Rape Victim's Sentence Doubled

[Outta here]

The thing is this. She was born and raised in Saudi Arabia knowing full well what the laws were in regard to her being in the company of males that were NOT her relatives. She chose to break that law. That was HER choice. Just because she may not have agreed with that law, or felt that it was "repressive" does not mean she can just ignore the law and expect that there be no consequences. Just because we, here in North America, believe that a certain law is "repressive" or we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we can ignore or break that law without suffering the consequences.

See gerryh, I agree with you when you put it like that. You are correct. But in some cases correct and 'right' are not the same thing. I believe that your POV is being countered by folks who can see past the correctness of the thing here and are focusing on a higher ideal - which is simply that this is not right.

Law upholds an agenda. In more evolved societies the agenda is usually more palatable to the populace as a whole... note I said 'usually'... not always. But in a society where one segment carries an agenda that is soley self serving, at an extreme and unjust cost to the inherent rights (yes I said inherent, and in my view some rights are inherent) of the remaining people that comprise that society, can you honestly assert that justice is being served, or taking it a step further, that it's irrelevant?

On that level, given that we know what the reality of the situation is - what say you about the justice that is/isn't being served here?

 

[gerryh]

Thing is Zan, we do not have the right to pass judgement, anymore than they have the right to pass judgement on our societal mores/laws.

 

[Outta here]

gerry, we're not passing judgment - we're acknowledging that some people aren't being treated as we would wish to be treated. More apples and oranges. Unless you want to get into semantics about the word judgment - in which case we're judging every second of every day from the moment we wake to the moment we rise - from which brand of cereal we 'judge' to be 'better' than the other - to which time is 'better' to set our alarms clocks at night. It's all relative yes?

I ask again - what and whose interests are being served by this law? Society as a whole? If not, then not. No amount of semantics will make it acceptable.

 

[gerryh]

gerry, we're not passing judgment - we're acknowledging that some people aren't being treated as we would wish to be treated. More apples and oranges. Unless you want to get into semantics about the word judgment - in which case we're judging every second of every day from the moment we wake to the moment we rise - from which brand of cereal we 'judge' to be 'better' than the other - to which time is 'better' to set our alarms clocks at night. It's all relative yes?

I ask again - what and whose interests are being served by this law? Society as a whole? If not, then not. No amount of semantics will make it acceptable.

Ahhhhhh...but we are passing judgement, and it is a judgement based on societal mores that WE have been brought up with.

If Saudi society feels that Sharia Law is unjust than it will modify those laws. It has already done just that when comparing to some other ME societies that also use "Sharia Law".

In our own society, even the "watered down"(comparativley speaking) Sharia law of Saudi Arabia is judged to be unjust. Then again, if you were to speak to a proponent of Sharia Law about our own justice system I'm sure they could give you an earful as to how unjust our own system is.

 

[Outta here]

Ahhhhhh...but we are passing judgement, and it is a judgement based on societal mores that WE have been brought up with.

nope. Not buying it. Who is "WE"? If not an accurate representation of the society in question as a whole, then it negates your argument. It would then be "SOME" rather than "WE". Damn there's those semantics again. ;-)

If Saudi society feels that Sharia Law is unjust than it will modify those laws. It has already done just that when comparing to some other ME societies that also use "Sharia Law".

Same rationale - same flaw, I'm afraid. It's not Sharia Law - it's Sharia Mens' Law. If you haven't noticed by now, I suck at arguments based on logic, yet to me this seems a bit like selective logic?


eta: got some quotes messed up

 

[tracy]

I don't understand why can't we judge? There are certain things we have ackowledged as always wrong such as genocide, child molestation, slavery, apartheid, etc. regardless of where they take place.

Sentencing a rape victim to jail time and physical torture for being in the presence of an unrelated man may not seem wrong to some people, but it does to me. It doesn't matter if it's legal. It's still wrong.

 

[Kreskin]

Countries like Saudi Arabia ignore the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Pick just about any article out of there and Saudi Arabia violates it. Or perhaps Sharia Law violates it.

 

[Outta here]

I don't understand why can't we judge? There are certain things we have ackowledged as always wrong such as genocide, child molestation, slavery, apartheid, etc. regardless of where they take place.

Sentencing a rape victim to jail time and physical torture for being in the presence of an unrelated man may not seem wrong to some people, but it does to me. It doesn't matter if it's legal. It's still wrong.

