Psychics see big trouble over new laws

Dexter Sinister

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I don't know about Randi but I have given you nine PHDs who say the following:
Yes you did, and you should know about Randi if you're going to make claims about the paranormal. Having a Ph.D. is no guarantee of being right. There are lots of people with Ph.D.s doing stupid things. Randi's a professional magician who knows how all the tricks are done, and frequently both duplicates them by perfectly mundane methods and exposes people who claim paranormal powers.

The only name on the list I recognized was Charles Tart, whose claims for parapsychology have been widely discredited. If the rest of the people are as credulous and uncritical as he is, and I know enough about assorted tests that have been conducted on so-called paranormal phenomena to consider that not worth any further investigation, that's not much of a recommendation.

Human memory and perception are notoriously problematical. We're brilliant at seeing patterns and significance where there isn't any, and at retrofitting events to suit what we'd like to believe. That's most likely what's going on with other posters' claims about premonitions and precognitions in this thread. People remember when they have a feeling that they're later able to fit events to, and don't remember those feelings if nothing later happens that's related to them; they're working with selective memory and confirmation bias, not working with the full dataset.

Ever watched a psychic at work? They'll toss out all kinds of vague ideas, wait for a positive reaction from the client, then drill into that. The client will remember the psychic as getting a hit, when careful analysis of video tape of the session will show that most of what the psychic guessed was wrong and it was the client who revealed the information, not the psychic.

Most parapsychologists don't know how to think clearly either. After many failed attempts to duplicate some initial positive result, they'll conclude that the phenomenon must be very elusive. A more honest conclusion would be that the initial positive result was an error or a coincidence.
 

shadowshiv

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Who's to say whether or not there are no true psychics in the world? There are too many unexplained situations that have happened for me to just shrug and say that it doesn't exist.
 

lone wolf

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Isn't a clinical scientific test sort of like premeditated spontanaeity? Random chance just doesn't work that way. Science has doubts but it can't totally dismiss psychicism either.

Woof!
 

#juan

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I should know about some bloody magician before I talk about parapsychology? I don't profess to be an expert but I know what parapsychology is. I also know that the results that people in the field are getting are fairly convincing. That you haven't heard of eight of the nine people I listed suggests that maybe that is your fault not mine. I don't claim to be any kind of an expert and neither do you but in a casual conversation who the hell cares.
 

s_lone

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Yes, actually, it is.
Nope. Parapsychology has produced no scientifically respectable results. That's why it's still on the fringe: it hasn't proven its claims. There's been a million dollar prize available for a long time from the James Randi Educational Foundation for anyone who can demonstrate the reality of any paranormal phenomenon. Everybody who's tried, under conditions they themselves have agreed were fair and reasonable--that's one of the conditions of the test--has failed completely. You can read all about it at www.randi.org.

Where exactly do you draw the line in between what is ''normal'' and ''paranormal''? It's an important question to answer if one is to consider James Randi's challenge.

What is defined as being ''paranormal''?
 

Dexter Sinister

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I should know about some bloody magician before I talk about parapsychology?
Yes you should. James Randi's devoted a good part of his life to investigating the paranormal and he knows far more about it than you or I or most parapsychologists do.
 

#juan

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Dexter

The nine PHDs and one B Sc I listed were the co-authors of the FAQ blog I posted a link to. In my opinion these people have addressed the questions in a reasonable manner. None of them claim to be psychic or claim to have any special powers. These people are scientists currently working in the field of parapsychology. I will give them the benefit of the doubt since I am not qualified to do otherwise.

http://www.parapsych.org/faq_file1.html
 
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#juan

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It works but I don't know how it works........Anybody??
 

#juan

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Right. We tend to focus on what the magician wants us to focus on....Oh well...:lol:
 

Nuggler

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Feb 27, 2006
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:read2:Dr. Frood says, a psychic can look at a deck of cards from the back and tell what each is as they are shuffled.
:tard:WHEREAS, a PSYCHO, would cut up all the cards, kill you, and feel nothing.

This has nothing to do with this thread, but if you are psychic, you knew it wouldn't and didn't bother to read this post..............:laughing8:

tuff taters, eh!

If'n I wuz a psychic I would sell short, buy long, at the right moment, be so rich Billy Gates would kiss my ass, and I wouldn't be a goddam loser posting on some silly ****ing forum.............:lol::bootyshake:...................KIDDING, KIDDING, OK,,,,,,,KIDDING. 8O
 

Dexter Sinister

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I will give them the benefit of the doubt since I am not qualified to do otherwise.
I am, and I give them the benefit of no doubt whatsoever. It's flim-flam. I do understand the details of statistics, how to do a properly controlled double-blind experiment, how people who don't can mine data and erroneously claim to find things they weren't looking for, the pitfalls of meta-analyses, and a variety of other things. There is absolutely no evidence for the paranormal that can survive proper skeptical scientific scrutiny and that does not, when sufficient information is available, admit of much simpler explanations. There is nothing to investigate except errors in perception and logic, everything points to the conclusion that paranormal phenomena are not real.
 

