Prostitution: legal-ethical discussion-debate

cdn_bc_ca

Electoral Member
May 5, 2005
389
1
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Vancouver
So if prostitution is legalized, does that mean the prostitutes will have to declare income and pay taxes?

Some thoughts on previous posts I've read:

As for safe/unsafe sex, that can be overcome with the right amount of money.
Prostitutes have a choice on what client they wish to engage. Again, money comes into play.
Surgeons do not come into contact with blood... in cases where there is blood, they are wearing gloves. If they do come into contact with blood, it is a mistake or an accident... and that is very rare. Heck, even cops wear gloves even when there is no blood but there is contact with other people.

Scientific evidence of "all women are better at BLANK than any man" or vice versa...
All women are better at getting pregnant than any man
All men are better at having erections than any women

I'm just playing with you Zzarchov ;-)
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
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Scientific evidence of "all women are better at BLANK than any man" or vice versa...
All women are better at getting pregnant than any man
All men are better at having erections than any women

I'm just playing with you Zzarchov ;-)

Many women cannot get pregnant (just like men)

Many men cannot get erections (just like women)

So I still stand by my comment :p
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
1,826
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they already have to pay taxes and income...Thats one of the ironies of our stupid laws. It's ilegal to soliciate sex ...but if you get paid for sex you have to declare it as income.

....said the unemployable parasite .....(hi Dave!!):smile:
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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So if prostitution is legalized, does that mean the prostitutes will have to declare income and pay taxes?

Of course, if they earn enough. But then the government getting a cut of the action isn't really a surprise is it?
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
As for safe/unsafe sex, that can be overcome with the right amount of money.
Prostitutes have a choice on what client they wish to engage. Again, money comes into play.
Surgeons do not come into contact with blood... in cases where there is blood, they are wearing gloves. If they do come into contact with blood, it is a mistake or an accident... and that is very rare. Heck, even cops wear gloves even when there is no blood but there is contact with other people.

If the prostitute is really safe she won't come into contact with any bodily fluids. As for unsafe sex as far as worker saftey goes I couldn't imagine that being legal unless both parties were tested.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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Who remembers Dave's rant on the "Product" being less than stellar among street prositutes? Wasn't that one of the times he got banned by jON?
 

unspoken

Nominee Member
Jun 3, 2005
64
0
6
SK
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Here's the problems I have with legalization:

1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.

2. There is really no good balance to how long they should go between tests. If they have to go too often, then it puts another big burden on our already fragile public health care system (unless, of course, you privatized this for them and made them pay for it, but that's a whole other discussion). If they go too long, then the more people could possibly become infected if the prostitute does indeed become infected with an STD. And how many of those johns are going to be exclusive to that prostitute? Maybe 1 or 2 at most, others would be using other prostitutes as well, exposing them to possible infection and also possibly having sex with those not in the field, which brings the public danger.

3. Career perception and sustainability. Removing the stigma from it does make it seem "not so bad" in some people's eyes, and in a sense almost makes it so at least a few would consider it a career option. Personally I think people should aspire to become doctors, teachers, business people, construction workers, tradespeople, or pretty much anything else instead of prostitutes.

Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work. So, because they have little training in other fields, they basically go into the "underground" scene where all the dangers apply again. My second point would be this...I almost think one could compare it to a career as a pro athlete, it doesn't last very long. The big difference between the two is I can't imagine any prostitute pulling down multi-millions a year to be set for life like an athlete would. And at the risk of sounding like a jerk, think of the mind of any random guy who would go out looking for a prostitute. Now, being fickle, how many of them are going to choose the decent looking, new to the scene 20 year old over the aged and worn 35-40 year old? The vast majority, so these other prostitutes wouldn't be making the type of money you would consider to be an income that could sustain a decent quality of life.

4. Nobody has really said anything to what the psychological effects are of the trade amongst those who provide it. But without any numbers, I'd bet that if they did a study on prostitutes before they started, and a few years after they started, that the vast majority would show that their psychological welfare has decreased significantly since they started. Why? Because how many of these prostitutes, regardless of the legality, would have a great level of self-esteem/personal satisfaction with themselves, knowing that this is what they do for a living. My guess would be not a lot.

Just something to chew on.
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
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Honour our Fallen
Who remembers Dave's rant on the "Product" being less than stellar among street prositutes? Wasn't that one of the times he got banned by jON?

Your reaching unf...You can't really remember even how it was used...dude you should have gone to bed long before this act of desperation.By the by your becoming very tedious in the quest.


Actually as I stated years ago in said thread I'm very much in favor of legalised prostitution. And actually have in the past had prostitutes as friends. The only reason jON banned me for that, was, it was jON *sniffles*. And whilst talking about the buisness I refered to it and used the term product for certain aspects of the buisness.. Which it is.

Now let me ask the people here.Is it demeaning to prostitutes to say that one would like to see them treated fairly,be protected,and not abused in selling their product.

For that is exactly what got me banned. and now you trying to reach out from like the worst aspects of the vine and hit me with it again , in a thread in a galaxy so far away from that hellhole is sooooo unfy do...but i still love and adore you ....
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.

No one is arguing that.


Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.


So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.

The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
67
48
Honour our Fallen
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.

No one is arguing that.


Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.


So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.

The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?


Why do you consider it bad? On what grounds, moral, religous? It's a trade like any other. Albiet a trade that takes a certain person to want to enter.