I agree Tracy; if we need to make it more palatable we could say we are choosing to discern the difference between right and wrong, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the same thing when used in this context.

 

[Hazmart]

Gerry, I agree with what you are saying regarding that she knew the law that she was breaking when she when she went with a man that was not her relative. It is not like it is a little known law, she was raised under this law and it is a law that would affect her every day.

With that said, I as a woman, have a difficult time wrapping my mind around these laws. As a western woman I can not even comprehend having to abide by these rules everyday. Not even being able to choose to leave without the permission of my husband or which ever man was in charge of me.

I don't know a lot about Islam or Islamic law but I recently read the memoir by Carmen Bin Laden called 'Inside the Kindom'. I got the impression that the women living under these laws are proud of their culture, it is not just their law it is also their belief, their religion.

Even though I personally disagree with these laws, I feel that I do have to have some respect because it is their society, and their beliefs just as I would expect that they respect my society, my religion and my beliefs as well.

Just as a last thought, laws, society, belief and religion aside, rape is a horrible crime. My thoughts are with her.
Haz

 

[Just the Facts]

The law doesn't suggest anything of the sort, and what "basic freedom" does this Sharia Law prevent YOU from excersising?

Of course it does. When you forbid a woman from being in male company to avoid being raped, you put the blame on her as well as the onus to avoid being raped.

As for affecting us, if we all keep our heads buried in the politically correct sand, it's just a matter of time. A very quick perusal on google reveals:

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003640.html
Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Law Center said of the Islamic sessions at Excelsior: "No federal court would have permitted a class where public school students were taught to 'become Catholics' for three weeks, selected a saint's name, wore identification tags that displayed their new name and a Crucifix, and engaged in Catholic religious practices. Here, however, students were subjected to Islamic religious indoctrination and propaganda and the courts turned a blind eye.

http://www.hatefreeamerica.com/022702.htm
After Sept. 11, we were shocked to realize that "our friends, the Saudis" gave us Usama bin Laden, 15 of the 19 terrorists of Sept. 11 and more than 100 of the 150-plus terrorist leaders now confined in Guantanamo Bay cells. They also fund the Islamic schools spreading hate around the world towards Christians, Jews, America, freedom, and our sacred values.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/terrorism.php?id=1385183
The Saudi government uses its great wealth and influence to fund Muslim schools and mosques throughout the world. FSM Contributing Editor Adrian Morgan gives a shocking account of how widely materials intended to indoctrinate the recipients to radical Islam are disseminated.

http://www.therant.us/staff/huston/10242007.htm
The Commission reports that the curriculum at the Islamic Saudi Academy reflects the religious intolerance taught at schools in Saudi Arabia where intolerance and bigotry against Jews and Christians is the norm.



But it's us imposing our culture on them, right?

 

[Just the Facts]

So, a law specifically designed to protect a woman from getting raped is repressive. Interesting.

Any woman who wants to not get into a car for fear of being raped is free to do so.

Forcing a woman to stay home because someone else might commit a crime against her is repressive, yes. And it does indeed suggest that the womans behaviour is the cause for being raped.

 

[gerryh]

Any woman who wants to not get into a car for fear of being raped is free to do so.

Forcing a woman to stay home because someone else might commit a crime against her is repressive, yes. And it does indeed suggest that the womans behaviour is the cause for being raped.

Maybe it does in your mind, but it sure as hell doesn't in mine, and I would say it goes along way in telling exactley how you think and where you truly lay blame.

Hazmat put it quit well as to how we, comeing from another culture and religious background should be looking at this.

Intolerance, and the unwillingness to understand and except is the fuel for bigotry and war. Tollerance and exceptance are the roads to peace and understanding.

 

[Just the Facts]

Maybe it does in your mind, but it sure as hell doesn't in mine, and I would say it goes along way in telling exactley how you think and where you truly lay blame.

Absolutely, thank you. When a man rapes a woman, I blame the man.

 

[tracy]

Intolerance, and the unwillingness to understand and except is the fuel for bigotry and war. Tollerance and exceptance are the roads to peace and understanding.

Tolerance and acceptance without limits is just insane. Some things are simply unacceptable. It isn't bigotry to say so.

 

[gerryh]

Absolutely, thank you. When a man rapes a woman, I blame the man.

Obviously not.

 

[Just the Facts]

Obviously not.

:?::?: