Pope’s Message a Dismal Failure in USA.

[RanchHand]

Hardly "Pope’s Message a Dismal Failure in USA." is it?

Sure it is, RanchHand. Let me repeat again what the Gallop poll says:

"However, even among committed Catholics, a slim majority seem to be at odds with the church's positions on premarital sex, embryonic stem-cell research, divorce, and the death penalty."

If even among devoted, conservative Catholics, a slim majority disagrees with the Pope, then his message is a dismal failure in USA.

So you told us 52% of 'Catholics' accepted abortion. You said this results in the pope's message being a dismal failure. Reviewing the entire poll tells us that your figure of 52% is for those Catholics who no longer practice their religion. For practicing Catholics, the number is less than half that figure. But even though the value drops by over one half, your description stays the same? If 52% is a dismal failure and 24% is also a dismal failure, then what would the percentage have to be for it to not be a dismal failure? What's the SirJosephRupert cutoff percent for dismal failure?
That would be like liberals supporting segregation in the Southern USA by a slim margin. That would be a failure of the liberal message, wouldn’t it? This is no different.

Hardly "Pope’s Message a Dismal Failure in USA." is it? Approve abortion 24%. Approve homosexual relations 44%.

Absolute numbers are not really relevant, RanchHand. The fact is, even most devout, conservative Catholics disagree with the Pope by a small margin, according to the article.
Yes they do but what does that have to do with my statement of 24% and 44% that you appear to be responding to?

Not to mention that in another thread, on Gay marriage, you wouldn't accept a slim majority as meaningful.

A slim majority is not good enough to ban gay marriage, as they did in California (I will have more to say about this later, I am posting a thread tomorrow, stay tuned). However, it is highly significant, when devout followers of a leader (Pope) disagree with him on important issues.

That slim majorities are meaningless for deciding gay rights but are conclusive for discrediting a pope appears to be opinion, in my opinion. Your opinion is less informed than mine as I receive my news and current event information from much more diverse sources than you.


If you don't accept the validity of the groups being sampled, why are you citing the poll?????

Whoa, RanchHand, there is no need to shout. I do accept the validity of the poll; I am not the one questioning the poll. I think the poll is accurate and very significant. It shows that Catholics in general are not in agreement with the pope. And what is astounding, even devout, conservative Catholics disagree with pope (by a small margin) on many important issues.

Evidently I need to shout louder because you didn't hear it correctly. Read it again. Of course I didn't say you don't accept the validity of the poll. I said you didn't accept the validity of the groups being sampled, therefore why would you use the poll that is based upon these groups you don't accept. Here is your statements saying you don't accept the groups upon which the poll is based.
""So committed or not is a phony argument. As far as I am concerned, anybody who claims to be a Catholic is one"
Note that the 2 sentences that preceed this one are your sentences and you are indicating that the 2 groups used in the poll, committed and not are phony and you believe there is no distinction between the two.

 

[Cliffy]

""So committed or not is a phony argument. As far as I am concerned, anybody who claims to be a Catholic is one"

There are not enough asylums to commit all catholics! Considering that a majority of humans are religious I have concluded that Earth is an asylum.

 

[YukonJack]

Re #35.

The number of wife-beaters is not any higher among Catholics than among atheists. The number of pedophiles among priests is not any higher than among atheists. According to any poll you want to quote.

The number of Catholics who support abortion, gay marriage and death penalty is equal to the number of salad bar "Catholics" who want their cake and eat it too. Pathetic, sorry human beings such as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi or any renegade CINO (Catholic in name only) who should not attempt to receive Holy Communion, if they had any sense of shame and any trace of honest dignity.

The Church and they, themselves would be better off without each other.

And "PHONEY" is a perfectly valid spelling of the word "PHONY". You, along with your spell checker, should know that.

 

[gerryh]

Re #35.

The number of wife-beaters is not any higher among Catholics than among atheists. The number of pedophiles among priests is not any higher than among atheists. According to any poll you want to quote.