#juan

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My meaning Dexter, was that I am not a parapsychologist, or anything close. I took a couple psychology courses at UBC one year when I was late registering and couldn't get into the engineering courses I wanted but that doesn't qualify me for anything.
I have read a bit about your James Randi and my feelings are mixed. He may be a magician but he is not a scientist. Randi seems to have made a good part of his career of trying to debunk Uri Geller. Randi didn't convince the scientists who tested Geller because they are still happy with their results. I watched the tapes of the Geller experiments and could find nothing wrong with the double blind methods they used. Unless I want to call all these scientists liars and frauds, I would have to concede that the experiments were on the level. I still have an open mind about parapsychology.
For a different look at James Randi: http://tinyurl.com/8yad3
 

s_lone

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The ancients came up with tons of different theories to explain the odd movement of the planets in the sky which just didn't fit with the perfectly regular ''movement'' of the stars. All these theories were wrong as long as they were stuck in their fundamentally flawed conceptions of what the Earth was compared to the rest of the universe. The Copernican revolution finally opened the right doors to reach a proper understanding of what we observe in the sky but that happened with a radical shift of perspective and often counter-intuitive conclusions; the Earth is not stationnary, it is not flat but round and 'floats' in space while orbiting the sun etc.

For a greater part of humanity's history, the movement of the planets in the sky were not explainable or at least not rightly explained. That didn't make the existence of the planets paranormal. The planets were only 'paranormal' in the sense that they were poorly or wrongly explained by rational thought.

I suspect if we were to ultimately prove the reality of phenomenon that are popularly coined as being 'paranormal', then the explanations required to properly understand the phenomena would require a significant shift in our global understanding of the world.

Let's consider telepathy. It is either possible or not. If it's not possible, then any attempt to prove it will ultimately fail and any succesful results will simply be wrongly understood. But if telepathy IS possible, and we simply don't know if it's possible or not, then wouldn't we be foolish to stop ourselves from researching it? It seems to me that science is much too young to reach final conclusions on any subject, especially subjects that deal with realities of the human psyche, which are often better described qualitatively than quantitively.

Do we really know enough about time and space to say that telepathy is fundamentally impossible? Do we really know enough about the brain to say such a thing? Do we really understand the nature of this world properly to claim such a thing? I don't think so and it seems to me that keeping an open mind on these matters can only be healthy. That being said, critical thinking is absolutely necessary to balance out the open mind.

To sum it up, I don't see anything wrong with parapsychology. I believe good science should always consider the 'what if?' factor. And imagination (behind the ''what if?'' factor) is a great tool for figuring things out.
 

lone wolf

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I am, and I give them the benefit of no doubt whatsoever. It's flim-flam. I do understand the details of statistics, how to do a properly controlled double-blind experiment, how people who don't can mine data and erroneously claim to find things they weren't looking for, the pitfalls of meta-analyses, and a variety of other things. There is absolutely no evidence for the paranormal that can survive proper skeptical scientific scrutiny and that does not, when sufficient information is available, admit of much simpler explanations. There is nothing to investigate except errors in perception and logic, everything points to the conclusion that paranormal phenomena are not real.

You aren't describing paranormal ability. There is a big difference between the psychic phenomenon and Jo Jo's psychic hotline. Fortune tellers and cops use the same methods. Science tells us we only can tap into 10% of the brain's capability. What's to say instinct, premonition and deja vu are just plain hocus-pocus? On the other hand, who can really say it isn't? To close off your mind and deny is not science.

Woof!
 

Dexter Sinister

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You aren't describing paranormal ability.
Yes I am.
There is a big difference between the psychic phenomenon and Jo Jo's psychic hotline.
No there isn't, not really. Both make claims for which there is no evidence.
Science tells us we only can tap into 10% of the brain's capability.
Science has never said any such thing, that's just another of those damnfool myths. Read this. And while you're at it, read this.
 

#juan

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Quote: There is a big difference between the psychic phenomenon and Jo Jo's psychic hotline.
No there isn't, not really. Both make claims for which there is no evidence.
No evidence? Only if we want to say that the entire field of parapsychology is made up of tricksters and liars. There have been many positive results that people like Randi ignore or lie about. Skeptics like Randi don't stand up to the scrutiny that he subjects others to.


The Problem with James Randi
And his foundation on the paranormal, pseudoscientific and supernatural
by Skylaire Alfvegren
Back to... Examining Skeptics

Dogmatists of any stripe are fundamentally wounded, whether they're Islamic terrorists, Christian abortion-clinic bombers or magicians with an axe to grind.