Now the enter issue is a whole other story. Due to the nature of who is controlling it, there is a plethora of sex slaves, appernatly even in Canada. which is just another reason for it to be legalised and let it evolve as a viable buisness.
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
67
48
Honour our Fallen
Let me quote William Blake here:
"Prisons are built on bricks of the law,Brothels are built on bricks of religion."
Just remember it's few hundred years old now, and writtten in England.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Here's the problems I have with legalization:

1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.

Like other licensing, you pay a fee to cover the costs of the process. Through bordello licensing and other fees the various costs are covered. Don't forget vice brings in a lot of sin tax as well. So the costs of administrating this whole things isn't going to come even close to what will be collected from it.

2. There is really no good balance to how long they should go between tests. If they have to go too often, then it puts another big burden on our already fragile public health care system (unless, of course, you privatized this for them and made them pay for it, but that's a whole other discussion). If they go too long, then the more people could possibly become infected if the prostitute does indeed become infected with an STD. And how many of those johns are going to be exclusive to that prostitute? Maybe 1 or 2 at most, others would be using other prostitutes as well, exposing them to possible infection and also possibly having sex with those not in the field, which brings the public danger.

Many people pay for their own medical tests such as professional drivers, People working in the adult film industry must produce a medical certificate in order to work and all of these concerns are already dealt with effectively there. So I see no reason that it wouldn't apply in this case as well. The brothel that the worker operates out of would be obligated to ensure all standards are being met by the workers and open to inspection like any other business that is regulated by the government.

3. Career perception and sustainability. Removing the stigma from it does make it seem "not so bad" in some people's eyes, and in a sense almost makes it so at least a few would consider it a career option. Personally I think people should aspire to become doctors, teachers, business people, construction workers, tradespeople, or pretty much anything else instead of prostitutes.

I agree but then who would take the garbage to the dump, clean up the operating rooms and wash dishes in restaurants? It takes all kinds to make the world go around and while this is already going on regardless of the position in med school or law school, or whatever employment people aspire to, some of them are going to use prostitution to get the money to pay for it and support themselves while they do that.

Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work. So, because they have little training in other fields, they basically go into the "underground" scene where all the dangers apply again. My second point would be this...I almost think one could compare it to a career as a pro athlete, it doesn't last very long. The big difference between the two is I can't imagine any prostitute pulling down multi-millions a year to be set for life like an athlete would. And at the risk of sounding like a jerk, think of the mind of any random guy who would go out looking for a prostitute. Now, being fickle, how many of them are going to choose the decent looking, new to the scene 20 year old over the aged and worn 35-40 year old? The vast majority, so these other prostitutes wouldn't be making the type of money you would consider to be an income that could sustain a decent quality of life.

Well I would say first off that many STDs are treatable. So that there would be a time they couldn't work but once finished the course of treatment and pronounced cured by a physician, the worker can go back to work. I would go further to suggest that should there be a need then a portion of the wages from each worker could be collected much like employment insurance to cover the missed days of work due to this sort of occurrence.

Some make huge bank while others make just enough to get by. Such is life eh.
You do sound a bit like a jerk for referring to some mindset of a guy, but I understand the point you are trying to make here. Women use prostitutes too and so it's not as gender based as one might think. As well I would suggest that the mindset is one of someone who wants to get off and have some fun without the strings of a relationship or fretting over the nuances of the dating scene. It's the stereotype that attaches a stigma to things and once you educate and remove the fears, the stereotype falls away and along with it the stigma.

There will always be someone who falls through the cracks and will work the street without abiding any regulations due to other problems like addiction, abuse, mental health issues and so on. And rather than a punitive approach, one of harm reduction should be considered to get the issues resolved and I would suggest the majority of people who consistently remain at that level would be minimal.

4. Nobody has really said anything to what the psychological effects are of the trade amongst those who provide it. But without any numbers, I'd bet that if they did a study on prostitutes before they started, and a few years after they started, that the vast majority would show that their psychological welfare has decreased significantly since they started. Why? Because how many of these prostitutes, regardless of the legality, would have a great level of self-esteem/personal satisfaction with themselves, knowing that this is what they do for a living. My guess would be not a lot.

Just something to chew on.

You know, I think again that it returns to getting rid of the stigma attached to the profession. Some people wash out of law because of the high pressure it exerts upon them. But that isn't to say we should get rid of that profession.

Self esteem is a mental health issue that spans all walks of life and age groups. Regulating this industry would allow for a level of scrutiny never before seen and some real answers to the problems that are ripe within it could be examined and addressed. But I suggest that should the stigma be removed, a livable wage set as a mandatory requirement and good working conditions with people you like, you would not have any more problem with self esteem than anyone in any other profession.

You've raised some really good points here. Nicely done.
 
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IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
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I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.

No one is arguing that.


Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.


So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.

The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?

Bad is subjective. It obviously has a place in our society and has since the dawn of time. So whether you legalize it or not, it will still be there. The only question is damage control, managability, and taxation/benifits. All 3 point to legalization as the better way to go. Treat it exactly like a job.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work.

There were some ER ellipsoids about a surgeon that had aids. I am not sure what the final resolution was. Anyway, there is probably virtually no risk if the service provided is hand jobs with the use of gloves and condoms. I suspect different clubs would have different licensing requirements based on the services provided.