The number of Catholics who support abortion, gay marriage and death penalty is equal to the number of salad bar "Catholics" who want their cake and eat it too. Pathetic, sorry human beings such as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi or any renegade CINO (Catholic in name only) who should not attempt to receive Holy Communion, if they had any sense of shame and any trace of honest dignity.

The Church and they, themselves would be better off without each other.

And "PHONEY" is a perfectly valid spelling of the word "PHONY". You, king of all phonies, should know that.

interesting how exclusive you are.

 

[YukonJack]

"interesting how exclusive you are."

gerryh, please humour me and be a bit more specific?

 

[JLM]

"Catholics have a lot more sense, lot more intelligence than I gave them credit for;"- Tell if I'm wrong Sir Joe, but I get the distinct impression, that no matter who it is or what group it is, one of the main criteria is that that meet YOUR standards. Is NO one else's opinion as good as yours? Or is it just that THEY state opinions while YOU state facts?

 

[gerryh]

"interesting how exclusive you are."

gerryh, please humour me and be a bit more specific?

The number of Catholics who support abortion, gay marriage and death penalty is equal to the number of salad bar "Catholics" who want their cake and eat it too. Pathetic, sorry human beings such as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi or any renegade CINO (Catholic in name only) who should not attempt to receive Holy Communion, if they had any sense of shame and any trace of honest dignity.

The Church and they, themselves would be better off without each other.

Is that specific enough for you?

 

[YukonJack]

Re #47.

gerryh I am not a mind-reader.

You quoted me twice without saying what you think.

So, tell me. And this is not JEOPARDY. Your answer does not have to be a question.

 

[gerryh]

I stated what I thought....I......FIND....IT......INTERESTING...... THAT...... YOU... ARE....SO.......EXCLUSIVE......

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Note that the 2 sentences that preceed this one are your sentences and you are indicating that the 2 groups used in the poll, committed and not are phony and you believe there is no distinction between the two.

RanchHand, sure I consider the distinction to be phony, artificial. Who decides what constitutes a committed Catholic? Is it decided by the Church? Then that is a circular argument. All Catholics support Church’s position, because Church only considers those who agree with its position to be Catholic.

As far as I am concerned, anybody who calls himself a Catholic is one. Now, some may be more committed than others. However, as the polls suggests, Pope’s message is not popular with committed or uncommitted Catholics.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"Catholics have a lot more sense, lot more intelligence than I gave them credit for;"- Tell if I'm wrong Sir Joe, but I get the distinct impression, that no matter who it is or what group it is, one of the main criteria is that that meet YOUR standards. Is NO one else's opinion as good as yours? Or is it just that THEY state opinions while YOU state facts?

JLM, they state an opinion, and I state an opinion. But I am sure you won’t be surprised, only my opinion makes sense to me.

 

[Francis2004]

The number of Catholics who support abortion, gay marriage and death penalty is equal to the number of salad bar "Catholics" who want their cake and eat it too. Pathetic, sorry human beings such as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi or any renegade CINO (Catholic in name only) who should not attempt to receive Holy Communion, if they had any sense of shame and any trace of honest dignity.

The Church and they, themselves would be better off without each other.

gerry, if the Catholic Church did not have any opposition within it it would never have change. At one time it was permitted for Priests to marry and now it is illegal. Change should happen for the good of the Church. I am not saying all change is good and should be accepted but at some point some change is required for progress to take place. If we did not have change we would still be in the dark ages..

 

[gerryh]

gerry, if the Catholic Church did not have any opposition within it it would never have change. At one time it was permitted for Priests to marry and now it is illegal. Change should happen for the good of the Church. I am not saying all change is good and should be accepted but at some point some change is required for progress to take place. If we did not have change we would still be in the dark ages..

What you quoted I did not say......that was a quote from yukonjack.

 

[Cliffy]

What you quoted I did not say......that was a quote from yukonjack.

Its becoming epidemic. Yukon Jack, are you a ventriloquist?

 

[Cliffy]

Duh!

Ah! You were just trying to pick his nose then!

