Actually, if prostitution were legal, the prostitutes wouldn't have to be out at night on the streets, and would be able to work in safer environments.
Prostitution: legal-ethical discussion-debate
- Thread starter Kreskin
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Actually, if prostitution were legal, the prostitutes wouldn't have to be out at night on the streets, and would be able to work in safer environments.
Speak for yourself. Sounds like you've absorbed a little too much from the lunatic fringe of the women's movement, though most of the rest of what you say suggests you're actually pretty conservative on these issues. I suggest you haven't really thought through your position very well yet.
Blackleaf:
Right now the problem is the prostitutes are on streets, or more often, are eastern european teenagers abducted at gunpoint and chained in the back of warehouses.
When you legalize it, there may end up being more prostitutes (though I doubt it, since "shortages" in the market are made up for with slaves currently)
But those prostitutes would probably have discreet offices or work from their own home, out of sight.
Lets face it, their business really doesn't want to be seen either. If given the opportunity the average John is going to go a discreet office with a woman with a clean bill of health. He's not gonna be lead by some armed thug into a dingy backroom with a toothless crack***** who seems to say "if you don't use a rubber you will pee blood for the rest of your short life".
Personally I too think prostitution is disturbing on a personal level. That said, academically I don't see why someone being a pro-boxer (proffessional violence, hurting people for a living) is respectable and even admirable but being a porn star or prostitute (proffessional sex, making people feel good for a living) is abhorid.
Don't get me wrong, I do think its shameful..but I also realise thats an irrational emotion from how I was raised.
Right now the problem is the prostitutes are on streets, or more often, are eastern european teenagers abducted at gunpoint and chained in the back of warehouses.
When you legalize it, there may end up being more prostitutes (though I doubt it, since "shortages" in the market are made up for with slaves currently)
But those prostitutes would probably have discreet offices or work from their own home, out of sight.
Lets face it, their business really doesn't want to be seen either. If given the opportunity the average John is going to go a discreet office with a woman with a clean bill of health. He's not gonna be lead by some armed thug into a dingy backroom with a toothless crack***** who seems to say "if you don't use a rubber you will pee blood for the rest of your short life".
Personally I too think prostitution is disturbing on a personal level. That said, academically I don't see why someone being a pro-boxer (proffessional violence, hurting people for a living) is respectable and even admirable but being a porn star or prostitute (proffessional sex, making people feel good for a living) is abhorid.
Don't get me wrong, I do think its shameful..but I also realise thats an irrational emotion from how I was raised.
I have yet to read a single argument that convinces me it is anything but exactly the right thing to do to utterly legalize prostitution. With no more regulation than that which surrounds a bar or restaurant. Public health, minimum age and safety - after that, back off.
The business of the state, and of you moralizers (I mean that in a very bad way) has nothing to do with my personal life, including my sexuality.
For anyone to say the state should keep prostitution illegal is to say that what I do with my penis is their business.
I must emphatically demand you take your hands - and nose - out of my pants.
If I make an agreement to do something with another person, and that agreement is freely entered into, and there is no third party harm (beyond what one can reasonably expect in a city) - then what exactly is your justification in making this any of your business?
That is a serious question, and I'd love an answer.
Speak to me not of the ills of prostitution, those are almost entirely caused by the illegal nature of the trade (see the prohibition against liquor, for example) and the shame and humiliation placed on the sex trade workers by the religious.
For shame, prohibitionists - your attitudes and politics are what is beating, maiming and killing these workers.
Pangloss
The business of the state, and of you moralizers (I mean that in a very bad way) has nothing to do with my personal life, including my sexuality.
For anyone to say the state should keep prostitution illegal is to say that what I do with my penis is their business.
I must emphatically demand you take your hands - and nose - out of my pants.
If I make an agreement to do something with another person, and that agreement is freely entered into, and there is no third party harm (beyond what one can reasonably expect in a city) - then what exactly is your justification in making this any of your business?
