bolt action rifles.

Biggest thing I ever fired was a .375 Holland and Holland.

 

[BruSan]

Yeah....the Nitro Express cartridges were typically rimmed, made for double rifles and unsuitable for bolt actions, as under recoil the rim of a cartridge in the magazine could jump over behind the rim of the cartridge below it, effectively completely stopping the gun.

NOT a good thing when you have a few tons of really pissed-off mean critter trying to make you part of the terrain.

Notice the .577 in the top pic is "rimless", so there is nothing to catch on another cartridge.......made for bolt action rifles.

Biggest thing I ever fired was a .375 Holland and Holland.

I'm still getting my head around at least five of those rounds having a small portion of larger O/D shoulder at the base of the bullet head itself and wondering how the dickens do they chamber those things, how does that larger base get down the barrel, is the barrel rifled to the O/D of the additional shoulder diameter or does the relatively small shoulder not present any drag when considering the size of the charge behind it.?

Enquiring minds need to know.

 

[skookumchuck]

I'm still getting my head around at least five of those rounds having a small portion of larger O/D shoulder at the base of the bullet head itself and wondering how the dickens do they chamber those things, how does that larger base get down the barrel, is the barrel rifled to the O/D of the additional shoulder diameter or does the relatively small shoulder not present any drag when considering the size of the charge behind it.?

Enquiring minds need to know.

The "chamber" on any rifle is made and shaped to accomodate the shoulder and body of the cartridge thus is larger than the barrel diameter. The projectile barely touches the rifling in the barrel and sometimes not all all.

 

[BruSan]

The "chamber" on any rifle is made and shaped to accomodate the shoulder and body of the cartridge thus is larger than the barrel diameter. The projectile barely touches the rifling in the barrel and sometimes not all all.

So the I/D of the lands of the rifling are sized slightly larger than that small section of shoulder on the base of the bullet?

If so that's kinda contrary to my familiarity of not wanting that bullet to wobble within the barrel on it's way down the bore as the only stability or accuracy it will have is given to it by that very small portion at the rear of the "head" with the major portion of the bullet having a very much smaller diameter than the lands of the rifling.

Perhaps it's not a consideration nowadays but it would have been when I worked for Canadian Arsenals back in the day to not give the bullet any opportunity to damn near turn sideways with such a variance between the O/D of the actual bullet and the I/D of the lands. We obsessed over that back then.

I guess subsequent tests have shown all that's needed is that teeny shoulder portion to provide stability and accuracy.

 

[JLM]

Is this thread going off track slightly? I think it was more about attitudes and behaviour than calibres of weapons! :smile:

 

[Kakato]

Is this thread going off track slightly? I think it was more about attitudes and behaviour than calibres of weapons! :smile:

Start talking guns and it happens.

 

[gerryh]

This would make most lefties hike up their skirts and run to mommy:lol:
Law student puts Cop in his place

Why do you say that?

 

[skookumchuck]

Why do you say that?

Because firearms are involved. I should have said modern city lefties because the old style left were made up of a lot of real folk.

 

[Niflmir]

I believe it's actually a result of the P/C anti-profiling nonsense. WE have allowed that aspect of policing to become so fraught with pitfalls for the police they don't dare put a foot afoul of those laws to the point that the only time they'll take a proactive approach is when Joe public calls and whines about some guy (whose legal, mind you) has the audacity to walk around with a pistol on his hip.

Oh, everybody involved knows that profiling works. It is just that a few people realize that it works not because of causative reasons, but of correlative reasons. It is also self-fulfilling: if I am always following around a certain group of people, I am more likely to catch them doing a crime and so increase their crime rate, providing a circular justification for the profiling.

Then how do they determine who has the right to carry and who doesn't? It is my understanding that convicted felons do not have that right so how would the cop know the difference without asking?

You cannot know that and that is the whole point. In the video, the person who was carrying the gun around explained this exact fact to the officer. As another example of the same legal principle, it is also illegal for any civilian to walk around with marijuana but this does not give the police the right to search anybody carrying rolling papers.

 

[CDNBear]

Because firearms are involved. I should have said modern city lefties because the old style left were made up of a lot of real folk.

I highly suspect you harbour a few old style left ideals.

I do, a lot of them. It confuses the hell out of, and angers, the resident NDP shills, lol.

 

[L Gilbert]

Yeah....the Nitro Express cartridges were typically rimmed, made for double rifles and unsuitable for bolt actions, as under recoil the rim of a cartridge in the magazine could jump over behind the rim of the cartridge below it, effectively completely stopping the gun.

NOT a good thing when you have a few tons of really pissed-off mean critter trying to make you part of the terrain.