 

[karrie]

I find it funny that I've argued many tenets of the church with nuns and priests and lei ministers, and not ONE has tried to tell me that I need to toe the line or get out. Not one has said disagreement excludes me from a single holy sacrament.

And SJP, I also find it funny that you require an article to prove to you that gerry and I aren't abnormalities in the church. Well... I guess I shouldn't... who am I to you but a random voice on the net, who may or may not be all I claim. But, my experience with the Church has been that the dogma of the Vatican doesn't always equal the hearts of the congregations. There is dissent, disagreement. We've been raised not to be mindless puppets (regardless of how atheists like to insult and label us for kicks), and that sticks right through to analyzing the readings, arguing the 'rules', and forming our own opinions.

While I stand up loudly for the church when I see someone on the outside kicking and poking at it and expecting it to change for them, who don't even belong or make an attempt to understand it, I do think change from within is inevitable, necessary, and well within the rights of its congregation.

And anyone who thinks I'm not entitled to that opinion can shove it. I'll still be there Sunday mornings.

 

[Said1]

I would agree with Kerri. Also, the Vatican doesn't micro-manage. There is dissent and varying differences among church practices internationally (although I can't think of one off the top of my head, too early!) - we are allowed to argue our points and state our cases without fear of being outcast in most (perhaps not all) cases.

 

[Niflmir]

The stats you provided are for non-practicing Catholics as measured by Gallop.

Sorry RanchHand, that argument won’t wash. First, how do you know who is a committed Catholic? Somebody who attends Church regularly? Suppose he also is a wife beater, is he still a committed Catholic?

Or a Priest who is involved in child sexual abuse. Is he a committed Catholic? So it is not really for anybody to say who is committed Catholic and who isn’t. Now, it is true that those who attend church regularly tend to be more conservative. However, even here Pope has nothing to cheer about.

However, even among committed Catholics, a slim majority seem to be at odds with the church's positions on premarital sex, embryonic stem-cell research, divorce, and the death penalty.

This is what the news article says. So Church’s teachings do not fair well even among the so called ‘committed’ Catholics, although obviously they fair better than among Catholics as a whole.

So committed or not is a phony argument. As far as I am concerned, anybody who claims to be a Catholic is one.

Keep in mind, that for political/tax purposes, the Catholic church claims that anyone who was confirmed/baptised and did not pay the church to be excommunicated is a Catholic. The vatican has a big list somewhere, and I am on it, regardless of the fact that I identify as an Atheist. I refuse to pay them to identify my religious beliefs appropriately. As of now, they are claiming membership of something like 1/6 of the world population.

With that in mind, the Catholic church cannot have it both ways. If they want to claim me as a Catholic for the purposes of claiming political influence, then they also have to claim that a large proportion of their ranks are (apparently) heretics.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Karrie, said1, you are really saying what I have said. To me, the division between committed and non committed Catholics is arbitrary and doesn’t make sense, they are all Catholics.

Karrie, you said the following:

While I stand up loudly for the church when I see someone on the outside kicking and poking at it and expecting it to change for them,

That makes you a committed Catholic, whether you attend the Church regularly or not (and regardless of your position on the issues).


But, my experience with the Church has been that the dogma of the Vatican doesn't always equal the hearts of the congregations. There is dissent, disagreement.

Isn’t that precisely what I said in my thread? Catholics by and large don’t agree with many of Church’s teachings. They are more liberal, more tolerant, more progressive than non Catholics, according to the Gallop poll.

Said1, you said the following:

There is dissent and varying differences among church practices internationally (although I can't think of one off the top of my head, too early!) - we are allowed to argue our points and state our cases without fear of being outcast in most (perhaps not all) cases.

Again, that makes my point. One doesn’t have t be a regular church goer; one doesn’t have to agree with the Church to be a committed Catholic. And many Catholics don’t agree with the Church’s teachings on many issues such as abortion, homosexuality, premarital sex etc.

 

[JLM]

It would be nice if everyone just got away from these denominational religions and just followed the wisdom of the Bible. You think people would clue in the minute they are asked for money. Had a J.W. at the door yesterday,but she didn't stay long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!