We'll see. The election is not for a while yet, plenty of time for Quebecois to fume about the policies Harper enacts.
Quebec's flirt with the NDP
- Thread starter s_lone
- Start date
We'll see. The election is not for a while yet, plenty of time for Quebecois to fume about the policies Harper enacts.
If the YES side ever wins, negotiations will indeed be rough n' tough and I think many separatists are in denial about this.
The reason most Quebecers feel different is mostly because they speak a different language. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying Quebecers are right to consider themselves more special than the ROC (I don't believe in a special status for Quebec) but it's clear that the language divide is mostly responsible for this feeling that we are our own nation (I do agree that we are our own nation!). Beyond that it's clear that Quebec is more left leaning than the rest of the country. And that's a key issue to connect with the language issue. There has always been a strong collectivist vibe in Quebec and the reason language laws are accepted by a majority here is that they are understood as being a necessary protection of the rights of our collectivity.
Individual rights is all nice and good. But collective rights are also a strong and necessary reality
I will personally be the first to admit that Canada is very diverse and as I said, I don't believe in a special status for Quebec. What I believe in is a significantly decentralized Canada that gives enough leverage to ALL provinces to manage their own affairs. My initial reaction to the ROC complaining about our language laws is ''mind your own ****ing business'' and I'm a pretty soft nationalist. The picture couldn't be clear enough. Quebecers won't let strangers from the ROC decide if we can protect our language or not. If Quebec is to be fully included in Canada, the country will have to accept once and for all our linguistic situation and our determination to protect our language.
We are all to blame. Quebecers are to blame for thinking they're more special than the ROC and the rest of Canada is to blame for not accepting Quebec's difference. There is no contradiction in what I just said. I strongly believe that the future of Canada lies in its capacity to sustain some form of multinationalism. Quebec nationalism doesn't have to be against Canada. Many soft nationalists like me simply view Canada as being a larger political framework of which we are a part of. A bit like France is part of the European Union. The key here is dialogue and as I already said, dialogue is difficult when you don't speak the same language.
We'll just have to wait and see...
The Conservative majority might be bad for a united Canada because Quebecers voted overwhelmingly against the Conservatives and with the already existent tendency for Quebec to feel isolated, Quebec nationalism has a strong potential for flaring up. The question is HOW will it flare up and to what goal...
As for the Constitution, Quebec should NOT rule the rest of the country. Quebec should simply have the right to do things their way on certain key issues. But ALL provinces should have that right. Quebecers may be guilty of feeling more special than the rest of the country, I can admit that, but they're not guilty of trying to STOP other provinces from gaining the same rights to some form of independence. Canadians need to wake up on that issue. The independence Quebec is trying to gain is up for grabs everywhere in Canada. It's up to you to fight for it if you want to do so. If you don't want more independence for you province that's your business, but don't blame us for wanting to be ''maîtres chez nous''!!!
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No argument from me on this. Not being a Quebecer (not having ever set foot in the province!), all I have is the impression of what seperatists expect, as portrayed in the media and they seem to have a very different set of expectations as to what they envision than what I get from leaders/citizens outside Quebec.
I don't completely agree with you here, mainly because of the left-leaning politics statement. BC, Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan have all had NDP provincial gov'ts in recent memory. Now not all of them are remembered fondly by those provinces but BC's NDP was one of the most leftwing parties in the nation.
My reaction to Quebec language laws is that a) they are unnecessary because of the protection the constitution and federal language laws grant, b) Quebecers need to accept that English Canada isn't the threat to their language but rather cultural evolution, and trying to stem the tide of history through legislative means (means that are discriminatory) is ineffective and only generates derision and contempt when looked on from the outside. People in Acadian or the francophone parts of New Brunswick don't seem to need any further protection for their culture (which is arguably more endangered because they are smaller "islands" so to speak) so why does Quebec? Can it not stand on its own merits, within the equality that federal law grants to ALL cultures but especially to the french culture in Canada?