Notice the .577 in the top pic is "rimless", so there is nothing to catch on another cartridge.......made for bolt action rifles.

Biggest thing I ever fired was a .375 Holland and Holland.

Anna's uncle has a 4 ga. Greener. It packs a wallop. Sprays nails, glass, etc. everywhere to a range of about 20 yards. lol Probably the origin of the term "scattergun".

So the I/D of the lands of the rifling are sized slightly larger than that small section of shoulder on the base of the bullet?

If so that's kinda contrary to my familiarity of not wanting that bullet to wobble within the barrel on it's way down the bore as the only stability or accuracy it will have is given to it by that very small portion at the rear of the "head" with the major portion of the bullet having a very much smaller diameter than the lands of the rifling.

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Off%20Lands.htm

Perhaps it's not a consideration nowadays but it would have been when I worked for Canadian Arsenals back in the day to not give the bullet any opportunity to damn near turn sideways with such a variance between the O/D of the actual bullet and the I/D of the lands. We obsessed over that back then.

when you have a difference of only a couple hundredths of a millimeter, getting a round in a barrel sideways isn't an issue.

 

[BruSan]

Anna's uncle has a 4 ga. Greener. It packs a wallop. Sprays nails, glass, etc. everywhere to a range of about 20 yards. lol Probably the origin of the term "scattergun".

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Off%20Lands.htm

when you have a difference of only a couple hundredths of a millimeter, getting a round in a barrel sideways isn't an issue.

The article link provided is making my point for me. In nearly every case of Land/Groove rifling, the lands I/D is somewhat smaller than the O/D of a portion of the bullet itself. This is what induces the spin to a bullet giving it accuracy to varying degrees. The article is talking about how far the distance may be between the commencement of where the bullet is at rest in the chamber and the contact point of those lands with the O/D of the bullet.

My question remains the same WHICH diameter of those bullets with the additonal shoulder portion immediately above the crimp is the rifling sized for: that relatively quite larger shoulder or the greater proportion of the bullet itself that is of a much smaller diameter but much greater contact patch length with the rifling and I can assure you that any bullet head with the kind of C.I.P. index rating of those larger shells is going to wobble considerably if it rely's upon that very minimal shoulder portion only, as it's entire contact with the rifling. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

 

[L Gilbert]

The article link provided is making my point for me. In nearly every case of Land/Groove rifling, the lands I/D is somewhat smaller than the O/D of a portion of the bullet itself. This is what induces the spin to a bullet giving it accuracy to varying degrees. The article is talking about how far the distance may be between the commencement of where the bullet is at rest in the chamber and the contact point of those lands with the O/D of the bullet.

Actually, the spin is mostly caused by the air in the grooves letting the round slip by.

My question remains the same WHICH diameter of those bullets with the additonal shoulder portion immediately above the crimp is the rifling sized for: that relatively quite larger shoulder or the greater proportion of the bullet itself that is of a much smaller diameter and I can assure you that any bullet head with the kind of C.I.P. index rating of those larger shells is going to wobble considerably if it rely's upon that very minimal shoulder portion only as it's only contact with the rifling. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

At the point of explosion the round expands from the force of the push behind it and a slight amount from the inertia of going from a seated position to rapid acceleration. it'll hit the lands enough to start it spinning and find a stability in the air cushion in the grooves.

 

[BruSan]

Actually, the spin is mostly caused by the air in the grooves letting the round slip by.

At the point of explosion the round expands from the force of the push behind it and a slight amount from the inertia of going from a seated position to rapid acceleration. it'll hit the lands enough to start it spinning and find a stability in the air cushion in the grooves.

I'm sorry but it must be the limited, or poorly described way I'm coming across with my question as you're not answering about the shoulder diameter's of the bullet heads mentioned, but instead, about the positon of the rifling relative to the static position of the bullet within the chamber.

I've been responsible for taking this thread off topic long enough and will close with;

One of the premiere long range cartridges today, the .338 Lapua Magnum as an example relies on not just a slight contact with the tops of the lands but a considerable contact such as bullet diameter being exactly 8.6 mm and the I/D of the bore at top of lands being exactly 8.3 mm for a .3 of a mm diameter difference with the bullet head being .3 (.0118") of a mm larger than the inner (top of land) bore diameter. Relying upon neither air or bullet head expansion (a very dangerous thing to have happen in higher pressure rounds and hence the primary reason for jacketing to have been invented) at burn to stabilize or provide accuracy, but rather that very considerable diameter difference (leaving a very distinctive .0055" groove in the bullet's head) to give that bullet a one in 10" rotation. It won't do that at the C.I.P. index of 68,000PSI Peizo created by that charge if it's reliant only on "minimal contact" or an "air cushion" in the grooves as you put it.