Refuse to choose® women deserve better® than abortion

[AnnaG]

Not true, Anna. Society as a whole agrees that after birth it is a human being, there is no argument about that.

And call it nit picking or call it semantics (like Toningotn did), but it is important. Human beings have certain rights guaranteed by the constitution, and if a fetus is considered a human being , it automatically acquires the same rights.

Thus if the fetus is a human being, every fetus must be named at conception and must be listed as the baby of the woman at conception, the conception must be registered with the government (like any birth). If she is on welfare, she will be able to draw welfare for two from the moment of conception.

Fetus must have health card number, Social Insurance number (in USA Social Security number) at conception. If a woman is ill and there is some question that fetus may have to be destroyed, the fetus must be given its own lawyer, to plead case of the fetus before the judge.

If there is a miscarriage, she must take the fetus to a proper funeral home, and have a funeral same as for any other human being, the death must be registered with the government.

Also the fetuses must be counted when government carries out a census.

So the implications are enormous, if the fetus is considered to be a human being. So it isn't nit picking, it is serious business.

Legal shmegal. You were talking science before and now you switched tracks and are chugging along the societal rails. Not fair.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Legal shmegal. You were talking science before and now you switched tracks and are chugging along the societal rails. Not fair.

The argument advances on both fronts, Anna.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP, all these could be exempted by Law.. These are simple excuses..

Why would all these be exempted by law, Anna, on what grounds? If fetus is considered a human being, all these rights flow from the Charter; the fetus will receive Charter protection, same as everybody else.

It will have to be done as I have outlined, or there will be Charter challenge (and government will lose the challenge).

 

[AnnaG]

The argument advances on both fronts, Anna.

I agree but but switching tracks when you can't win in the science discussion to claim victory in the legal end is dodgy, IMO.

Anyway, all they have to do legally is make a provision for people still inside the womb; such as, people on the outside are required to have names, SINs, etc. and people inside aren't required. BTW, speaking of names, I can't think of anyone who doesn't come up with at least one name for a child before it is born.

 

[Francis2004]

Why would all these be exempted by law, Anna, on what grounds? If fetus is considered a human being, all these rights flow from the Charter; the fetus will receive Charter protection, same as everybody else.

It will have to be done as I have outlined, or there will be Charter challenge (and government will lose the challenge).

SJP I am not AnnaG :roll:

I agree but but switching tracks when you can't win in the science discussion to claim victory in the legal end is dodgy, IMO.

Anyway, all they have to do legally is make a provision for people still inside the womb; such as, people on the outside are required to have names, SINs, etc. and people inside aren't required. BTW, speaking of names, I can't think of anyone who doesn't come up with at least one name for a child before it is born.

That is exactly what I meant by exemption by Law ..

There can be special provisions that exempt certain situations. Not everything is as cut and dry and all Laws have exemptions.

 

[AnnaG]

Besides, this discussion is getting a wee bit detoured.
Women want the choice and whether they use the choice or not is more or less irrelevant. These child containers are our bodies to deal with, no-one else's and if ANYONE should have a say as to what goes on with our bodies it is US, not anyone else's unless we ask for it.
Most of the time there are better routes to go than the abortion route.

 

[JLM]

Besides, this discussion is getting a wee bit detoured.
Women want the choice and whether they use the choice or not is more or less irrelevant. These child containers are our bodies to deal with, no-one else's and if ANYONE should have a say as to what goes on with our bodies it is US, not anyone else's unless we ask for it.
Most of the time there are better routes to go than the abortion route.

Just curious if anyone is gaining any ground in this argument in the past couple of years...................:lol::lol:

 

[Francis2004]

Besides, this discussion is getting a wee bit detoured.
Women want the choice and whether they use the choice or not is more or less irrelevant. These child containers are our bodies to deal with, no-one else's and if ANYONE should have a say as to what goes on with our bodies it is US, not anyone else's unless we ask for it.
Most of the time there are better routes to go than the abortion route.

Yes but it also requires the male sperm to make a child..