I don't agree. Quebec is still seeming to harbour grudges that go back beyond Confederation. Yes, there have been times that the french population of Quebec was looked down upon, and politically alienated but thats not unique: it still happens in our politics today, with the regionalism. No one else to blame for the demands Quebec makes, and in fact the rest of the country has made concessions to Quebec's language and culture fairly consistently. And Canada is a nation, not an economic union like the EU, so the dynamic has to be different.
I agree dialogue is key but its not going to get anywhere when one side is expected to make all the concessions...
Hey, I agree with you that there is too much control in Ottawa: thats been pretty much a universal feeling amongst most Albertans as long as I can remember but Quebec isn't stopping there. By having its own embassies in other countries, by controlling its own immigation policies, among other things, Quebec is taking actions that do affect everyone else in the country, and not necessarily in a positive manner. You talked earlier about Quebec's collectivist mindset, but it seems to stop at the provincial borders...
The NDs Las Vegas candidate, the CBC is reporting that the supporters who signed her nomination papers are claiming that is not their signature and they did not sign her nomination papers.
Also, she did not live in the riding she got elected.
Hmmmm, Jack and kids are already having problems!
Also, she did not live in the riding she got elected.
Hmmmm, Jack and kids are already having problems!
So?... They might hold some by-elections. Big deal. NDP had a snowball's chance in Hell. This time they were taken seriously. Clean slate.... Change.... Issues? Your guy's Cap'n.... Cry on His shoulder.
Different people, different way of thinking...
As I said in another post, I don't deny the existence of a left wing movement in Canada. It's very real. But it nonetheless seems clear to me that Quebec is clearly on the left side of the Canadian political spectrum. How else could you explain the NDP's recent success in Quebec?
I think we can very well live with your derision and contempt concerning our language laws. Quebecers might be ambiguous about sovereignty but they are quite confident in their belief that legislative measures need to be taken to protect French in our sociopolitical context. Canadian bilingualism is nice and cute, but that won't stop French from slowly declining in the North American context. French might end up disappearing in the long run (nothing is eternal) but we can at least slow down the decline and give it a good fight.
One of the key aspects of language laws is asking immigrants in Quebec to send their kids to French school. Giving them choice would mean that an overwhelming amount of immigrants would send their kids to English school, the reality of North America being what it is. I can't say I would blame them...
Montreal is a truly bilingual city today. But had there never existed any language laws, it would be overwhelmingly English. I live here and know what i'm talking about. This drastic anglicization is something we Quebecers want to avoid in order to have some form of cohesion as a society. The fact that immigrants need to learn French gives them the opportunity to integrate in both the Quebec francophone majority as well as in the greater Canadian anglophone majority because face it, English is a heck of a lot more easier to learn than French, especially in North America.
The idea isn't to eradicate English, it's to protect French. Furthermore, ''native'' anglophones in Quebec already have the right to send their kids to English school. The goal of all this is to avoid the ghettoization of immigrants and alienation of francophones in big multicultural cities like Montreal. There is already a split between Montreal and the rest of the province, it would be an unbridgeable gap if Montreal was overwhelmingly English amid a predominantly francophone ''ROQ'' *rest of Quebec''.
As for sign laws they require French on signs. But other that that you can put any obscure language you want. Want Arameic? Be our guest! Want Klingon? Why not! So long as you put French too.
You might view this as being an attack on individual rights but so be it. We believe it's our right as a collectivity to protect our language efficiently. As I already mentioned, collective rights are as important as individual rights.
Yup, Canada is a nation in the sense that it is a country, but historically it is also a very diversified web of interlocking national identities. English, French, Aboriginal (with all the diversity that this implies), Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, etc. In the case of French Canadians and the Québecois in particular the national identity is very much alive and intact. We might not be a nation-country. But we are a nation-state in the sense that Quebec is a state. We constantly refer to ''L'État Québecois'' which literally means the Quebec state. Why do you think we have ''national assembly'' in Quebec City, our capital? That's not to provoke frustration at you ROCers, it's just perfectly natural for us to call it that way because we are and feel like a nation. That doesn't mean in any form of way that we can't be part of a broader Canadian nation.