That is a serious question, and I'd love an answer.
Speak to me not of the ills of prostitution, those are almost entirely caused by the illegal nature of the trade (see the prohibition against liquor, for example) and the shame and humiliation placed on the sex trade workers by the religious.
For shame, prohibitionists - your attitudes and politics are what is beating, maiming and killing these workers.
Pangloss
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This is interesting. Although if it was a controlled environment like a parlor then there should be other ways to protect woman.
You know part of me has wondered before if what you said is true. Addict is a subjective word but if you have a job as lucrative as prostitution you can afford whatever you want.
I never heard that prostitutes have trouble making a living. Of course not everyone will be good at it just as not everyone is good at business. Or do I misunderstand this? Is it that they can make a good living but have to be discrete about how they spend it? I don't think that can be the case. Otherwise how would they pay for the hotel rooms for their clients.
s243a:
Market rules are in play here: where a lot of money can be made, there will be a growing supply, driving prices down. Some prostitutes can make alright money, but certainly not the vast majority of street prostitutes.
Just like everything else, it depends on overhead, cost per service and amount of business.
But the idea of rich hookers, or even middle class ones, is mostly Hollywood.
Pangloss
Market rules are in play here: where a lot of money can be made, there will be a growing supply, driving prices down. Some prostitutes can make alright money, but certainly not the vast majority of street prostitutes.
Just like everything else, it depends on overhead, cost per service and amount of business.
But the idea of rich hookers, or even middle class ones, is mostly Hollywood.
Pangloss
The word is Exploitation. There are other reasons, other than personal choice, for which one becomes a prostitute. Drugs and abuse can be a factor in forcing a person into this profession. And most likely this factor was introduced by a third party... the pimp. So, although the prostitute you freely entered into, the agreement that is ;-), you might want to stop and think who controls this person and really how much of the money you paid actually ends up in their pocket.
If prostitution is really how they make it out in the movies or documentaries I've seen, then I don't think how legalizing it would change anything. There would still be drugs, alchohol, and abuse for the ones that stand out on street corners. Making it legal doesn't mean that they will magically set up the Mustang Ranch of Canada for you to enjoy. Chances are, they will still be there on the street corner years after prostitution is legal.
That's my opinion.
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The thing is, they will only go there if there is a market for it.
Again, why would a John (who often get robbed by pimps) go to some drug addicted hooker on the street corner, risk getting robbed himself etc
When he could go somewhere discreet, proffessional and legal.
If the options are possible injury, death, exposure and jail time for hiring a bootleg hooker or discretion and safety for a legal hooker, what are the majority of Johns going to do?
It is certain that there is still bootleg liquer after prohibition ended..but there is far less of it, and most booze is now drank in safer conditions.
Again, why would a John (who often get robbed by pimps) go to some drug addicted hooker on the street corner, risk getting robbed himself etc
When he could go somewhere discreet, proffessional and legal.
If the options are possible injury, death, exposure and jail time for hiring a bootleg hooker or discretion and safety for a legal hooker, what are the majority of Johns going to do?
It is certain that there is still bootleg liquer after prohibition ended..but there is far less of it, and most booze is now drank in safer conditions.
cdn_bc:
Employment is exploitation. Please, I learned that before I knew my multiplication tables. Hire me as a labourer - you are exploiting human time and ability for gain, as am I. Hire me as a philosopher - you are exploiting human time and ability for gain, as am I.
How is a blowjob different?
Both sides know what they want, both sides are free to make a deal (or not) - in economics it would be seen as a mutually beneficial exchange.
"There are other reasons, other than personal choice. . ." for me to have been a journalist, or now a stagehand - I would much rather be riding my bicycle in New Zealand and sleeping in my multi-million dollar inherited home - sadly I am the child of civil servants and I have to work all my life.
I know drug addicts that work in film and theatre - should these industries be outlawed because of drugs?