Picture this: A little boy with an imagination and a sense of wonder begins futzing with a deck of cards, sleight of hand ... as that boy delves deeper into magic, it's revealed to be nothing more than a world of smoke and mirrors, of "cons" and "marks." Stage magicians, like lawyers and secret agents, make a living from deception, so perhaps they assume everyone else does, as well. From that perspective, the connection between stage magic and skepticism makes sense.

What's more important, what science knows or what it doesn't (yet)? What's more beneficial to scientific inquiry, an open mind or a sense of self-importance? These are questions that beg to be asked of the skeptical movement, which convenes in Las Vegas this weekend for The Amazing Meeting, a benefit for the James Randi Educational Foundation. (The conference takes place at the Stardust and features Murray Gell-Mann, Nadine Strossen, the Mythbusters, Penn & Teller, Mac King, Jamy Ian Swiss, Phil Plait, Julia Sweeney, and Michael Shermer.) After all, while it's true that opportunists profit from the murky worlds of the paranormal and the unknown, and that some people will believe anything, it's also true that scientists have falsified data to get grants or overlooked inconvenient phenomenon to maintain the status quo in their field.

Well, as iconoclastic writer Charles Fort once noted, "Witchcraft always has a hard time, until it becomes established and changes its name."

But let's not generalize. Let's examine the contributions made by Randi, the skeptical movement's leading figure, to science and objective thought.

Randi can be eloquent and is quite the showman; he is also wildly intelligent—he got a MacArthur genius grant in 1986. But according to his detractors, Randi's main qualities are his malice and hypocrisy. He's hell-bent on tearing apart anyone he deems a kook, including distinguished scientists and Nobel Prize-winners. This is amusing, as Randi has no scientific credentials whatsoever (although he did once write an astrology column for a Canadian tabloid and host a paranormal-themed radio show).

In 1997, Randi threatened to fly to Sri Lanka to persuade Arthur C. Clarke to stop advocating cold fusion. (Clarke, a genuine scientific visionary, inventor of the communication satellite and award-winning author, received degrees, with honors, in physics and mathematics.) In 2001, on a BBC Radio program, Randi attacked Brian Josephson, Nobel Prize-winner and professor of physics at Cambridge University.

Why? Josephson was interested in the possible connections between quantum physics and consciousness. Randi also has a penchant for lawsuits—he once tried to sue a writer known for covering the UFO beat, simply because he printed some unflattering but verifiable information about the magician. Randi left the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) because of all the litigation against him.

Charismatic psychic Uri Geller, whose abilities have been tested by a number of prestigious laboratories, has probably been Randi's biggest target. In the process of attempting to discredit the psychic, Randi has also attacked institutions, like Stanford, intrigued by Geller's alleged abilities. He defamed two eminent scientists, Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ, calling them "incompetent." At the time, author Robert Anton Wilson wryly observed, "Randi was not there, yet he claims to know what was going on [during the experiment] better than the two scientists who were supervising it. The only way he could know better ... is if he had 100 percent accurate telepathy."

Randi is probably best known for his infamous million-dollar challenge to "any person or persons who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability of any kind" under what Randi refers to as "satisfactory observing conditions."

Ray Hyman, a leading Fellow of CSICOP, has pointed out that Randi's challenge is illegitimate from a scientific standpoint. "Scientists don't settle issues with a single test ... Proof in science happens through replication." If Randi's challenge was legitimate, he would set up a double-blind experiment which he himself wouldn't judge. But considering his hostility toward scientists receptive to paranormal phenomena, this doesn't seem likely. His "challenge" is rigged, yet he can crow that his prize goes unclaimed because paranormal phenomena simply does not exist.

Compare this outlook to the philosophy adopted by followers of Charles Fort. Forteans (a term coined by screenwriter Ben Hecht, who, along with Theodore Dreiser, H.L. Mencken and Oliver Wendell Holmes, was a member of the original Fortean Society, formed upon Fort's death in 1932) entertain the notion that anything is possible until proven otherwise.

Some are scientists, some are street musicians. They are neither gullible nor pompous, neither "true believers" in — nor coldly dismissive of—anything. And they have a sense of humor largely missing from Randi's crowd.

"In and of itself," says a man once denigrated by the skeptical movement, "skepticism has made no actual contribution to science, just as music reviews in the newspaper make no contribution to the art of composition."

The universe is full of mystery, as well as charlatans. It is up to the individual to weigh evidence objectively. Just don't use your intuition to do so, or you could be the skeptics' next target.

This article appeared in Lasvegasweekly.com, 26th January 2006
http://tinyurl.com/45srze


 
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lone wolf

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Scientists used to believe that if a human travelled at over a mile a minute, he'd have all sorts of weirdness happen. Scientists used to believe you could cure a person's every ailment by bleeding them or bad bile caused it. Scientists used to accept that tomatoes were poisonous. Science can't know everything because accepted knowledge keeps changing. I can't prove me right or you wrong. Should the unexplained happen to you, you'll know.

Woof!
 
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