What happens when the male side wants the baby but not the female ?

Like I said, I believe their are only very limited times when Abortion should be used. Banning it would close all those times when in need but making it a free for all is not the answer either..

The responsibility is up to us to educate our kids and ourselves as to what having kids is all about..

 

[gerryh]

Besides, this discussion is getting a wee bit detoured.
Women want the choice and whether they use the choice or not is more or less irrelevant. These child containers are our bodies to deal with, no-one else's and if ANYONE should have a say as to what goes on with our bodies it is US, not anyone else's unless we ask for it.
Most of the time there are better routes to go than the abortion route.

Then make the reponsible decission to NOT get pregnant if you don't want to get pregnant.

 

[AnnaG]

Why would all these be exempted by law, Anna, on what grounds? If fetus is considered a human being, all these rights flow from the Charter; the fetus will receive Charter protection, same as everybody else.

It will have to be done as I have outlined, or there will be Charter challenge (and government will lose the challenge).

I am Anna, Sir Joe. I can't see why unborn humans would need to be exempted from the Charter. They should have the rights to choice of religion, expression, peaceful assembly, life, liberty, security, etc. What would it harm?

 

[JLM]

Besides, this discussion is getting a wee bit detoured.
Women want the choice and whether they use the choice or not is more or less irrelevant. These child containers are our bodies to deal with, no-one else's and if ANYONE should have a say as to what goes on with our bodies it is US, not anyone else's unless we ask for it.
Most of the time there are better routes to go than the abortion route.

Oooooooooooh Anna- wish you hadn't said that. "Containers" are generally only a very small fraction of the value of the contents.

 

[AnnaG]

Just curious if anyone is gaining any ground in this argument in the past couple of years...................:lol::lol:

I don't know about gains in the past 2 years, but we've acquired the choice as of '69 or '70, I think. lol

 

[AnnaG]

Then make the reponsible decission to NOT get pregnant if you don't want to get pregnant.

That would be the idea, Gerry. lol Sort of like why eat if you aren't hungry.
There's a good deal of contraceptives around that work very well. None are very expensive, as far as I know and I can't see any good reason not to use them to avoid pregnancy.

 

[AnnaG]

Oooooooooooh Anna- wish you hadn't said that. "Containers" are generally only a very small fraction of the value of the contents.

I know. Sorry. It was a term I grabbed at the spur of the moment. Obviously we are more than just containers. lol This one wants to hold some tea at the moment. So having a desire for tea is something beyond the capacity of a container.

 

[Cannuck]

I can't see why unborn humans would need to be exempted from the Charter.

So they can be killed when they are not wanted. The argument about whether they are a human or not is nothing more than an attempt to absolve the conscience.

I would have infinitely more respect for avid pro choice people if they would just be honest. Joey is no more credible than the bible-thumpers who trot out the bible in an attempt to win converts to the pro-life side.

 

[AnnaG]

hhmmm
That makes sense. TY

 

[givpeaceachance]

Quote:
Does the fetus have its own sex? YES!

Does the fetus have its own blood type? YES!

Does the fetus have its own DNA? YES!

And how does that prove that fetus is a human being? A dead body also has all this, its own sex, its own blood type, its own DNA. - SJP

You have got to be kidding me! Is the fetus not in a stage of growth at any given time? Why not try being honest with yourself. Its alive and you know it.

Alley, that is besides the point. You were advancing the three criteria (that fetus has its own sex, own blood type, own DNA) as proof that fetus is alive and a human being. To which I replied that it proves nothing of the sort, a dead body (human or non human) has all these things.

Now are you saying that because fetus is growing all the time that it is human? That doesn’t make sense.

Question: What is the difference between a dead person and a fetus?

Answer: A heart beat.

Do you need a scientist to explain that?

 

[givpeaceachance]

There are 3 examples that I know of personally in relation to abortion.