I know I am being disingenuous - drug addiction as a way to slavery so the pimp can recruit and control his or her prostitute. Sure it happens. Why?
Because it is an illegal trade, silly! How do you do this when the trade is legal, licenses are issued, receipts are given, and medical exams are mandated?
Remember the prohibition on liquor? What happened? The producers became criminals, hoodlums made fortunes distributing it, entire police forces were corrupted. Lots of people said it was because of the evil nature of demon rum that all this was happening.
But when the prohibition ended, the gangsters had no cash flow. Police forces were no longer being bribed. Rivals were no longer being gunned down in the street.
I don't think it is possible to draw a clearer picture - the Fraser Report and almost all of John Lowman's body of work (SFU Sociology/Criminology) all say the same thing and have done so for years.
If you want prostitutes to stop getting murdered and maimed - legalize prostitution.
If you want children out of prostitution - legalize it.
If you want organized crime out of prostitution - legalize it.
If you want to slow the spread of STDs - legalize it.
The list goes on and on. . .
Pangloss
Employment is exploitation. Please, I learned that before I knew my multiplication tables. Hire me as a labourer - you are exploiting human time and ability for gain, as am I. Hire me as a philosopher - you are exploiting human time and ability for gain, as am I.
How is a blowjob different?
Both sides know what they want, both sides are free to make a deal (or not) - in economics it would be seen as a mutually beneficial exchange.
"There are other reasons, other than personal choice. . ." for me to have been a journalist, or now a stagehand - I would much rather be riding my bicycle in New Zealand and sleeping in my multi-million dollar inherited home - sadly I am the child of civil servants and I have to work all my life.
I know drug addicts that work in film and theatre - should these industries be outlawed because of drugs?
I know I am being disingenuous - drug addiction as a way to slavery so the pimp can recruit and control his or her prostitute. Sure it happens. Why?
Because it is an illegal trade, silly! How do you do this when the trade is legal, licenses are issued, receipts are given, and medical exams are mandated?
Remember the prohibition on liquor? What happened? The producers became criminals, hoodlums made fortunes distributing it, entire police forces were corrupted. Lots of people said it was because of the evil nature of demon rum that all this was happening.
But when the prohibition ended, the gangsters had no cash flow. Police forces were no longer being bribed. Rivals were no longer being gunned down in the street.
I don't think it is possible to draw a clearer picture - the Fraser Report and almost all of John Lowman's body of work (SFU Sociology/Criminology) all say the same thing and have done so for years.
If you want prostitutes to stop getting murdered and maimed - legalize prostitution.
If you want children out of prostitution - legalize it.
If you want organized crime out of prostitution - legalize it.
If you want to slow the spread of STDs - legalize it.
The list goes on and on. . .
Pangloss
And no, prostitution is not like it is portrayed in the movies. Those are movies. . .you know, stories. Fiction.
Pangloss
Pangloss
So what if there is prostitution on the street if it is not in a residential area and everything around there is closed. What is the issue. Are people worried that the prostitutes will talk them or their partner into blowing a few hundred dollars in one night.
Some hookers can make over 1000 dollars in one night for one trick. That is not exactly poor. Most on the street will at least make 100 Friday and Saturday. Probably a lot more if they pull more then one trick and offer more then a hand job. Nothing is stopping them from working a regular job during the week if they can't get some regulars to call in.
The very real problems with street prostitution are well documented. Increases in property crimes, littering, violence and drug dealing all seem to follow street-level prostitution.
Street prostitutes in non-residential areas tend to be attacked more often; perhaps because there is nobody there to see the john picking them up.
Illegal street prostitution is nothing but danger and trouble - for all concerned.
Make it legal and get it off the street.
Pangloss
Where do you get your numbers from???
Sure some hookers (in a city the size of Calgary, maybe 10 or so on any given night) make good money - but if the lucre is so good, how come they aren't all landladys with apartment towers?
Seriously, back those numbers up before you expect anyone to believe that claim.
Pangloss