That's because we are a collectivity associated with the ''state'' of Quebec who's borders are finite. Again that doesn't mean Quebec can't feel at home within Canada. Work needs to be done and much dialogue needs to happen but it's possible.
How about a link?
Take note of who has the problem with it.... What's it say when someone who didn't campaign beat out the Tory?
The NDP may possibly tear itself apart over the next 4 years. What with a majoriy of members from Quebec & the Sherbrooke Declaration in effect it the NDP a separatist party (not necessarily active but fully supporting). What kind of reaction can we expect from the 42 MP's outside Quebec. They would be pretty much giving up any chance of reelection in ROC if they support the Declaration.
1. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone in who votes for the Bloc and/or PLO in Quebec is a Separatist.
2. You may not agreed with his politics, but Doucette had been a party leader longer than any of the current politician because in the eyes of many Quebecers, he has done a credible job promoting that province's interests without being constantly "mired" in scandal - like some other leaders I could mention!
3. Many Quebecers have come to the conclusion that the interests of their province is best promoted by a group that speaks with one voice - even if it was separatist.
4. An unsigned federal Constitution in Quebec is an ongoing, unresolved irritant that feeds right into the anti-OIttawa sentiment that the separatists are trying to exploit.
5. Layton had aleady stated that he is not about to reopen the Constitutional issue unless there is a reasonable chance that ot can be settled amicably. It is not in the best interests of anyone to open it up only to have if fail.
6.. Separatists have played a prominent role in Quebec for decades. The Bloc and PLQ could never support Quebec signing onto a Canadia Constitution, so Layton realizes that 2011 represents a truly unique "window of opportunity" where separatists are in decline both federally or provincially.
2. You may not agreed with his politics, but Doucette had been a party leader longer than any of the current politician because in the eyes of many Quebecers, he has done a credible job promoting that province's interests without being constantly "mired" in scandal - like some other leaders I could mention!
3. Many Quebecers have come to the conclusion that the interests of their province is best promoted by a group that speaks with one voice - even if it was separatist.
4. An unsigned federal Constitution in Quebec is an ongoing, unresolved irritant that feeds right into the anti-OIttawa sentiment that the separatists are trying to exploit.
5. Layton had aleady stated that he is not about to reopen the Constitutional issue unless there is a reasonable chance that ot can be settled amicably. It is not in the best interests of anyone to open it up only to have if fail.
6.. Separatists have played a prominent role in Quebec for decades. The Bloc and PLQ could never support Quebec signing onto a Canadia Constitution, so Layton realizes that 2011 represents a truly unique "window of opportunity" where separatists are in decline both federally or provincially.
Unfortunately for Mr Layton, he will have little chance to get into any mischief with the constitution as leader of our opposition, DG. Mr Harper has clearly stated that tinkering with the constitution is not on the radar. With a majority gov, the opposition can suggest all they want but if it isn't something that the Conservatives wish to do, it won't be done.
Just in nagging, Layton keeps his word to Quebec - and in being turned down, he saves face to staunch francophobes. Can Harper claim the same?
Please, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Quebec already enjoy more privileges than the other provinces? If that is the case, then any more repatriating of powers to the province must include the same for every other province in Canada. Quebec is no more, no less special than any other province in our country.
The short answer is of course, no. However, opening the constitution to appease Quebec or bring it into the fold is not something most Canadians give a hoot about. Thus, Mr Harper would simply be following the wishes of the ROC. IMHO.
Why don't most Canadians give a hoot? Quebec was a piece of Canada in my atlas. I think it's time to get it over with. Are we a whole country or not?