1rst - When I was in high school there was this girl I knew that was completely upset one day. She had pulled me and another friend of mine aside and exclaimed that she was pregnant. She wanted to have an abortion. Her problem wasn't having the abortion but rather that she was worried about her future fertility as she had already had two abortions before and the doctor told her that to have another one would be quite precarious to her and her ability to have a family in the future. We didn't know what to tell her. We were taught about contraceptives. We were taught about safe sex. We were in grade 11 which would mean that by 16 this girl had already had 2 abortions and was considering her third which she ended up doing. Honestly, we both thought she was an idiot because obtaining birth control such as condoms or the pill was so friggen easy. A lot education did for her!

2nd - There was this guy in the military who was dating this girl in Vancouver. He lived in another province. He would delight in showing off pics of his girls chest from his cellphone to anyone that would take a gander hoping to garner the old "atta boy" from the people around him. One day he told a couple of his buddies that he got her pregnant. He didn't know what to do. She was worried that her dad would kill her if he found out that she was pregnant. He asked around about what to do. She ended up having an abortion. He paid for it and then went off on his tour to Afghanistan. I don't think they are together anymore. And for all intents and purposes, this guy was not worth all the pain and suffering. I can assure you.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these situations were truly selfish reasons to terminate a pregnancy. And I have a feeling that these are the typical senarios in which a lot abortions are contemplated.

The 3rd situation is different and the most personal - I had these playmates that I grew up with who were children that belonged to a couple who were friends with my parents. I was shocked to learn, much later when I was older, that one of the boys was supposed to have been aborted by his mother. She tried the french abortion pill. This was way back in the 70's but it didn't work. And by the sheer virtue that it had failed, his mother decided to let it alone and have the baby. He is a wonderful person and has since gone on to have a decent life and a family of his own. I to this day have no idea whether or not he knows about what his mother did or tried to do, nor would I ever want to find out but I wept in private after I was told this. That he may never have been alive, I would've never have had a funner playmate/partner in crime (man did we get into some trouble) nor would I have had a sweeter first kiss.

Abortion is all too serious an issue and the way that is is being debated on this thread is so demeaning. It means the loss of a future friend, at least, that's what it would have meant to me.

 

[bluedog]

There are 3 examples that I know of personally in relation to abortion.

1rst -Her problem wasn't having the abortion but rather that she was worried about her future fertility as she had already had two abortions before and the doctor told her that to have another one would be quite precarious to her and her ability to have a family in the future. We didn't know what to tell her. We were taught about contraceptives. We were taught about safe sex. We were in grade 11 which would mean that by 16 this girl had already had 2 abortions.

2nd - There was this guy in the military who was dating this girl in Vancouver. She was worried that her dad would kill her if he found out that she was pregnant. He asked around about what to do. She ended up having an abortion. He paid for it and then went off on his tour to Afghanistan. I don't think they are together.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these situations were truly selfish reasons to terminate a pregnancy. And I have a feeling that these are the typical senarios in which a lot abortions are contemplated.

The 3rd situation is different and the most personal - I had these playmates that I grew up. I was shocked to learn, much later that one of the boys was supposed to have been aborted And by the sheer virtue that it had failed, his mother decided to let it alone and have the baby. He is a wonderful person and has since gone on to have a decent life and a family of his own. I wept in private after I was told this.

Abortion is all too serious an issue and the way that is is being debated on this thread is so demeaning. It means the loss of a future friend, at least, that's what it would have meant to me.

**************************************************

Thank you Thank You THANK YOU!!! Finally a personal story of the real pain abortion causes women, the first that actually deals directly with my presenting thread! I too knew a woman I grew up with that had two abortions to please men who were not to be any part of her life anyway. She will always feel the pain of the total ramifications of her decision. I believe she still mourns those two children for today is childless, not by Choice. She actually fears pregnancy again, potentially raising a child then just to lose another. That woman also has issues with whether losing a man over another potential decison. She is torn, her heart is maligned forever.

I pray for her today again, I hope she has found the Lord and He heals her heart giving her a new faith, a reknewed hope and some fabulous joy!

Thank you again, Mark:fish:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

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